I hate phrases!!!

[Paulh]

I don\'t feel need for any kind of phrases or melodic loops either. I\'m always kind of rolling my eyes when I hear them in peoples music. Nobody\'s propably ever gonna find out you\'re using them except other musicians. But yeah, if speed is an issue, then it\'s more than acceptable IMO.

[Alexcremers]

Take 10 phrases, give them to 10 composers and you have 10 different pieces of music. Beautiful, isn\'t it?

------------
Alex Cremers

[Tumababa]

That might actually be a good experiment to try on these forums.....

[Alan Lastufka]

Originally posted by Tumababa:
That might actually be a good experiment to try on these forums..... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">If you (or someone else) can supply the phrases, count me in...

AL

[Houston Haynes]

Imparting proper phrasing on a musical instrument is difficult to impossible - and they are a far sight more artificial than the expressive potential of the human voice. The best interim solution is to have samples with some modicum of expression and phrasing imparted in them, and then allow the composer to work with that. It\'s confining, but with the right kind of technical and musical savvy can be very gratifying.

I think that the acoustically modeled voices from Yamaha and Zero-G sound promising, but I think they are for a different purpose. Plus there\'s the issue of ensemble building. Do you want to have a stack of machines just to hole SATB of Vocaloid? images/icons/shocked.gif

If phrase libraries don\'t suit your purpose, don\'t buy them. I\'ve been waiting for something like BelaDMedia\'s intimacy and musical immediacy for some time. I think that having both multi-samples and phrase-based instruments to be a boon.

It\'s all good. images/icons/grin.gif

[Bela D Media]

Phrases - VOTA words - Voices of Faith.

The first thing I want to shed some light on is this \"I want words in any language sung by an entire choir - all words in any key so I can make my own lines\"

Think of how many words there are in one language and how many ways there are to say each. No choir I know of (and I have access to many) would even think to sit in on a session of that magnitude. Voices are not guitars. We can only expect so many hours from them.

Zero G has come very close and I can only tip my hat and say YIKES! I hate to see that recording bill!!

I think we all owe Nick Phoenix and team a major thank you for the concept they came up with to somewhat get us there.
It is sheer simplicity masked by sheer brilliance.

Because of Nick and Zero G, we can fool the average bear.

And a great point has been made - Only we know what we are using. Your client does not - nor do they, in most cases, care.
I come from the audio post world and needle drop is huge and when you can say \"Yes, I can give you a full choir singing in Latin\" you just made a sale as a composer.

Now, you have to be a bit smarter than that when using phrases. Anyone can drag and drop. With VOF, we have gone deeper.
We have provided historic hymns and chants in all keys broken into well over a 100 + phrases and allow you to use them in CHOIR , MEN or WOMEN mode.

They are in Latin - very melismatic on their own. If you take a phrase that reads 1 2 3 4 - you can make it read 4 3 2 1 or 3 2 1 4 and so on.. you ARE in control. Don\'t forget you have that same phrase in 13 keys.

I truly belive this is major.

I do respect what is being said in the negative about phrases. Don\'t forget I am a composer too. I know what you mean. But when I am handed the color red - I can easily make 20 shades there of.

Best
Francis Belardino

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Any tool can be used creatively. There are 1000 interesting things to do with those SOV phrases. Load them into Reaktor, and they\'re a whole other universe, which can\'t be recognized as the original or as anything \"preconceived.\"

Those SOV phrases have been a tremendous boon to me over the years...if you don\'t want to dig deeper and find the creative ways to use them, that\'s your loss. They\'re fantastically useful, and hardly a cop-out. Think outside the box!!

[Alan Lastufka]

Bela D and Bruce,

You both make very good points and I think we can all prove that when VOF comes out... we\'re bound to see and hear all the user demos that will follow (much like all the GPO stuff that\'s coming).

When I first heard about loops and samples and was very underinformed, I thought, wow, the end of music... no more originallity, just thousands of Puff Daddies all using the same lines over and over. Then I took the time to educate myself all on all of this and listened to the demos and as hinted at in Francis\' post;

If I and the painter next to me are sharing the same tube of red oil paint, will we both paint the same color/shade/tone/mood/pic...?

AL

[vash]

Bruce you seem to be one of the main reaktor users on this forum.

Could you ellaborate on \"Load them into Reaktor, and they\'re a whole other universe, which can\'t be recognized as the original or as anything \"preconceived.\"?\"

Like which ensembles do you use for this purposes, etc. Thanks!

[PeterRoos]

Originally posted by JudasCloud:
After deleting all of the useless phrases in SOV I ended up with only 1.4GB of sounds. Phrases are just as stupid to me as if some made a book of short, one bar pieces of music and said, \"You can use these to build your own compositions!!\" Or some one selling a book of sentences to writers.

