Recommendations on workflow?

[eegee]

Hi - I\'m relatively new at sequencing and samplers. Over the past few months, I\'ve purchased some tools (Sonar 3P, GPO, Silver, and some non-sampling VSTs like DR-008) and have just been learning the tools, midi, etc.

I\'m now ready to do a real project - so I purchased the full score to John William\'s Olympic Fanfare and Theme. While I\'m passing on composition, I do know there is a lot to learn on getting the right sounds layered correctly with the right midi data, as well as final mixing - and that\'s what I want to focus on right now.

The workflow I envisioned was to

1. Input the various parts, using dry placeholder sounds, either live via keyboard or by drawing the notes(any recommendations?)

2. Going back through and setting up the proper sound groups for each track.

3. Setting note velocities where appropriate and then drawing in the appropriate controller data.

4. Introduing the reverb and other effects

5. Mix down.

I\'d probably do 16 measures for each instrument just for positive reinforcement of hearing it come together.

I know I can\'t gain 10 years experience by making one post, but if there is any feedback on how you all approach your work flows (whether composing or just following a score), I stand to learn a lot from it.

I look forward to all of your responses.

Eric

[Bruce A. Richardson]

My only comments...if you can play, then play the parts in, at the correct tempo.

Don\'t use placeholder parts, play to the sound you\'re going to use. Otherwise, what you play will have no relevance to the sound/articulation, and you might be wasting effort.

You might want to also spend some time getting your tempo map where you want it before you begin, since tempo is going to affect the way you play and how notes relate to one another.

[galvedro]

... talking about tempo, what I usually do is play one principal part without a click, with all the expression and tempo changes I whant it to have, and then I adjust the tempo to make my notes fit the bar grid. Once this is done, I continue recording other parts as necessary.

I think it is a matter of taste, but when I have the correct tempo I can work better on dynamics. Yes, I\'m a little bit rare images/icons/tongue.gif .

[eegee]

bump...

I appreciate the responses I got so far, but isnt there somebody who feels like mentoring a bit and is willing to lay out some good pointers for us newbies?

I just spent 4 hours putting in 8 measures of score and although it is technically correct (musically) it dont sound anything like Boston Pops.

For example, I am using GPO right now (because I have NO clue how to use EWQL Silver when a trumpet has both slurs and stacatto in the same track), but even with GPO, I cant figure out how to get good attacks on my notes. It all sounds the same. I did end up using Overature to enter my 8 bars (4 trumpets, 4 f horns and tuba)and exporting to midi into Sonar. I tried playing it in, but it just sounded to sloppy to me once I keyed in 4 f horns playing 32nd notes together.

While experimentation is certainly a fall back option, life is too short to learn everything on your own. (if you want any kind of breadth to your life, that is) That is why people invest into new exciting hobbies and then drop them frusterated.

I do appreciate the feedback on tempo I got so far. However, I was really expecting some good tips from anybody who has more than a month of experience at this.

[aplanchard]

Eegee,

Basically this is the process I use for scoring:

Work Process
1. Establish Form and Initial Tempo
2. Determine Arrangement (See below)
3. Play and Edit Performance
4. Orchestrate further if necessary
5. Engineer – render, mix, effects, master

Arrangement Elements (foreground, middleground, background)
1. Melody/Counterline(s)
2. Foundation (basic rhythm)
3. Counter Rhythm (percussion or rhythmic melody/harmony/pad)
4. Fills
5. Pads/Effects (mood or rhythmic)

Hope this helps.
Allan

[JonFairhurst]

> \" but even with GPO, I cant figure out how to get good attacks on my notes. It all sounds the same.\"

The attacks from GPO are based on velocity. Try maxing the velocity by hand, and then work the mod-wheel for dynamics. See if that helps.

Still, it\'s unlikely to get a \"pops\" sound. Most orchestral brass libraries have slower attacks than required. QL Brass is my solution for agressive brass.

[TLarkin]

(because I have NO clue how to use EWQL Silver when a trumpet has both slurs and stacatto in the same track), <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi eegee,
This is something I do quite often, and being a trumpet player myself, I\'m glad it\'s not very effective.. images/icons/smile.gif
But as far as the slurs go, there really is no way to get a realistic trumpet slur in my mind, but I do use piano roll editing for most instruments, and I make sure that in some cases the note ends overlap the next attack. Not by much, each sample is different. This gives it a much more natural feel. Experiment with it, it\'s a pretty simple little tip, but it works great for me.
Good Luck.
Tim

[eegee]

Hi Tim,

(Love Prince of Persia, but LOTR: Return of the Kings is a bit hard)

I made a separate post in the EWQL area, but the problem I have with Silver is getting a sample that sounds good thru fast and slow runs. I\'m assuming its a limitation of me as a programmer rather than Silver, but while the stacato sounds run thru the fast runs great, as soon as I hit a 1/2 note, the stacatto trumpet wont sustain at all. Alternatively, the more sustaining trumpet sounds wont even hit all of the notes of the fast runs at tempo.

