Waking Life [Archive] - Northern Sound Source

Thomas_J

10-19-2002, 10:43 AM

Restores your faith? In what? Hollywood scores or movies?

As for scores there\'s a number of incredibly talented hollywood composers out there. James Newton Howard\'s score for \"Signs\" is a masterpiece, so is John Williams\' score for Harry Potter 2 - Chamber of secrets. Heck, Williams outdid himself AGAIN. John Debney is probably my favorite composer ever, next to John Williams.
Such huge imagination and incredible sense of orchestration and harmony.

Sorry if that\'s not what you meant, Bruce images/icons/smile.gif Your post came out sounding a little con a-list composers.

Thomas

Bruce A. Richardson

10-19-2002, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Thomas_J:
Restores your faith? In what? Hollywood scores or movies?

James Newton Howard\'s score for \"Signs\" is a masterpiece

You have got to be kidding me. I laughed out loud at that cornball last cue. I don\'t usually engage in harsh critiques of specific scores, but Signs was not one of Howard\'s high points. But granted, he didn\'t have much in the way of inspiration. Cheaply-painted green men with poison shooting fingernails, and perhaps the sappiest ending in the history of films didn\'t exactly give him much to work with.

Man, that film was a cliche from beginning to end in every imaginable way, from the stolen Spielberg-isms in just about every other shot to the emotionally sappy score, to a plot that had more continuity breaks than a Scooby Do cartoon.

I\'m beginning to lose faith in more than films if this is your idea of impressive work. images/icons/tongue.gif

Bruce A. Richardson

10-19-2002, 12:11 PM

Thomas,

Just out of curiosity, have you seen Waking Life?

Trust me, you\'ll dig the score. It is worth checking out.

Simon Ravn

10-19-2002, 12:29 PM

Signs was a terrible movie - I have to agree on that. One of the worst I\'ve seen since Armageddon. But I dont think the score hurt it. I don\'t think it helped it a lot either, and calling it a masterpiece is not something I\'d do:) Road to Perdition was another story. Great movie, great score.

dwdonehoo

10-19-2002, 12:33 PM

images/icons/grin.gif Laughter cheers my morning! Pray, continue this dialog, for it gladdens the heart! (OK, so, I have been re-reading LOTR and the formal speech is sticking to my brain.) This reminds me of the discussions my art-critic-philosophy-major-IT Manager backpacking partner and I have. He claims I am easily amused. I claim there is a difference between entertainment and art, and yes, they overlap. (He loved Gosford Park: I thought it was a friggin’ snooz-fest). Makes for interesting camp-side discussions in the wild high-country.
My favorite movie music of recent memory was Zimmer’s “Might of Rome” (last part: Hey, I love Wagner). Followed by things from LOTR and Final Fantasy:TSW. But there are many things I enjoy, even those things judged a cliché. I take things by themselves on their own merits. Some things are a work of art, and some are amusement rides: each enjoyed on their own merits and context.

Thomas_J

10-19-2002, 12:50 PM

Bruce, I will definitely check out Waking Life. Thanks for the recommendation.

Signs was INDEED a terrible movie. From the terrible dialogue to the laughable failure of an attempt to wrap it all up in a story about faith.

The music on the other hand was more than pleasing to my ears. Obvious influences from the golden age, weaved in with a masterful touch. I\'ve heard the mockups of all the cues and one thing is for sure. He knows his way around in the sequencer.

I think the most impressive technical aspect of the movie is the sound of the orchestral recording. It features a depth, musicality, warmth and high quality sonic definition I have never heard before.

I really advice you to pick up a copy of the score, if not for the music, then at least for the pure delight of listening to such a well-produced orchestral film score.

Thomas

Lewis

10-19-2002, 12:58 PM

Hahaha! You guyz! Your discussions is a wonderfull symphony in itself. What I dont grasp is that nobody ever critize Williams here. He is good at orchestrations and has a nice sense of theming. That being said the guy is NOT a part of the new musical century. He is stocked in romantic music and the word Virus is probably nothing but a bug to him.

Dont get me wrong. I am learning alot of his way of using the same chordworks over and over in his works - and learning alot about simplicity in theming.

Let me put it like this...

In my ears - he is a true genius. A mastermind in ripping others and gently putting a magic Williams spell over it. But he lacks power. I cannot keep on being enthusiastic about his sound. I think Williams need to improve. I would LOVE to hear how he would use breakbeats, synths, samples and all the utils we have now.

But maybe he is stucked in the same century as his music. Yes yes. I know. I have started a bondfire.

Yours - Chris

lex

10-19-2002, 02:31 PM

I loved Signs! For a popcorn summer flick, it is great, if you wanted a serious flick, why would you go and watch a movie about little green man in the first place?

And I aggre with Thomas, at least for me this was JNH\'s best work, I\'m going to see it again just to see and hear those opening credits again.

And by the way, what did you all think about Minority Report? It is my favourite Williams score when I listen to it on CD, but what bothered me in the movie was his action cues...it just didn\'t work..sometimes it felt like somebody slaped some unused cues from Star Wars II....... images/icons/smile.gif

Alex

lex

10-19-2002, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Lewis:
I would LOVE to hear how he would use breakbeats, synths, samples and all the utils we have now.
Yours - Chris[/QB]You can here this in one cue from A.I. . And it is just funny in a horrible way.

Alex

passacaglia

10-19-2002, 02:54 PM

Yes, very much a bonfire if we start picking on J.W. --- but i must agree with Chris on every point here ..... John Williams, to me, is more of a craftsman .. not an artist ... the only envelope pushing he does is the 7 figure bills he sends to his clients images/icons/shocked.gif

I did hear he owns a Mini-Moog!! hehe, besides the point ..

Extract the obvious romantic-era rehash, and you are left with next to nothing ..... the 80\'s he ruled -- the 90\'s he was the one to immitate and the 21st century ... well, he is the one to critisize.

After the aural molestation i experienced while listening/watching Minority Report .... i will be very skeptical of him remotely attempting anything outside his box. I know Speilberg and him are tied to the hip ... but come on!! he was the WRONG composer for that score .... instead of the needed breakbeats in the beds, he uses the ol\' -treat the timpanis like a drum line- trick (zzZZzZZzzz). lame.

ask any university composition teacher about their opinion of williams (yes, i know .. part jealousy ... the \'i can do better-isms\') .... my prof spent an entire day decontructing williams for me ... i left there convinced he was satanic-medium who stole the souls of Wagner, Holts, Tchiakovsky and Strauss (not the waltzy one).

I hear his son is and aspiring composer. Great! Time to take over daddy\'s shop, in my opinion.

To not sound like a full-out williams basher, i must say i really liked the harry potter soundtrack .... the first one .... i listened to the second one, and was confused, wasn\'t sure if i was really just listening to the first score images/icons/shocked.gif

Granted he will always be the hero to most .... i prefer the founding fathers of film music ... they were part of the logical progression of classical music, after WWI .... anything since is just \'dress it up with new cloths\'

So what, i prefer Berlioz (godfather of theming) and Herman to Williams ... just my opinions folks ... flawed like everyother mortal human.