I can understand some one using phrases if they have to come up with something REALLY fast for a job, but not anywhere else. I CAN\'T understand how some could use a phrase from one of these libraries in a piece of his \"real music\" and still say, without feeling like he was lying, that he had \"written it\". <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Why then did you buy SOV?

[PeterRoos]

Originally posted by JudasCloud:
I hate phrases!!! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">From Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Last Ork

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Originally posted by Alan Lastufka:
Bela D and Bruce,

If I and the painter next to me are sharing the same tube of red oil paint, will we both paint the same color/shade/tone/mood/pic...?

AL <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I don\'t think that analogy is correct... sharing a tube of red oil paint is more comparable to sharing an instrument (ie, two composers with a trumpet).

Phrases are more like two artists each with the same stencil.

[PeterRoos]

Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:
Phrases are more like two artists each with the same stencil. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Not if you consider Bruce\'s remarks about sound design.

[Tarkio Road]

Originally posted by JudasCloud:
After deleting all of the useless phrases in SOV I ended up with only 1.4GB of sounds. Phrases are just as stupid to me as if some made a book of short, one bar pieces of music and said, \"You can use these to build your own compositions!!\" Or some one selling a book of sentences to writers.

I can understand some one using phrases if they have to come up with something REALLY fast for a job, but not anywhere else. I CAN\'T understand how some could use a phrase from one of these libraries in a piece of his \"real music\" and still say, without feeling like he was lying, that he had \"written it\". <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You can find dozens of libraries of single note choirs with enough aaaheeeooh\'s to last you a lifetime. But they will NEVER sound as good as real humans singing real words.

Why start such a negative thread on a new library that you haven\'t heard and apparently aren\'t interested in?

BTW, I do have to \"come up with something REALLY fast\" all the time. I get rough-cuts of commercial TV drama or documentary radio spots usually 1 or 2 days before the final mix has to be delivered. My clients don\'t care if there are multi-samples or performances in the final composition. But they are impressed if it sounds \"real.\" Their ears are tired of aaheeeooh choir pads.

I can\'t wait Francis!

[PeterRoos]

Right on, don\'t try to weigh originality and functionality on the same scale.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by vash:
Bruce you seem to be one of the main reaktor users on this forum.

Could you ellaborate on \"Load them into Reaktor, and they\'re a whole other universe, which can\'t be recognized as the original or as anything \"preconceived.\"?\"

Like which ensembles do you use for this purposes, etc. Thanks! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Travellizer is a great one. Grainstates, Plasma, Formator, and almost any of Martin Brinkmann\'s user ensembles are great for transforming material into the unknown.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:
Phrases are more like two artists each with the same stencil. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Who says you can\'t cut up the stencil, modify it, scramble it, shoot different materials through it...what you can do with it is unlimited.

Limitations are snares--delusions. They\'re only in your mind.

[KingIdiot]

if they are in different keys and there are lots of phrases I dont mind at all. I consider them like loop libs, and me being a tweak freak I\'d go to town on editing and making some multisamples

[Alan Lastufka]

King,

From what Francis has told me they ARE in every key and I think there is just over 75 different phrases.

I can\'t wait to go to town on chopping \'em all up and splicing different phrases together...

Should prove interesting,

AL

[Marsdy]

Check out Melodyne

http://www.celemony.com/ (\"http://www.celemony.com/\")

Many sequencers also have formant correction on pitch changes these days so there is an imense amount of scope for re-writing phrases.

[Bela D Media]

Originally posted by Alan Lastufka:
King,

From what Francis has told me they ARE in every key and I think there is just over 75 different phrases.

I can\'t wait to go to town on chopping \'em all up and splicing different phrases together...

Should prove interesting,

AL <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">75 but...
75 of the full choir - 75 of the men and 75 of the women. All the same 75 but different performers.

Think of the possibilities!!!

images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/shocked.gif

[Scott Cairns]

JudasCloud, you\'ve probably heard some of those SOV phrases in film and on TV and not even recognised them. images/icons/wink.gif

Sometimes I hear the straight vanilla phrases on something like a travel show; We\'re going to Greece this week so roll out the \"Kyrie Eleison\" phrase. But other times I hear a choir layered in a piece and cant even tell if it\'s a lib, from SOV, or real.

But with a tool like Melodyne (you beat me to it Dave!) the possibilities are endless.

On a side note, has anyone tried using melodyne on something else like brass?

A friend showed me Melodyne last week and I am about to order it.

[Scott Cairns]

On a side note, has anyone tried using melodyne on something else like brass?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Oops disregard. I found the brass demos.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Originally posted by Jamesmcwilliams:
Phrases are more like two artists each with the same stencil. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Who says you can\'t cut up the stencil, modify it, scramble it, shoot different materials through it...what you can do with it is unlimited.

