[OT] What to charge client? [Archive]

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BlueScreen

11-04-2002, 01:00 PM

Hi Gang.

Sorry to post something so completely off-topic here, but I can\'t imagine a more qualified group of peers to advise me on this situation.

I have been speaking with a couple of producers out in NY who want to hire me to write their musical. The trouble is that they want me to work in a lot of different roles, and I am not sure what a fair price would be to quote them. Here are the facts.

1. It is to be an 90-min musical with some spoken lines. At least one hour of music. (songs + score)

2. They want me to write all the songs and score

3. They want me to write all the lyrics

4. They want me to record/mix all the background music tracks here at my project studio

5. They want me to coach their singers as to how to sing the songs

6. They want a music-only CD to play during live perfomances so their singers can sing over it (I would produce this from my studio)

7. They also want a \"soundtrack\" CD to sell, which means I would engineer, edit, mix and master all sessions with their singers at my studio. I would record them over the karaoke versions that I had produced earlier.

8. I will see no points or royalties on the back end, this is a straight buy-out fee for my services. It would be a work-for-hire.

9. This project would last for approximately 3 mos and would require me to fly at least a few times to NY

10. I would be working with their choreographer throughout to make sure that the songs I write are dance-able. (\"I may be a lover, but I ain\'t no dancer\" =-)

My sense is that while these people are in earnest about their musical, they are definitely amateurs. They are a couple of independently wealthy folks who have always wanted to do a musical.

They do not even have a definite budget for this project, and are hoping to shape it around my quote.

Any ideas? I am not afraid of losing this gig, as I think the pain-in-the-arse factor would be high. I will be their learning curve and they seem to have some difficulty agreeing on things now.

What do you think? You can email me privately at: sjethan1514@earthlink.net (\"sjethan1514@earthlink.net\") so we don\'t clutter up NS with specific information about money. I just thought you guys would be the best group to advise me.

11-04-2002, 01:20 PM

\"buy-out\"?????

Man, what if you write something that gets picked up by others? Musicals can be the biggest money earners of all.

I\'ve got no idea what you should charge, but doing EVERYTHING deserves some ownership.

Good luck with the project.

(Dance to it? Dancers can dance to anything.)

Rob Elliott

11-04-2002, 01:43 PM

Within reason, take a \'very little less\' than your normal fee up front to hold onto ownership - on never knows.

Rob

BlueScreen

11-04-2002, 01:53 PM

Hi Rob + Z.

Thanks for your replies, and for your advice about hanging onto some ownership.

Any ideas about what to quote? What would you guys charge for the scenario I described above?

Ned Bouhalassa

11-04-2002, 02:05 PM

Wow, my antennas are screaming, \"danger, danger, danger!\".

Unless, of course, you\'ve done this kind of thing before. images/icons/wink.gif

I mean, you say that they have a lot of money... that can be good and bad. The bad part is that chances are, they got that way (being rich) by being very careful with their money, and by getting amazing deals on their investment. They\'re going to try to squeeze you as much as they can (that\'s clear from the fact that they want to buy your rights outright). Hold on to your copyrights, get a fair percentage for publishing. What if one of your songs becomes a hit? What if Coca-Cola (God forbid - the Evil ones! images/icons/wink.gif ) wants to use your song (but it belongs to your producers) - guess who gets paid?

From the looks of this, I would bet that if you take it on, they only way to make sure that you\'ll stay sane is to hire a team. Hopefully they will have enough brains to compensate for the fact that they have no experience. Again, I smell trouble, but only because you mentioned that they\'ve never done this before...

Good luck and don\'t be shy to negotiate hard - chances are they\'ll respect you more. Better yet, get an agent to represent you and negotiate. You\'ll sleep better.

thesoundsmith

11-04-2002, 02:06 PM

I agree 100% with Z6. Buy-out is not a rational option, but they don\'t now that. This is strictly opinion, but as I see it...