So now i let you all throw stones ...

passacaglia

passacaglia

10-19-2002, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by lex:
And by the way, what did you all think about Minority Report? It is my favourite Williams score when I listen to it on CD, but what bothered me in the movie was his action cues...it just didn\'t work..sometimes it felt like somebody slaped some unused cues from Star Wars II.....indeed! what action cues ..... LOL ..... lifeless, the movie had no prepulsion ... the score was a huge deterant .... great movie + bad score = bad experience, for me at least.

of course the sentimental cues were dead on, if he wasn\'t able to perform on that end, then he might as well retire!!

the rumor mill said he has refused to do the next Star Wars score .... boy that could be a mess!!!
Hell, why can\'t the next composer steal/quote williams themes ..... williams has made a living for almost 30 years doing the same thing .... the russian five called ... and they want their trick bag returned john!!!!!!

Stravinsky had a wonderful quote: \"A good artist borrows, a great artist steals.\"

passacaglia

Hasen

10-19-2002, 03:41 PM

The only reason anyone mocks Williams is so they can try and feel better about themselves. He\'s a genius ten times over and continues to outdo himself with score after score. Granted, not ALL his scores are masterpieces....but a few too many of them are...

He\'s so ubiquitous that people tend to over-analyse his music and its \'fashoinable\' to hail another composer as your favourite...or even to suggest that you don\'t like Williams at all. I\'ve even heard comments like ; \'his music has no emotion\'. images/icons/shocked.gif

passacaglia

10-19-2002, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Hasen:
The only reason anyone mocks Williams is so they can try and feel better about themselves. He\'s a genius ten times over and continues to outdo himself with score after score. I made it quite clear that i was simply stating my opinion of his music .... you are the only one drawing an absolutist box around mr. williams -- when this is whole-heartedly a subjective discussion.

passacaglia

Lewis

10-19-2002, 04:24 PM

I fully agree with your points pass. Mr. Williams is a great craftsmen - and I might envy him for this ability. But I dont envy him for his talent of innovation. Minority Report was a fine movie - but his track lacked personality. When Williams composed Saving Private Ryan there was almost a fanfare for his \"new\" approach. Meaning - that he didnt want to emphasize his themes so much. But then again - listening to Harry Potter (which is one of his best - but sounds like Hook) he went back to the good old romantic sound.

The problem - seen from an artistical view - is that Williams is CLEARLY sentimental in his expression. Its like eating candyfloss all the time. Its great in the beginning. But it gets too sweet. Schindlers was a great track - but FAR too sentimental for my taste. There is a HUGE difference in sentimentality and nostalgia.

I would say that Williams best tracks would be from \"Close Encounters...\" That was a great track. Innovative, expressive and most of all - it had personality.

Candy floss has no personality. Its just pink and sweet.

Yours Chris
_________________
--- Shoot me!

lex

10-19-2002, 04:49 PM

I just find it so funny that as soon as you put this words \"FILM MUSIC\" on any forum, you imediatly get bunch of replys devided in to:
Williams Rules!
and
Williams Sucks!

As for Minority Report...I LIKE the score, as piece of music, some great imaginative writing, and for my sorry excuse of a brain, very complex too...
I just didn\'t like how he spoted the movie...
And his recent action cues I don\'t even count.

Alex

Thomas_J

10-19-2002, 06:18 PM

\"Williams borrows and steals from a lot of dead composers\" - And so did the dead composers.

If you take a look at the golden age guys, Herrmann, Newman, Rozsa, Mancini, Korngold etc. you will find that they also stole from other composers. Travel back 80 years and you will find Mahler at his piano, incorporating musical ideas he has absorbed and enjoyed.

It\'s what we all do. We hear something we like and we try to sculpt it into something we like even better. We give the music our personal treat.
It\'s the way music has evolved. It will continue to do so. With each piece of music you write, you bring in a bit of yourself. Others are inspired by the personality in your music, and they bring it into their own music. It is kind of like gossip. It travels from mouth to mouth until the original content is nothing like it started out as.

We hear obvious influences in Williams\' music, but it\'s getting less and less apparent, and more and more transparent. In my opinion John Williams represents one of the finest orchestrators in orchestral history. To me the man is nothing short of a genius, if there ever was someone worthy of that arguably ambiguous \"title\".

His musical ideas may be harmonically simple in theory, but let me ask you the same question I\'ve asked a number of composition teachers I\'ve had through the years; \"Given a typical Williams progression and a predefined orchestration template, are you capable of composing music of similar emotional quality?\"

There are theory books out there on what works and what doesn\'t work. That doesn\'t mean music cannot possess an unexplainable source of emotional energy, and just because anyone can \"reverse-engineer\" music (in lack of an appropriate musical equivalent) , it doesn\'t mean that anyone can piece it together.

Williams is an excellent craftman, no doubt about it. He\'s also one of the greatest composers who ever lived. He continues to surprise me with his attention to little details and invention of new orchestral devices. Minority Report is an incredibly complex and for the most part DISHARMONIC score. With the exception of \"Sean\'s theme\" it is completely devoid of any prominent consonanting harmonic progressions. This feels very fitting for the movie, and although the music editors must have been hopped-up on LSD there were moments in the movie where you could actually hear what Williams had intended.
Anyway, I\'m drifting. Minority Report may not be everyone\'s cup of tea, but it\'s well thought-out, incorporates a vast amount of original ideas and perhaps personal experiments.

I played a few tracks from this cd to my composition class and people (including the teacher) went crazy. They loved it. Their enthusiasm for the music came to a sudden halt when I announced the composer\'s name.

Thomas

Bruce A. Richardson

10-19-2002, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by Hasen:
The only reason anyone mocks Williams is so they can try and feel better about themselves. He\'s a genius ten times over and continues to outdo himself with score after score. Granted, not ALL his scores are masterpieces....but a few too many of them are...

He\'s so ubiquitous that people tend to over-analyse his music and its \'fashoinable\' to hail another composer as your favourite...or even to suggest that you don\'t like Williams at all. I\'ve even heard comments like ; \'his music has no emotion\'. images/icons/shocked.gif So let me get this straight. Someone who doesn\'t like John Williams can\'t actually hold that opinion based on truth of their convictions--they just say it to be fashionable?

What a load.

I don\'t happen to dislike John Williams.

I do happen to dislike the fact that a style he brought to film scoring over twenty years ago has more than worn out its welcome. What\'s to analyze, much less over-analyze? I can sum it up in one statement: I\'m sick of cloying, bloated, steroid-pumped romanticism in filmscores...ESPECIALLY in films that don\'t call for that treatment.

That\'s my own opinion. I couldn\'t care two shakes about \"fashion\" in my musical opinions.

Bruce A. Richardson

10-19-2002, 07:02 PM

BTW, getting back to topic...