Limitations are snares--delusions. They\'re only in your mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s exactly what i meant, i didn\'t mean to imply that a stencil is a poor tool... i was just trying to clear the analogy up into something i felt was more accurate.

[KingIdiot]

Alan,

agreed. I\'m anxious to hear that library. Then I\'ll decide if I want it. Its no secret that I\'m not a fan of the way Diva sounds in the demos. While I\'m sure its completely functional, and that I\'ll probably buy it at some point, I\'m just not excited about it. personal taste tho, we all know that from the stupid orchestral debates. I dont have the library so I\'m not willing to pass judgement on it till I get it.


about melodyne, guys, it pitching operations and formant shifting stuff, don\'t work so well on ensembles, and if there is alot of reverb you are probably screwed.

now one option would be, if the phrases have long sustain parts, you can loop those, and have multiple loop points in Kontakt images/icons/smile.gif Thats what I\'d do in my tweakathon images/icons/smile.gif

[charles]

Originally posted by Marsdy:
Check out Melodyne

http://www.celemony.com/ (\"http://www.celemony.com/\")

Many sequencers also have formant correction on pitch changes these days so there is an imense amount of scope for re-writing phrases. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">hi Marsdy

very cool i dont know why i didnt think of Melodyne

cheers

[Bela D Media]

\"now one option would be, if the phrases have long sustain parts, you can loop those, and have multiple loop points in Kontakt images/icons/smile.gif Thats what I\'d do in my tweakathon images/icons/smile.gif \"

Dam you for giving that away, King images/icons/smile.gif

Yes - the above is in many of the parts for that very reason.

HAlion can do this as well.

Hello Tascam?

By the way - I have indside information that the \"zipper\" noise when HALion does a XF has been fixed. It\'s about time!

[Tarkio Road]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
Alan,

agreed. I\'m anxious to hear that library. Then I\'ll decide if I want it. Its no secret that I\'m not a fan of the way Diva sounds in the demos. While I\'m sure its completely functional, and that I\'ll probably buy it at some point, I\'m just not excited about it. personal taste tho, we all know that from the stupid orchestral debates. I dont have the library so I\'m not willing to pass judgement on it till I get it.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">King - I think most of your concerns about Diva will most likely be accounted for with Diva extended. And Francis is making this available to Diva users for a song (pun intended).

I would never worry about buying a library from Francis. Once he gets some feedback, he takes care of his customers. images/icons/smile.gif

[Beckers]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:

about melodyne, guys, it pitching operations and formant shifting stuff, don\'t work so well on ensembles, and if there is alot of reverb you are probably screwed.

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I agree. I\'ve had it for one year. It\'s OK for for pitch shifting winds but its formant correction is not very accurate for instruments with more complex formants like solo strings and voice. Its not good for creating transitions. I now use it only for tuning and correcting flaws, for which it is great.

[KingIdiot]

Yes - the above is in many of the parts for that very reason. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">good deal, and smart move images/icons/smile.gif


Tarkio, yah possibly. I\'ll see for sure when I pick up Diva, which I will at some point, there\'s no doubt. There\'s nothing out there like it right now, which is surprising.

[Bela D Media]

King,
Take this for what it\'s worth.

If you do not like the sound of DIVA on the 6 demos posted I would suggest that you save your cash.
Now, I am not giving you a \"if you don\'t like it... don\'t buy it\" attitude but I stand behind my product, my singers and the composer who, in my opinion, have showcased this low cost library with honesty and passion.

The sound behind DIVA is very natural and human. There is nothing like it and maybe that is because I was the only one stupid enough to make a solo voice library for his first release.

I have always loved the female voice in film scores hence why DIVA was born. Out side of the vibrato being thick, which has it\'s place, there is nothing about DIVA that sounds bad or unusable. There is no offensive noise or bad edits and the like.

It is a true performance of the solo voice. DIVA Extended will be the same - only more features for a very \"never done before - surprising\" price.

Bottom line - What I am saying is... if you don\'t care for the sound in the demos - you won\'t care for the sound after you have spent your money and have removed the shrinkwrap.

Respectfully
FB

[WayneSim]

\"I hate phrases\"

I agree with you to some degree. I cant comment on SOV as i dont own it. I own Diva female soloists and have been finding it extremely hard to put those phrases into songs. I like pieces to flow in rythm and be able to see things in a mathical form (if you will). With performance files and the way I write. It just doesn\'t work.

I would like phrases to conform to a tempo. Thats doesn\'t mean I have to use that \"exact\" tempo. I could use any tempo that fits with that. Meaning a phrase at 100 bpm I could use in a 50 bmp, 200 bpm, 150 bpm. Really I could list heaps, it\'s all the way the song fits. Phrases could be over any amount of bars. Also could be used in different time signatures. ETC....