How does one fix this?

Thanks,
ERic

[JonFairhurst]

I\'d layer the two sounds on two different tracks. Use the expression control to crossfade, so the staccato starts it and the sustain finishes it. You\'ll have to experiment. If you x-fade too slowly, you may get a chorused or ensemble sound. If you x-fade too quickly, you may get a discontinuity. Fading immediately after the attack is likely the best time for the switcheroo.

[eegee]

Jon - now you\'re really going to see how green I am. I\'m not sure if I\'ve seen you post regarding EWQLSO, so I\'m not sure if you can answer this, but

Is the expression control an actual knob on Kompakt or is it a cc I need to control from my midi controller?

And - do you do this live while it is playing or do you do this by hand in your sequencer?

Thanks - I\'m learning some good stuff on this thread.

Eric

[galvedro]

Hi,

Is is very usual to layer several articulations per instrument. This is easier with string sections, that have a fuller sound, than whith a solo flute, for example. Whith the solo flute it is very difficult to layer whithout \"phasing\" the sound. Try and you will see what I mean.

Lets start with an easy one. What I do very often, is to setup two or three tracks for each string part. I start playing with a general patch that feets more or less the expressive needs.

Assume I have recorded a 1st violin part with detache articulation. Then I edit it until I can\'t take anything better from it.

Then I copy that part to the Legato and Sustain tracks, and set the velocity to 0. And finally note by note, I adjust the velocity where I need more legato, or where I need longer playing.

[Hardy Heern]

One useful technique is to record your MIDI controllers on a different track but to the same MIDI channel as the track of the instrument you\'re trying to bring to life. This allows you to try all sorts of controllers and variations by muting or soloing them in your sequencer. Only merge them when you\'re finished.

As Tim Larkin says piano roll editing gives you MUCH greater control over the subtelty of timing etc. in a similar way that the staves have to be interpreted by the player and just can\'t be read mechanically. A piano roll CAN be read mechanically.

Frank

[Runyon]

Considering you\'re a newbie to midi-orchestral performance, you will soon discover one important fact:

Doing a midi-realization of existing orchestral music that was originally written for real musicians almost always yields less than satisfactory results.

Original compositions written for specific samples will allow a composer to write to the strength of the sample. All samples have inherent weaknesses that will become exposed in a realization of an orchestral score.

Sure, you can get good results for a few measures or phrases that happen to align with a given sample\'s strength, but at some point, there will always be a passage that a sample can\'t pull off, no matter if you own every sample library out there, and are intimate with all of them.

Good mock-ups will stay away from those sample weaknesses and gravitate toward a sample\'s strength.

The key to good mock-ups is that the sample often dictates some parameters of the composition, phrases, and orchestration. In a real sense, the midi-composer is a slave to the note performance of the sample developer and musician at that point in time that the samples were recorded. There are not infinite variations....and in a way, that is a good thing. The newer sample libraries are getting too cumbersome anyway.

In my opinion, the most fundamental flaw of using orchestral samples to realize music is that you lose one of the most important aspects of music making. And that is the contribution of more than 100 people, bringing their collective history and experience, into the process of realizing a given piece of music.

Other people gave you some good tips, but the obvious one at mix-down is to render all midi to audio tracks before mixing and adding reverb, eq, etc.

[TLarkin]

But as far as the slurs go, there really is no way to get a realistic trumpet slur in my mind
VSL Legato, if you haven\'t tried it...

I\'ll put up some individual solo tracks later to demo.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Say it isn\'t so....
Looking forward to hearing it, sort of...
As long as the composers I work for don\'t find out. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[EJ]

This topic and its responses are why this site is so valuable.. I didn\'t post the topice but learned a great deal. Thank you all..EJ :-)

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by TLarkin:
[QUOTEBut as far as the slurs go, there really is no way to get a realistic trumpet slur in my mind<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">VSL Legato, if you haven\'t tried it...

I\'ll put up some individual solo tracks later to demo.