There\'s an excellent scene about two-three scenes into Waking Life that you guys will love...I won\'t give it away, but it\'s something that this group will appreciate.

The film itself is one hardcore piece of work. The entire thing was shot in DV with live actors, then animated by a team of artists using overlays/rotoscoping techniques...one artist per character. It\'s rather amazing how it all comes together, but it\'s one of the most unique and beautiful animations I\'ve ever seen.

You probably wouldn\'t want to drop any acid before watching it, unless you\'re in the mood to get your brain fried to a crisp, haha.

A_Sapp

10-19-2002, 08:08 PM

The only thing I liked about signs was the amount of suspense that it had to offer. But when the folks went in the basement hiding from the aliens, that about blew the movie.

I think the Venezuelan birthday video in the movie was by far the freakiest part. I had chills, and usually don\'t get em\' in todays movies.

I thought the beginning overture to signs was awesome. The rest of the score pretty much sucked *** .

Hasen

10-20-2002, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hasen:
The only reason anyone mocks Williams is so they can try and feel better about themselves. He\'s a genius ten times over and continues to outdo himself with score after score. Granted, not ALL his scores are masterpieces....but a few too many of them are...

He\'s so ubiquitous that people tend to over-analyse his music and its \'fashoinable\' to hail another composer as your favourite...or even to suggest that you don\'t like Williams at all. I\'ve even heard comments like ; \'his music has no emotion\'. images/icons/shocked.gif So let me get this straight. Someone who doesn\'t like John Williams can\'t actually hold that opinion based on truth of their convictions--they just say it to be fashionable?
<hr /></blockquote>Ok maybe \'fashionable\' is not the right word, but you know what I mean, and its true for the most part. You can just tell with some people...

You say you don\'t dislike Williams which means you\'re not exactly crazy about him either. I could have guessed that even though I\'ve never actually met you. images/icons/smile.gif I don\'t intend any offense by any of this btw and I wasn\'t referring to you as the one who said Williams music has no emotion, that was someone else I know.

Lewis

10-20-2002, 07:09 AM

Well. Williams is \"emotional\" - but its emotional in the candyfloss sense. The problem is not that he cant compose or orchestrate. He is great at that. The problem is his expression. Its always the same sentimental and glamorous style. When he gets \"dark\" he creates weeping themes like Schindlers. But its still sentimental. Nothing wrong in that. Saving Ryans Privates (which I really like) is the same thing. Starts out gently and ends out in the oh-so-amazing-hollywood-choirs. Its sentimental. No challenge.

Yes. Thats what it lacks. Challenge.

Candy floss is pink and sweet,
But it cannot get my heart at beat!

Yours - Chris

birdwizard

10-20-2002, 07:33 AM

Thanks Bruce. You didn\'t answer my last post, but now I can understand why. Besides, you facilitated a much better answer to my question now and I have a better understanding of what is uninteresting to you.

My two cents:
I have to agree with Passacaglia, John Williams\' best work is those sort of epic scores. \"Outside his box\". I bought the Minority Report soundtrack and didn\'t like it.Along with STepmother soundtrack -terrible. So many of his I love.

What\'s worse is the fact that I also love Hans Zimmmer. When watching Pearl Harbor I was astonished that the fighting cues were almost identical to Gladiator! I wondered, is that what other composers do? Create a great score and use bits and peices of it for something else.

Paulh

10-20-2002, 08:12 AM

Just spying on this topic, but I don´t think anyone here is in the position to judge Williams as a composer / musician. Sure, it´s nice that everyone has their opinions and all, but It´s just hard for me to understand why people are saying such things about him and are over-analyzing everything.
He´s composer, not a God.

Just my 0.02

Hasen

10-20-2002, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by birdwizard:

What\'s worse is the fact that I also love Hans Zimmmer. When watching Pearl Harbor I was astonished that the fighting cues were almost identical to Gladiator! I wondered, is that what other composers do? Create a great score and use bits and peices of it for something else.Errr James Horner? images/icons/wink.gif

Originally posted by Paulh:
Just spying on this topic, but I don´t think anyone here is in the position to judge Williams as a composer / musician. Sure, it´s nice that everyone has their opinions and all, but It´s just hard for me to understand why people are saying such things about him and are over-analyzing everything.
He´s composer, not a God.

Just my 0.02Exactly.

Simon Ravn

10-20-2002, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by lex:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lewis:
I would LOVE to hear how he would use breakbeats, synths, samples and all the utils we have now.
Yours - ChrisYou can here this in one cue from A.I. . And it is just funny in a horrible way.

Alex[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Track 1 (Mecha World) had GREAT use of synths though (percussive). Williams is usually not very cool with synths.

Simon Ravn

10-20-2002, 08:33 AM

Lewis, you\'re funny. Williams is actually one of the few Hollywood composers who can restrain himself. Especially so during the 90\'s and now the 2000\'s. Where other composers might jump out into a full tutti orchestration to \'under\'-score a romantic moment, Williams might stick to a much gentler expression.

No, Williams is not the guy you come to if you want something completely new and never heard before sound - so what? Originality is not good in itself. Actually originality can be a pain in the *** , whereas GREAT WORK in an already used style can be so much more satisfying for the listener, and for the film. Ligeti\'s irritating piano \'music\' in Eyes Wide Shut is original (maybe) - but it takes the attention away from the film, and had me laughing the first time I saw the movie - probably not the intention, do you think?

Simon Ravn

10-20-2002, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Paulh:
Just spying on this topic, but I don´t think anyone here is in the position to judge Williams as a composer / musician. Sure, it´s nice that everyone has their opinions and all, but It´s just hard for me to understand why people are saying such things about him and are over-analyzing everything.
And why is nobody here in position to judge Williams as a composer/musician??

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Paulh:
I don´t think anyone here is in the position to judge Williams as a composer / musician. Sure, it´s nice that everyone has their opinions and all, but It´s just hard for me to understand why people are saying such things about him and are over-analyzing everything.
He´s composer, not a God.
Paul, every artist who puts his work out there will receive critical review. People are absolutely entitled to express their opinions. I have not seen anyone \"judge\" John Williams.

As far as being \"in a position,\" I\'m not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps you\'re projecting. You\'re young, and barely started in your career as an artist. Don\'t assume that everyone is. There are many people here in a position to speak with great depth about artistic matters.

This phrase \"over-analyzing\" keeps popping up. Analysis is how we deconstruct existing art and learn from it. It\'s how we learn to appreciate artistic depth (or discover its lack). John Williams is no titty-baby. Don\'t worry, he doesn\'t need any gallant defenders. You say he\'s a composer, not a god...yet your post seems to say, \"Hey, don\'t think, just believe.\" Sounds like religion to me.

Paulh

10-20-2002, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Paulh:
I don´t think anyone here is in the position to judge Williams as a composer / musician. Sure, it´s nice that everyone has their opinions and all, but It´s just hard for me to understand why people are saying such things about him and are over-analyzing everything.
He´s composer, not a God.
Paul, every artist who puts his work out there will receive critical review. People are absolutely entitled to express their opinions. I have not seen anyone \"judge\" John Williams.