I understand it may be hard to conform a phrase to a tempo. But can developers please try. Take SAM Trumpets, There is 3 staco patches that comform to a tempo. When I got SAM trumpets I was writing a brass type tune at 110bpm. I changed the tempo to 112 bpm dropped in the 112 bpm SAM patch, wrote a few notes. And MAN did it sound great!!!!!!!!!! It worked great with the song. I was so happy. And best of all it was so simple to do and took no time at all. images/icons/smile.gif

I love the sound of phrases! If only I could use them. They sound so much better, becasue in most cases they are \"real\". They just sound more natural (I talking about mainly in voice samples now).

[WayneSim]

...double post...

[Bela D Media]

The DIVA performance files are in tempo 100 80 and 60. I thought to ACID them but it really does not go over well for solo voice.

I am sorry you are not finding them useful and would like to know why you cannot put them to song.

Let me know how I can help - I won\'t sleep if I have a disapoited customer images/icons/shocked.gif
fbelardino@beladmedia.com

-------
EDIT IN
-------

Now that I think on it maybe I can work on that concept a release a DIVA Performance CD.

If you guys want to toss some tips our way - we will try to meet your needs!

[WayneSim]

Originally posted by Bela D Media:
The DIVA performance files are in tempo 100 80 and 60 <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Really? What ones? Can you please give a run down of what patches or even notes fit into tempos. It would help so much! I messed around for ages to try and get a phrase to fit to a tempo. I must have done something wrong.

That\'s great news if the preformace files fit to tempos. It makes life so much easier. Also what about the moving vowels?

[Bela D Media]

Yes! The moving vowels are in 3 tempos as well.

This is our fault for not having the manuals online yet.

Email us and we will send you pdf files that explain it all.

We also have the sheet music for each performance file.

They are not DIVA 1.1 (that\'s why it\'s not online yet - Rick Chadwick is writing the manuals for us images/icons/smile.gif ) but they will give you info about tempos and etc.

I apologize for not realizing you did not yet have this information.

Email support@beladmedia.com and we will send them to you ASAP!!!

[Bela D Media]

Here is information for anyone who wants it.

I will post it on our site as well but the complete manuals are on thier way soon enough.

Soloist 1 moving vowels:
Ah Nah Zoe = 60
Lee Mah Stah = 80
Voh Soh Loh Vah = 100

Soloist 2 moving vowels:
Loo Mah Sah = 60
Thah Nye Voh = 80
Shoh Meh Lah Foh = 100

You can get the sheet music for the performance files on beladmedia.com in a few hours.

Curse of the Crow = 60 throughout

Soul of Spirits = 80 throughout

Mournful Cry = 80 throughtout

That\'s all for now.

[WayneSim]

Thanks Bela D Media for your fast replys. I also got your email. Thanks Heaps.

I\'m a little courious as to why this was not printed on the notes that came with the CD\'s. This is VERY important info IMO. But not to worry it\'s all good now!

[JudasCloud]

After deleting all of the useless phrases in SOV I ended up with only 1.4GB of sounds. Phrases are just as stupid to me as if some made a book of short, one bar pieces of music and said, \"You can use these to build your own compositions!!\" Or some one selling a book of sentences to writers.

I can understand some one using phrases if they have to come up with something REALLY fast for a job, but not anywhere else. I CAN\'T understand how some could use a phrase from one of these libraries in a piece of his \"real music\" and still say, without feeling like he was lying, that he had \"written it\".

[Alan Lastufka]

Well, until I can afford to hire a choir to sing what I write (plus the thousands in proper equipment, plus renting the space), I will be more than happy to use pre-recorded phrases.

I would love to just sit down and write my own phrase and have a choir sing it back to me, my wording, my melody, but we just aren\'t there yet...

VOTA tried, but a good friend of mine has it, he (and even NICK) has said VOTA can not handle exposed solo performances singing intelligent words in English.

So, we work with what we got and we make what we got work...

AL

[Bela D Media]

$ ... How\'s that for honesty? images/icons/grin.gif
We had no ideal DIVA would be this successful images/icons/grin.gif

Anyway, I am very glad this was helpful to you.
As I said, we will have a complete manual on our website for DIVA 1.1 that will also include downloadable sheet music for the performance files.

Should be online shortly.

[Ed]

Originally posted by JudasCloud:
After deleting all of the useless phrases in SOV I ended up with only 1.4GB of sounds. Phrases are just as stupid to me as if some made a book of short, one bar pieces of music and said, \"You can use these to build your own compositions!!\" Or some one selling a book of sentences to writers.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Did you delete the moving vowels as well? And the words are just latin and hardly stuff people would be impressed that you thought of.

\"Oh look! They sang Agnus Dei! YOU ARE THE BEST COMPOSER ON THE PLANET!\"

Ed