Each line item should have its own rate and clauses-also note my \'codicil\' at the end:

First-is there a libretto, or are you also writing the story and spoken text? You are then responsible for creating the entire production except stage sets and lights... Charge!!!!

\"They want me to write all the songs and score, and lyrics.\"

With no points, this is the show-stopper. Suggest you give them a rate with points, and a MUCH higher buy-out price (such that it becomes uneconomical to do.)

\"They want me to record/mix all the background music tracks here at my project studio.\"

Fine, get your premium hourly rate.

\"They want me to coach their singers as to how to sing the songs\"

Amateur or pro singers? If amateur, very high rate (double pro rate,) if pro, a typical rate for your area.

\"They want a music-only CD to play during live perfomances so their singers can sing over it (I would produce this from my studio)\"

Part of the mix process-charge studio rate.

\"They also want a \"soundtrack\" CD to sell, which means I would engineer, edit, mix and master all sessions with their singers at my studio. I would record them over the karaoke versions that I had produced earlier.\"

Again, your top studio rates apply for all phases.

\"I will see no points or royalties on the back end, this is a straight buy-out fee for my services. It would be a work-for-hire.\"

This is where the price goes up many times the \"with-points\" rate. Get them to see it is NOT in their best interest to cut you out. If they want to be able to call the songs their own, \"Look what I wrote...\" that\'s got to be worth double yet again. Minimum, even with no points-your name is featured PROMINENTLY on all CDs and programs as writer.

\"This project would last for approximately 3 mos and would require me to fly at least a few times to NY\"

At their expense, of course. Plus room and a reasonable per diem.

\"I would be working with their choreographer throughout to make sure that the songs I write are dance-able. (\"I may be a lover, but I ain\'t no dancer\" =-)\"

Probably not much different than any \'producer\', again-amateur or pro? charge for amateurs.

CODICIL:

They don\'t agree. Very well. Be ABSOLUTELY SURE to get an agreement for payment along the way-25% before commencement, 25% after completion of the first half of the music (not recorded, just written and agreed to), etc.

Get a clause in writing - if they can\'t agree, you STILL get paid. In full. Their lack of consensus is NOT your problem. Try to get one of them to be the \'executive\' producer whose word is final.

As each piece is written, or recorded, or mixed, etc. get written approval of the work. Be assured they will change their minds later, you MUST have a signed paper stating the work is to spec.

Every element that is amateur requires additional cash from them, as the PITA factor rapidly approaches Edvard Munch-ian proportions.

Consider tie-breakers: for $x, I\'ll give you a secondversion of the mix, you can decide later...

Good luck, guy. You\'re going to need it.

Dasher

Been there, done that (not as a musical, but just with any number of wanna-be bands and singers...)

BlueScreen

11-04-2002, 02:13 PM

Hi Guys.

Thanks for all of your comments. At first glance, I think I may have accidentally overstated the level of this project.

Don\'t let the fact that they are residing in NY fool you;-- this project is so amateur that it cannot even aspire to being off-off-Broadway. It is a small-town affair with (sorry to say) no chance of getting media attention whatsoever. I say that because the story is really, really lame. And this their first time doing something like this. All the performers + crew are amateurs (\'cept me =).

Also, they are really trying to appeal to a specific market-- 2nd generation Africans growing up in the US, the conflicts they have with their parents, etc. They live in an area that contains a sizeable African population. Because I have some African heritage and am fluent with the culture, I feel conversant with the issues of their story.

Because of the above reasons, I am not that concerned with keeping any rights over the material I write. As much as I think my work will be appreciated, I really do not think there is any danger of getting screwed-over on such a gig.

My best guess is that the entire budget (minus music) will probably be under $20,000 USD. (I just found this out) So they are really biting off more than they can chew, here. I think their expectations are totally unrealistic for the miniscule budget they have. But it also presents me with an opportunity to make some change at a time when change would be appreciated. =-)

Ned Bouhalassa

11-04-2002, 02:15 PM

BTW, 3 months? Looks to me like it\'s more like a 6-month gig to me. And I wouldn\'t touch it for under 60 grand US.