As far as being \"in a position,\" I\'m not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps you\'re projecting. You\'re young, and barely started in your career as an artist. Don\'t assume that everyone is. There are many people here in a position to speak with great depth about artistic matters.

This phrase \"over-analyzing\" keeps popping up. Analysis is how we deconstruct existing art and learn from it. It\'s how we learn to appreciate artistic depth (or discover its lack). John Williams is no titty-baby. Don\'t worry, he doesn\'t need any gallant defenders. You say he\'s a composer, not a god...yet your post seems to say, \"Hey, don\'t think, just believe.\" Sounds like religion to me.<hr /></blockquote>Yes there are many ways to over-analyze my post too but I meant just what I wrote. Please, do share your opinions everyone... It´s nice that everyone has them, I just pointed out mine!

Paulh

10-20-2002, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Paulh:
Just spying on this topic, but I don´t think anyone here is in the position to judge Williams as a composer / musician. Sure, it´s nice that everyone has their opinions and all, but It´s just hard for me to understand why people are saying such things about him and are over-analyzing everything.
And why is nobody here in position to judge Williams as a composer/musician??<hr /></blockquote>Simon, I guess what I meant was that he´s a good composer. It depends on your point of view. I´m not saying that no-one here is qualified to criticize him and evaluate his work... not at all. Why doesn´t anyone quote the whole post? It was just my 0.02 cents.

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Lewis:
Its always the same sentimental and glamorous style.

Thats what it lacks. Challenge.
I\'m not necessarily speaking of Williams specifically in my distaste for the latest \"hollywood formula\" but this is a very nice description of what I dislike.

I especially like the word GLAMOUR. I think that was a good descriptive choice. Also CHALLENGE is a good word, thanks for that. Challenging someone artistically doesn\'t mean offending them or roughing them up, or even hitting them with something obtuse and difficult to digest. It just means leaving some negative space, some air, some missing pieces of the puzzle that the listener/viewer can arrange for himself. It means leaving something to discuss instead of tying a neat pretty ribbon around every aspect of the piece.

In Signs, for instance (sorry to dwell on that, but it\'s the perfect example), that last pan-shot to Mel\'s character re-donning his collar has this sparkly little sticky-hopeful awestruck theme...yuck. I just laughed out loud it was so inappropriately campy and awful. Never mind that the movie ended itself in such a lame sentimental whimper instead of dwelling on the actual bizarre event that occurred. Everything was suddenly OK and sunshine was streaming. Heck, I practically expected a couple of little birdies to fly in the window and drop a crucifix around his neck.

That\'s not emotion. It\'s cheap throwaway sentimentality. And in matters artistic, that\'s known as a cheap shot. You want to create an atmosphere that allows a person to process and think...not just tug on the emotional strings to get the guaranteed \"tear.\"

donimon

10-20-2002, 10:03 AM

Just to add a different perspective here. I think it\'s sometimes wrong to take a piece from a certain score and hold it as the composer\'s true vision and idea. If anyone here has ever scored a film or tv show (as many have) you know that what eventually makes it to the dub (after taking into account temp scores, directors, producers, etc.) is a much watered down version than if you were just writing a piece of \'film\' music on it\'s own, just to show your orchestration, melody, and innovation chops. I doubt very much that any director is calling John Williams for that \'new synth and breakbeat sound\'. They want the huge epic romantic and amazing \'John Williams\' sound. I just think that composers (no matter at what level) are hired to serve the producer\'s and director\'s vision, and if that means comprimising on originality and experimentation to a degree, the composer must or his/her score will probably be thrown out. That being said, I think there a many amazing things to be learned from the big composers today, from Williams to Zimmer, even if you don\'t like every single note they churn out.....

Lewis

10-20-2002, 10:21 AM

During this wonderful and subjective debate two words pop up in my head.

One is imitation. Now put an \"L\" to imitation and you have limitation. We are all limited - some more then others. Mr. Williams is an \"elder\" man and the very fact that he has 50+ years of composing skill kinda makes me nervous.

Will I not improve even though I try to challenge myself? Will I just sit back and rip my old themes and chordworks? Will I be limited and restrained of using the 1000 of technologies that will surround me? Will I still be stubborn, sit back and claim that surroundsound music is the destruction of our beloved artform?

My point is this:

Repetition is healthy
Repetition is healthy
Repetition is healthy

is it?

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by donimon:
I just think that composers (no matter at what level) are hired to serve the producer\'s and director\'s vision, and if that means comprimising on originality and experimentation to a degree, the composer must or his/her score will probably be thrown out. Certainly this is true to a degree. It would be interesting to know if that music was scored for that scene or hacked in later. But you also have to be willing to stand your ground in a collaboration.

Who better positioned to stand his ground than a composer who carries \"a-list\" status? I think the Williamses, et. al., should actually be held MORE accountable for artistic integrity, since they have the clout to stand up for it. John Williams could tell every other director to kiss his shiny purple peckerhead, and still work all he wants. It\'s not like he\'s trying to break in.

I\'m not really talking about experimentation or originality, but simply avoidance of sentimental hokum. There\'s a whole world of choices between originality and hokum without going to the extremes.

Hasen

10-20-2002, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Paulh:
Just spying on this topic, but I don´t think anyone here is in the position to judge Williams as a composer / musician. Sure, it´s nice that everyone has their opinions and all, but It´s just hard for me to understand why people are saying such things about him and are over-analyzing everything.
And why is nobody here in position to judge Williams as a composer/musician??<hr /></blockquote>You can give your opinion on him, but you can\'t judge him.

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by Hasen:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />And why is nobody here in position to judge Williams as a composer/musician??You can give your opinion on him, but you can\'t judge him.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Aren\'t we getting a little tied up in semantics?

I have not seen anyone \"judge\" John Williams in the sense that they\'ve simply pigeonholed him and dismissed him. Every comment I\'ve seen, positive and negative, has had some truth. For the most part, I think this has been a pretty even discussion.

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 12:48 PM

...which ironically, had nothing to do with John Williams until his name was \"invoked.\"

Sometimes I think this forum needs the \"Hitler rule\" applied to John Williams. The moment someone mentions him, the thread should automatically end. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

birdwizard

10-20-2002, 12:53 PM

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Originally posted by birdwizard:

What\'s worse is the fact that I also love Hans Zimmmer. When watching Pearl Harbor I was astonished that the fighting cues were almost identical to Gladiator! I wondered, is that what other composers do? Create a great score and use bits and peices of it for something else.
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Hasen:Errr James Horner?

Errr What? James Horner does that too?