Ned Bouhalassa

11-04-2002, 02:16 PM

Sorry about the quality of my last post (too much coffee...)

Ned Bouhalassa

11-04-2002, 02:20 PM

Ooops! images/icons/shocked.gif

Just read your post, Blue. I guess they won\'t go for 60 grand!! images/icons/grin.gif

Oh well, now the only reason to do it, IMHO, is for the experience that you will get. And only do it if you love the concept, story, and the people involved (cast, crew) - in the crunch, you\'ll only have these things to motivate you. BTW, all the more reason for you to hang on to your rights. They don\'t have the budget to buy your rights...

11-04-2002, 02:29 PM

Blue,

If these guys are so small can\'t you at least have ownership revert back to you after an agreed time or set of circumstances (i.e. the show closes).

This seems like a huge amount of work, and with all due respect, how do you know you won\'t write your \'masterpiece\' here? What if you write the best damn song you ever wrote? What if someone hears it, and wants it? As Ned said, what if some executive hears it and it goes on to generate millions of dollars? Much much stranger things have happened, and they always seem to happen when the composer thinks \"Gee, this is not such a big deal?\"

I\'m sorry to keep flogging this, and of course it\'s all up to you, but \'subject matter\' and \'perceived audience\' have nothing whatever to do with whether your work has the potential to make expeontential gains (in popularity/money) in the future.

The mere fact that their budget is so very tight should guarantee you ownership rights. THEY should be backing YOU! Man, you are being asked to do everthing here? What gives? Is it beyond the realms of possibilities that they might be \'scamming\' you?

The easiest way to steal from an artist is to set up a \'phony\' amateur crew, work the creator like a slave, then keep the loot.

They should be ashamed of themselves to even suggest that they own it all.

By the way, if you think the story or the subject matter are a bit lame, check out almost all of the biggest money earning musicals of all time.

xhosa

11-04-2002, 02:29 PM

WOW

You have gotten a lot of good advice here.

In Canada we have the Guild of Canadian Film Composers and I find that the members are a valuable resource in these situations. Whenever I get something new I talked to a member who has done that kind of work and ask their option. This type of \"market survey\" often yields ideas I had not considered. Try and find someone who has done this kind of work in your area and ask their option.

Good luck

Hasen

11-04-2002, 02:49 PM

$20000? Full ownership? I think you can tell them where to stick their 20 grand.....

They simply don\'t have enough to buy out that much music. You should charge around $60000 even for just licensing the stuff, never mind full ownership. If you do _have_ to give them full ownership and you _have_ to accept that amount then make sure the contract has an ancillary rights clause in there so that if Coca-Cola do buy one of your songs from them you get a piece of the pie so to speak.

You\'ve every right to charge expenses as well for those trips etc.

Serisouly though - 20 grand for an hour\'s worth of music? Even in the UK you\'d get paid a better deal than that.... images/icons/rolleyes.gif

jdeborde

11-04-2002, 03:50 PM

It\'s been my experience that some less savy producers might spout the \"i\'ve got to own everything\" mantra without really knowing what that means.

Perhaps you can gently explain how you can give them the rights to use the music in perpetuity with their production rather than paying a premium to own it outright.

Also. . it\'s been my experience that early displays of the \"*** pain\" factor only get worse, rarely better as the project progresses. Make sure you get enough money that when you;re going \"i can\'t believe i said i\'d do this\" a few months from now, you can counter it with \"but at least i\'m getting (well) paid.\" And be sure to follow the advice of contractual stipulations that ensure you get paid regardless of the inevitable tom-foolery on their part.

good luck! let us know what happens.

john

Richard Barr

11-04-2002, 05:08 PM

Because of the above reasons, I am not that concerned with keeping any rights over the material I write. As much as I think my work will be appreciated, I really do not think there is any danger of getting screwed-over on such a gig.

I did a project 12 years ago where I had the same sentiment. However I pursued the idea of retaining ownership of the writer\'s rights and one half the publishing rights. Over the past 12 years I made four times the original fees in residuals. Never give up ownership to anything you write, no matter how insignificant the project may seem.

Also figure the time frame to be 2 to 3 times what the producers calculate, especially since they\'ve never done this before.

Hasen

11-04-2002, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />They simply don\'t have enough to buy out that much music. You should charge around $60000 even for just licensing the stuff, never mind full ownership. If you do _have_ to give them full ownership and you _have_ to accept that amount then make sure the contract has an ancillary rights clause in there so that if Coca-Cola do buy one of your songs from them you get a piece of the pie so to speak.
Hasen, did you read BlueScreen\'s earlier post?
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, that\'s why I opened with \"They simply don\'t have enough to buy out that much music.\" I don\'t really care what their budget is \'cos they simply can\'t afford what they\'re trying to buy. You don\'t go to a car salesman and convince him to sell you a Lambourghini for $20000 \'cos \"that\'s what your budget is\".

How long is this project going to take you, Blue?

meeehoon

11-04-2002, 05:48 PM

Heya... I am not sure if this is any relevant though... But a friend and his friend of my ex-piano teacher wrote the music and lyrics of a musical play which they later sold the entire copyright to someone for US$1.5million... That\'s pretty decent and that\'s a lot of noodles!!!

meeehoon

Bruce A. Richardson

11-04-2002, 06:10 PM

I would be extremely careful with this project, and my gut reaction is to recommend walking away. The expectations are unrealistic, it\'s a very confused set of roles, there\'s no money, and in general it just smells a little funny. The producers are either clueless or shady, but no matter...a show of this scope is something you don\'t want to mess with unless the deal is sweet and the team is stellar. It sounds like two strikes to me.

BlueScreen

11-04-2002, 06:58 PM

Wow... what can I say?

Thank you all so much for sharing your helpful advice + experience with me.

A couple of points:

<ul type=\"square\"> Indeed, this has the potential to be the best-paying gig of mine to date. But that does not mean I am unworthy of it. =-) I estimate it will take at least 3 to 4 months. Could go a bit longer, but I would like to cap it around there. Even if it has a high PITA factor, I would do it for the change I don\'t think the producers know enough to scam me, but the point is well taken. Cover myself.[/list]Again, thank you all for your very helpful advice. You can tell these guys are basically your average folks who think they can do \"Cats\" for a couple of bucks. Might be my role to dispell that particular illusion. images/icons/wink.gif

Hasen

11-05-2002, 03:59 AM

I wouldn\'t be inclined to walk away from the deal \'cos it sounds like a great one for you - as long as they are willing to bend a bit more your way. 20 grand for four months+ of work isn\'t the worst thing in the world if their budget really can\'t be stretched, but you must _must_ insist that they cannot have full ownership of the music. Just license it all to them for this project only. Then you have a way to get some more money for yourself.

Hasen

11-05-2002, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
Hasen wrote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, that\'s why I opened with \"They simply don\'t have enough to buy out that much music.\" I don\'t really care what their budget is \'cos they simply can\'t afford what they\'re trying to buy. You don\'t go to a car salesman and convince him to sell you a Lambourghini for $20000 \'cos \"that\'s what your budget is\".Yeah, but it sounded like it\'s a community project with cultural and social significance. There are rewards for producing art that extend beyond financial compensation, aren\'t there?

Lee Blaske<hr /></blockquote>Well yeah, that\'s what you\'ll keep telling yourself when these guys are millionares and you\'ve long spent that measly 20 grand....

BlueScreen

11-05-2002, 04:26 AM

Hi Hasan.

Your point is well taken-- I am all for community awareness, but that doesn\'t mean that you have to suffer for it. I appreciate your advice on this subject. There have been so many great responses to my post, but I meant to thank you earlier for your first replies higher up on the thread.