Hasen

10-20-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hasen:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />And why is nobody here in position to judge Williams as a composer/musician??You can give your opinion on him, but you can\'t judge him.<hr /></blockquote>Aren\'t we getting a little tied up in semantics?
[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Well you shouldn\'t really judge anyone. images/icons/wink.gif

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
...which ironically, had nothing to do with John Williams until his name was \"invoked.\"

Sometimes I think this forum needs the \"Hitler rule\" applied to John Williams. The moment someone mentions him, the thread should automatically end. images/icons/rolleyes.gif Agreed. images/icons/wink.gif

Originally posted by birdwizard:
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Originally posted by birdwizard:

What\'s worse is the fact that I also love Hans Zimmmer. When watching Pearl Harbor I was astonished that the fighting cues were almost identical to Gladiator! I wondered, is that what other composers do? Create a great score and use bits and peices of it for something else.
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Hasen:Errr James Horner?

Errr What? James Horner does that too?Does it - he invented doing it! I think there\'s even a webpage somewhere dedicated to how he copies his own pieces. Better than copying someone else\'s I suppose.

Lewis

10-20-2002, 02:51 PM

We dont judge - we critize. There is a difference. If a person cant deal with the criticism - then dont. But dont judge by saying: \"Dont judge!\".

I mean - who are you to judge? An associate to the old man? Hehehe.

Anyway. Lets settle the waraxe for now. I am pretty sure we will have tons of bonfires on the subject of Mr. Williams artistic quality.

I \"dig\" his stuff. But I dislike listening to the same thing over and over and over. True artists improve - true artists change expression - true artists are contradictory - true artists are NEVER sentimental (thats why they always get married 7 times) and most of all - true artists dont sound like tons of cherry cola and candy floss pouring out in unlimited masses.

Yours beloved - Chris

Hasen

10-20-2002, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Lewis:
We dont judge - we critize. There is a difference. If a person cant deal with the criticism - then dont. But dont judge by saying: \"Dont judge!\".

I mean - who are you to judge? An associate to the old man? Hehehe.
I wasn\'t judging you by saying \"don\'t judge\", I was merely telling you not to judge. You shouldn\'t judge me for doing so.

Hasen

10-20-2002, 03:04 PM

We would like to publically apologise for the overuse of the word \'Judge\' in that last post.

lex

10-20-2002, 05:01 PM

Ok...so we heard a 1000 times, that Williams is an old fart, Hans Zimmer is not a composer, James Horner is writing one same cue for 10 years now...yada,yada,yada...
So what scores do you guys like and why?
Who is your favourite movie composer?

images/icons/smile.gif

Alex

Lewis

10-20-2002, 05:27 PM

I have no favourites except myself. But here are some modern composers that at least challenge themselves and work with changing their expression dramatically from time to time:

Thomas Newman, Ryuichi Sakamoto, Pat Metheny and Bill Laswell (for jazz), Jeff Beal, Gabriel Yared, - and John Barry. Now Barry is a special case. The master of french horns I dare to call him. Barry is not often mentioned here - sadly - since I find him damn good.

Where Barry uses Nostalgia - Williams use sentimentality. Check out Barrys track for \"The Black Hole\" (disney movie from 1974). What a wonderful and innovative track.

Anyway. All in all. Gabriel Yared is my favourite. His score for Talented Mr. Ripley is the best soundtrack released the last 10 years.

Yours - Chris <<<

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 05:32 PM

I liked Glover Gill\'s score for Waking Life...the subject of this thread, remember? images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Ned Bouhalassa

10-20-2002, 05:36 PM

Jerry Goldsmith. I know he\'s done a million films, but Alien (the first one) really stands out in my mind (even if he does stea... borrow from Stravinsky).

Jon Brion for Magnolia. Very emotional.

Thomas Neuman\'s American Beauty. Otherwordly and so catchy.

Vangelis\' Blade Runner, for the obvious reasons (ahead of its time)

Elfman\'s Edward Scissorhands. It made you believe in the story, and added the right touch of pathos.

Nino Rota for the first two Godfather films.

So many more, but I\'ve got to get back to making music!!

Ned Bouhalassa

10-20-2002, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
I liked Glover Gill\'s score for Waking Life...the subject of this thread, remember? images/icons/rolleyes.gif Ooops..
images/icons/shocked.gif

Just for that (and also because I trust your opinion), I\'m going to go out and rent Waking Life later tonight! images/icons/wink.gif

Gaute Storaas

10-20-2002, 06:28 PM

A little more namedropping: Ennio Morricone (just about anything he has done,) and Eliot Goldenthal.

Paulh

10-20-2002, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Gaute Storaas:
A little more namedropping: Ennio Morricone (just about anything he has done,) and Eliot Goldenthal.*runs around screaming* How come I´ve never heard any work of this Ennio Morricone guy? Everyone I´ve talked to says he´s an awesome composer... Could somebody recommend a good score written by him? I´ll check it out for sure.

falcon1

10-20-2002, 06:34 PM

My favourite film scores/pieces are:

* StarWars
* Braveheart (Film sucks, but great music)
* Independence Day (Ok, many cliches but very well constructed musical piece)
* Dragonheart

Btw. I\'m loved many of the songs in Lion King, specially \"Can you feel the love tonight\" and the first song which I can\'t remember the name of.

Having said that, there\'s many other scores which has their moments but just don\'t quite make it to my top list.

Sincerely,
Falcon1

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Paulh:
[QUOTE]How come I´ve never heard any work of this Ennio Morricone guy? You\'ll slap yourself in the head when you hear some of his work, because you\'ll realize you\'ve been hearing it all of your life.

Check out: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, The Mission, The Untouchables, Once Upon a Time in America, Disclosure, and one of my faves, Cinema Paradiso.

Bruce A. Richardson

10-20-2002, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Ned Bouhalassa:
[QUOTE]
Just for that (and also because I trust your opinion), I\'m going to go out and rent Waking Life later tonight! images/icons/wink.gif Groovy, man. I think you\'ll dig the film and the score. It is a chunk of work!!

devinmaxwell

10-20-2002, 11:16 PM

hi. i\'m new to these forums. i don\'t even have a gigasampler yet; however, I do have a few things to add to this discussion, possibly...maybe.

1. *runs around screaming* How come I´ve never heard any work of this Ennio Morricone guy? Everyone I´ve talked to says he´s an awesome composer... Could somebody recommend a good score written by him? I´ll check it out for sure.

in addition to the scores bruce mentioned, I think he did the music to Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down by Almodovar

2. i don\'t have any opinions on mr williams or his music; however, i do dislike it when the wrong person is chosen for any project just because of name, sales, or reputation. i also dislike the use of certain conventions just because they are conventions. the most recent example of this that i saw was the powerpuff girls movie which used a blend of electronic music and an orchestral score. i think the orchestra was a token gesture just because it was a movie. i don\'t know the inside story, but IMHO, it should have used more of the electric bubbly pop stuff that defines the show.

3. in reading all of these posts, i saw someone mention Saving Private Ryan as Saving Ryan\'s Privates. this is funny to me because at an underground film festival in Cincinnati, i saw a movie called Saving Ryan\'s Privates which was a spoof/hybrid of SPR and Apocalypse Now where this guy gets his nuts blown off in Vietnam and retreats into the jungle to write bad erotica. some sort of Special Forces team went in to get him out.

4. my wife and I will rent Waking Life, it sounds really interesting.

devinmaxwell

jack meginniss

10-20-2002, 11:54 PM

Bruce A Richardson wrote:

Check out Waking Life, by Richard Linklatter. Brilliant visuals, and a killer musical scene up top which everyone will appreciate. Thanks for the tip; I look forward to checking out Waking Life.
I am not directing this statement to anyone in particular, I just want to say that everything I have ever heard by John Williams left me saying to myself \"I wish I could do that\" or \"How does he do that?\". I say this in response to harsh critisisms of his works, not in response to complementary statements made of other composers. Even Williams works that do not have strong memorable melodies like some of the more dissonant stuff in A.I. or Attack of the Clones amazes me.
By the way, I heard a live performance of Symphony Fantastic last night. I wish that I had the luxury of hearing live symphonic works more often. There was a very noticable (and enjoyable) razziness (I\'m at a loss for the proper description here) of ALL of the string sections, not just the violas. To help you better understand what I am trying to say, it is this quality that normally makes violas instantly distinguishable from the other stringed instruments. On just about every CD recording that I have ever heard, this sound from the other string sections (basses, cellos, 1st and 2nd violins) is practically non-existant. Everything on the CDs is always very sweet and mellow, which I suppose if preferable, but that razz (whatever you call it) on top of all of the strings was really refreshing.
Jack

MartinL

10-21-2002, 02:13 AM

Just rented Waking Life. I have to agree with Bruce, this is a great movie, and the music is pretty cool! The first \"musical\" scene is really something... images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for the suggestion Bruce!

Martin

Leon Willett

10-21-2002, 02:58 AM

I really dissagree with a lot of people on the notion that John Williams is sickly sweet all the time.

In Starwars II, \"Chase Through Coruscant\" and \"The Bounty Hunter\'s Persuit\" are nice and fierce, and the atonal stuff accompanying the precog visions in MR is as dark as Webern.

Sorry, but it ain\'t JW\'s fault he gets called upon time and time again to produce romantic stuff. That\'s Hollywood\'s fault!

Also I really liked the contrast between the futuristic setting and Williams\' classical-sounding score for MR. For me, it successfully depicted the \"peacful\" and \"perfect\" sheen that society was pretending to have achieved, when things were really rotten behind the scenes, with an oppressive big brother system, halos etc...

Am I the only guy that liked JW\'s use of a contrasting score in MR?

PS Could someone please explain why the hell the eye surgeon helped Tom Cruise?

spectrum

10-21-2002, 07:34 AM

The Minority Report score didn\'t bother me as much as it just seemed like such a missed opportunity. Imagine what Thomas Newman would have done with that movie...that would have been awesome! Minortiy Report needed a more futuristic sonic landscape that was less \"comforting and familiar\".

I really miss hearing great electronic scores like Vangelis and Maurice Jarre were doing in the 80\'s....every movie now has the same pallete of big orchestral and loops. There\'s plenty of good orchestral ones, but the really great electronic scores seem fewer and far between. \"Traffic\" was the last electronic score for a feature film that stands out in recent memory.

A few of my fave electronic scores:

Taxi Driver
Blade Runner
Chariots of Fire
Witness
Mosquito Coast
Run Lola Run
Never Cry Wolf
The Year of Living Dangerously
Traffic
Tron
Clockwork Orange

I know I\'ll think of many more in a second....

spectrum

Thomas_J

10-21-2002, 07:55 AM

Hehe Spectrum, you know it\'s funny. I can\'t stand a single one of those scores you listed there. I do however love Conquest Of Paradise (1492) - it has a nice mixture of electronica and orchestral. Still I think I would have prefered the score if it was 100% orchestral.

As for Minority Report I think many composers out there could have scored it well, but a solution with electronica music would have been too obvious and cliché for my taste. John Williams managed to compose a score that made the orchestra sound very futuristic. It was great. Nothing beats the organic sound of a live orchestra.

I prefer 100% orchestral scores.

Thomas

Bruce A. Richardson

10-21-2002, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by MartinL:
Just rented Waking Life. I have to agree with Bruce, this is a great movie, and the music is pretty cool! The first \"musical\" scene is really something... images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for the suggestion Bruce!

MartinYou\'re welcome, Martin. I loved that scene, and really all of the film was incredible. I\'ve always thought Richard Linklatter was very gifted, but the ability to oversee a collaboration of that depth is pretty remarkable. Just shooting and editing that thing would have been a full film\'s work, but the animation after that is really something else. I thought the score was very well fitted, and in a way it played against the whole visual element and grounded it. I think one might instincually try a much more experimental sound with that kind of film, but it may not have had the same success.

Lewis

10-21-2002, 09:21 AM

Spectrum is right on - we might wanna include Eric Serra in the electronic tribute. Even though \"Le grand bleu\" was dolphine music - it was a very very popular track at its time. Serra also made a decent electronic track for the other Luc Besson movie called: \"The fifth element\".

At least people went WILD about his cut-up-opera stuff. Vangelis was amazing during the 80\'s - but since 1492 its been nothing but repetition.

Where is the electronic spirit? Its not because we lack the technology? Maybe we lack the talents? Most discussion here on northern are mostly related to how we can make the technology sound \"real\". But not many talk about making the technology sounding NOT real.

I remember first listening to Jan Hammers Miami Vice score - what a super track for its days. What happend to Hammer? He released a couple of cd\'s - but they totally lacked energy and synergy.

So many questions - so little time.

passacaglia

10-21-2002, 09:34 AM

I think a synthesis of orchestral and electronic music would have been the best .... not some nasty hack score like Swordfish (boy was that a mess) .... but something very modern, ecclectic, unexpected. To say all movies need orchestral scores is like saying all movies should still be in black and white. I\'m very much a purist, but i can bend all ways ... the most important thing i learned from music school, was to never be like the people i learned from images/icons/smile.gif modern conservatories are stacked deep with elitist attitudes and a musical aesthetic that is a product of the post-modern movement in music. academics have a terrible time justifying their current position in the grand sceme of modern music. mainly, they are extrememly talented and educated, but must teach inorder to make a living, which in turn makes them bitter.