At this point, for the curious, I am going to put a proposal together and contemplate the numbers a bit further. I will take the advice of many people on this list and stipulate that I will not do this as a work-for-hire, but that I will have at least partial ownership of the songs. Someone mentioned the possibility of having all rights revert back to me within a given timeframe, and I think that is a good idea.

Time to draw up the proposal. If anyone has any further thoughts on this, I would love to hear them. Thank you again for providing me with such helpful, specific advice.

ryounger

11-05-2002, 12:21 PM

Hey Blue. I must agree with others on this thread about being cautious about tackling a project such as this. When I was in collage I wrote a musical for my senior recital, and let me tell ya, it was the hardest six months in my life. An hour of music is a lot to produce on its own, if you have to teach it to amateurs, that is just a recipe for a nightmare. I’m not directly trying to discourage you, but you need to know exactly what this job entitles. On the other hand there is nothing like having your baby getting complete attention. Good luck with the project, and keep us informed.

Russ

Brian W. Ralston

11-06-2002, 03:25 AM

ok Blue......if you really think this project is worth taking and you have the time to commit to it and produce top quality work (since it will be your name on the line regardless....so the work has to be the best you can do).....this is how you present it to them.

\"Well.....my normal fee for something of this magnitude would be < INSERT FEE HERE ABOVE $20,000>. \" (You can even break it down for them like suggestion earlier in this thread).

your pitch continues.......\"But, because I see potential in your project and I am excited about the possiblities....I would be willing to do this project for $10,000 PLUS ownership of all or part of the music along with a certain percentage of any profits made in the future.\"

After all.....music plays a big part in A MUSICAL. At least ask for 50% of their budget (plus those residuals). They will need $$$ for staging, sets, promotion, performance, hall costs, etc........that would be what the other $10,000 is for.

Also suggest that if they really want it to be successful...they should be conducting ongoing fundraising throughout the project and not just stop at $20Gs.

Also make sure that there is some definite end point to your responsibilties and if there is any work that is required to be completed after that point.....and they want you to do it......you will have to be compensated for that additional work. Basically you do not want to be in a situation where they do the musical...it performs on stage...they get feedback from the audience, etc......want to make changes and then come back to you and decide they need to re-write the first half in a week. Crazier things have happened to people.

timzydee

11-06-2002, 04:01 AM

Back to your list on page one if this thread.

Another composer and I did all of this a couple of years ago for a festival. The difference is that it was OUR idea. We also cast and directed it. It only ran 1 hour but we wrote, recorded, and put the thing on its feet within a 7 month deadline. We also shot a documentary of the process as we went along. If you\'ve ever seen \"Waiting for Guffman\" you\'d appreciate this. Basically we did it for exposure and experience in musical theater.

Hasen

11-06-2002, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by BlueScreen:
Hi Hasan.

Your point is well taken-- I am all for community awareness, but that doesn\'t mean that you have to suffer for it. I appreciate your advice on this subject. There have been so many great responses to my post, but I meant to thank you earlier for your first replies higher up on the thread.
Your welcome, Blue but its actually \"Hasen\" - Hay-zen and not \"Hasan\". images/icons/smile.gif

Originally posted by Brian W. Ralston:
ok Blue......if you really think this project is worth taking and you have the time to commit to it and produce top quality work (since it will be your name on the line regardless....so the work has to be the best you can do).....this is how you present it to them.

\"Well.....my normal fee for something of this magnitude would be < INSERT FEE HERE ABOVE $20,000>. \" (You can even break it down for them like suggestion earlier in this thread).

your pitch continues.......\"But, because I see potential in your project and I am excited about the possiblities....I would be willing to do this project for $10,000 PLUS ownership of all or part of the music along with a certain percentage of any profits made in the future.\"
Perhaps, but I\'d still keeps it at $20000 even with ownership and percentages. $30000 with ownership of all the tracks is really the bare minimum here. So with a share of future profits we could drop to $20000, but then it does depend on exactly how much of a percentage you\'d be getting.