YOU DON\"T like the Taxi Driver score .. man are you nutz!?!?!! LOL .... what a fantastic score!!! if you don\'t know the story behind it, i\'ll try to summize it here .... i must i remind you that that was Herman\'s final score; he died the day after he turned in his final draft.

passacaglia

David Abraham

10-21-2002, 09:57 AM

well I wish I knew enough about scoring to have an educated opinion, I almost never notice the score when watching a good movie, and If I started doing that it would probably ruin the movie going experience, since this would become a more analytical experience. The only score I\'ve ever really noticed and loved was the score to Three Fugitives by David McHugh. I usually get laughed out of the building when I say that, but hey I can\'t control what I like... images/icons/smile.gif

-david abraham

devinmaxwell

10-21-2002, 09:57 AM

lewis:

i\'ve never, until now, attempted to use computers to recreate acoustic music. all of my electronic music (about 15 pieces) has embraced the fact that it is electronic music and tried to create something completely new. i\'ve got samples of this if you want to hear it. anytime i\'ve played it for a producer, or someone in \"Creative Power\", i\'ve gotten the shaft. i was allowed to write music for a dance concert that was pretty cutting edge, but that person came to me rather than me seeking her out.

only now that i am writing music commercially do i have to spend the time and energy to try and recreate something real. i don\'t want to sell myself short by not having the skill; however, for my own music and my first preference will always be to try and make the electronic music sound good rather than trying to make it sound real. that\'s not saying that it can\'t sound real and good, they\'re not mutually exclusive, i\'m just saying that it has to sound good to me.

rest assured that as soon as i get a gigasampler, i\'m going to embrace it as an electronic instrument as well as an imitation of reality.

devin maxwell

Thomas_J

10-21-2002, 09:59 AM

Yeah I know the story. He died in his hotel room after having dinner with his wife, same day as they finished the recording sessions. I think Herrmann has done some MUCH better scores than Taxi Driver.

Maurice Jarre is a a piece of work. He never did anything worth listening to, yet he earned world wide recognition. I know Simon agrees on this one images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

Ned Bouhalassa

10-21-2002, 10:18 AM

A few ideas spring to mind following Spectrum\'s post about the lack of electronic scores in film and other posts about the general lack of adventure in soundtrack writing:

- Producers are conservative and they hold the purse. I have found that even \'wild\' directors can have a pretty \'straight\' musical taste when it comes to soundtracks. Did you know that Luis Bunuel\'s groundbreaking surreal film Chien d\'Andalou (192?), which features a razor blade cutting an eye, uses Beethoven for the soundtrack? Shocking images/icons/rolleyes.gif

- Often we, the composers, are too scared to lose the confidence of our clients, so we play if safe. I know I\'ve been guilty of that more than a few times. Sometimes, I think it\'s also that you can stop trying if \'safe\' gets you plenty of work.

- Electronic scores sound dated very quickly, unless you really know how to write \'music\', and not just cool sounds.

I still hope as well that there will greater integration between instrumental and electronic score writing. I, for one, certainly will try to thrown in a few electroacoustic techniques/textures into any future film work.

Oh, and if you really want to hear something strange, check out the \'soundtrack\' to Eraserhead... images/icons/shocked.gif

10-21-2002, 10:24 AM

Witness

Now that is a cracking score to a cracking film. There were a lot of hackneyed electronic or electro-acoustic scores knocked out in the 80s but, along with scores like Bladerunner, that was one of the greats. When I first saw it as a teenager I thought it was odd for M Jarre to use an electronic score for a film that was so steeped in nature and rural settings. Weir\'s beautifully shot field scenes (and the brilliant swarm-of-bees barn scene) almost seemed to beg for a lush orchestral score, but what makes the score so great as is true of so many works of art is that it does completely the opposite to spellbinding effect.

Thinking of Harrison Ford films, I\'ve always liked the euro sounding score of \"Frantic\" too.

I get so sick of heavy, romantic thickly orchestrated samey scores that have been so very in vogue for the past few years. That\'s not to say some of them aren\'t great (for instance, I love the \"Mask of Zorro\" score), but there have been scores to a number films lately that have made me want to chuck up they\'re so unoriginal and hackneyed. The usual big horn themes, the same old orchestral bangs underneath, the typical I-know-what\'s-coming harmonies, flooding every other moment with music - time after time after time....

It turns me off the films.

I watched the \"Taking of Pelham 123\" last night and was gripped by the hard-edged 70s score. It had harmonic adventure and passion to help carry the action. I long for more of this!.

If the movie calls for a full orchestra on its own then write for it by all means, but try and do so from an original perspective. This is something that is not always easy or possible to do when the temp track insists that the composer copies Newman!.

Hasen

10-21-2002, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by TJ:
Witness

Now that is a cracking score to a cracking film. There were a lot of hackneyed electronic or electro-acoustic scores knocked out in the 80s but, along with scores like Bladerunner, that was one of the greats. When I first saw it as a teenager I thought it was odd for M Jarre to use an electronic score for a film that was so steeped in nature and rural settings. Weir\'s beautifully shot field scenes (and the brilliant swarm-of-bees barn scene) almost seemed to beg for a lush orchestral score, but what makes the score so great as is true of so many works of art is that it does completely the opposite to spellbinding effect.
I have to disagree...I literally just saw Witness and the score was awful. This is the only time I\'ve heard a Maurice Jarre score so I can\'t comment on his other work but I hated this one. It was _too_ simple, just pads here and there for most of the film and in the emotional parts he just totally ruined the scenes with this loud innappropriate music. It was almost like a lesson in what not to do with a score - whether synth or orchestal. Just my opinion of course.

There are some great synth scores though, Bladerunner for one. images/icons/smile.gif

Bruce A. Richardson

10-21-2002, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Ned Bouhalassa:
A few ideas spring to mind following Spectrum\'s post about the lack of electronic scores in film and other posts about the general lack of adventure in soundtrack writing:

- Producers are conservative and they hold the purse. I have found that even \'wild\' directors can have a pretty \'straight\' musical taste when it comes to soundtracks. Did you know that Luis Bunuel\'s groundbreaking surreal film Chien d\'Andalou (192?), which features a razor blade cutting an eye, uses Beethoven for the soundtrack? Shocking images/icons/rolleyes.gif I really like that kind of juxtaposition...extremely disturbing image coupled with something musically very lovely. To me, that can come off far more sinister and disturbing than attempting more of a match.

My comment about the power of the producer is this: Screw producers. The producer always needs you much worse than you need him. If you\'re always willing to bend and \"do what it takes\" that is exactly the kind of gigs you\'ll attract. If you want to attract the gigs that bring artistic freedom, only accept that kind of gig...situations where you are viewed as a full collaborative partner and a principal member of the design team.

This isn\'t baloney. There are many \"quintessential success images\" that make an artist marketable. The \"uncompromising talent\" is one of those success images. You can cultivate any image for yourself you want. The \"do anything he\'s asked go-to guy\" is also a quintessential success image, but it\'s one that requires you be willing to accept that role.

Lewis

10-21-2002, 04:50 PM

Bruce. I dont wanna start a bonfire again. But you last statement - which I really like - reminds me so daringly much about our debate about the \"challenging\" and nodding Mr. Williams.

Everybody rise for the honorable Spielberg - and Mr. Williams - just do what you always do!

Sorry. I just had to say that. Loved your remarks.

Yours Chris --->

10-21-2002, 05:13 PM

For the established (or pretty much established) composer I couldn\'t agree more with you Bruce. The unadventurous producer or director can be a giant pain in the backside. But, for the composer trying to get his or her foot in the door in the film or tv or even jingle world I wouldn\'t necessarily back that attitude. One has to find the right balance of seeming flexibility and originality, and that takes practice and sometimes compromise. Without these things I\'m not sure many would succeed.

10-21-2002, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Thomas_J:

Maurice Jarre is a a piece of work. He never did anything worth listening to, yet he earned world wide recognition. I know Simon agrees on this one images/icons/smile.gif

ThomasJeez Thomas, are you serious? Lawrence of Arabia? The Year of living Dangerously? Not worth listening to? The first few minutes of Lawrence is perhaps the most memorable example of a perfect fusion of image and sound in all of film. David Lean \'leant\' on Jarre until Jarre gave him exactly what he wanted; it worked.

Man, you sound like some people I used to be at college with: \"Mozart is too light.\" All they would listen to was Mahler. You think Williams is a genius and Jarre \"isn\'t worth listening to\"? Crickey, there is no accounting for taste, I suppose. But I know you are a wonderful musician, are you \'really\' listening? Or are you looking at the score and sneering at the \'lack\' of \'complexity\'? What\'s not to like?

I\'m with David Abraham, I almost never even notice the score unless it\'s really bad or really good (in my opinion - and I have no idea where \'my opinion\' comes from; I can\'t help it).

I\'d cite The Mission along with Cinema Paradiso as my \'perfect\' scores.

For me, the great scores add depth, another dimension to the film. If they happen to sound wonderful as well, then maybe that\'s getting toward \'genius\'. I think Williams is a wonderful film composer. I think ET had some beautiful stuff, and Jaws was creepy. I don\'t get this \'either or\' attitude to film music. I can\'t think of a single film that was completely destroyed by a score (although now I\'m thinking about it there was a Mad Max movie that had some of the worst orchestral gibberish I\'ve ever heard - I think it might have been Brian May - stick to guitar.), and I doubt a score can save a bad film.

Go listen again. I just can\'t believe you could write off such wonderful music as not even worth listening to. You\'d better hope you never have to sell your own stuff (which sounds great to me) to anyone with such an unbowing predisposition. If you ever even come close to writing a theme as strong as the Year of Living Dangerously, you will deserve any world-wide recognition that might come your way. If you can score the first couple of minutes of anything with a tenth of the strengh of Lawrence, you\'ll deserve a sackful of oscars. Go watch it again. Get your ears syringed, and imagine you have no idea how it looks on the page. Just listen.

Whoops, almost forgot; my other favorite all time score: Oh, Brother Where Art Thou.

If you still don\'t like it after another listen we should lock you in a cell and make you listen to Celine Dione until you recognise Dolly Parton as a great songwriter. We should rivet headphones onto you that only play Andrew lloyd Webber until the genius of Rogers and Hart is revealed. We should force you to listen to Gilbert and Sullivan... no, on second thought, that\'s too cruel.

KingIdiot

10-21-2002, 06:27 PM

Film composers are all hacks!

the real geniuses are the guys who wrote music for the c64!

images/icons/tongue.gif

devinmaxwell

10-21-2002, 06:32 PM

SID CHIP GALORE!!!!!

Simon Ravn

10-21-2002, 06:42 PM

Oh yes. Rob Hubbard, Martin Galway, Maniacs of Noise, Ben Daglish!! images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas_J

10-21-2002, 07:09 PM

Haha Z6, as usual you are spot on with your comments. First of all, thanks for the nice words! I appreciate it!

I\'m one of those guys who actually think Mozart is too \"light\" and rather listen to Mahler images/icons/smile.gif That still doesn\'t mean I don\'t like Mozart, though. His requiem includes some of the most beautiful choral music ever written and I get goosebumps just thinking of it. Still Mahler is more my cup of tea. He composed in a way that brought out true emotional expression that usually leaves me in a puddle of tears, gasping for air. (Ok slightly overdone statement but you get the picture images/icons/wink.gif

You are right, I jumped to conclusions a little too early (what else is new images/icons/wink.gif I actually have the original LP of Lawrence of Arabia and remember enjoying the score very much. It\'s been a while since I listened to it, but just because of your post I will give it another go. It just didn\'t cross my mind when I wrote the post.

Ennio Morricone is nothing short of a musical wizard. He does unbelievable things with such limiting and limited tools and The Mission is out of this world. Simply brilliant in every aspect (except maybe for the harpsichord which tends to drag and mess up the beautiful arrangement at times.)

John Williams is and will probably always be my favorite film music composer, and Gustav Mahler will remain my favorite post-romantic composer.

There are some pretty terrible scores out there by Maurice Jarre. He has a bad habit of making his underscoring sound uninspired. They always drag to me, but again these are just personal opinions. I realize my \"not worth listening to\" comment was a bit harsh. I\'d like to retract it, and until I\'ve listened again with my matured ears from an objective perspective, I will not post another degrading opinion on Maurice and his music.

But you gotta admit, not everything he did is worth listening to...

images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

Didier Rachou

10-21-2002, 07:16 PM

To Thomas J:

I simply don\'t have the time to jump in to these sorts of discussions (this guy is great and that one is bad, etc.) but this time I believe I must....

I am a big fan of your work and have been inspired by it over the course of my time here lurking about in this forum, which is why I was let down and surprized by your attitude towards Maurice Jarre. I know we are all entitled to our opinions and the rest of it....but...

Here is an artist who has not only embraced technology (yes, Witness/Enemy Mine/ Ghost-era scores, but his embracing the Ondes Martenot during his David Lean-era). Shocking to me, since your wonderful piece \"Flight Over Rivendale\" is laden with \'ethnic \' elements.......... listen to Lawrence and he was trying all of this out in the 60\'s - before he could do pre-records and sequencing.

Aside from navigating the \'difficult\' politics of Hollywood and winning 3 Oscars along the way....he has a musical voice that will make him immortal. How many people from different generations have been moved by Lean\'s films and their scores??? Lawrence, Passage To India, Ryan\'s Daughter, Zhivago.......

Please understand, I am not upset, just a bit taken aback is all. Thanks again for sharing your music and programming wisdom in the past.

Respectful regards,
Didier

Didier Rachou

10-21-2002, 07:21 PM

Thomas,

As it turns out, I was writing my missive to you whilst you were posting yours.

Fair enough. My faith has been restored without having to go thru an alien invasion of men in cheap green outfits who squirt poison gas from their wrists. images/icons/wink.gif

Enjoy the Lawrence LP.

Regards,
Didier

Thomas_J

10-21-2002, 07:35 PM

Didier, thank you for your kind words. My post was based on ignorance rather than knowledge. Shame on me. images/icons/smile.gif I regard every successful composer out there as a better composer than myself and when I listen to their music I always find something that impresses me. Whether it\'s the writing, the orchestration or just the sound of it.

I agree with you. This whole discussion is pointless, so lets just stop it. I don\'t mind people who dislike John Williams\' music, and I don\'t mind people who worship Britney Spears (ok perhaps just a little bit .. images/icons/smile.gif , so lets just be friends and keep on conceiving music and strive toward our goals images/icons/smile.gif

Thomas

10-21-2002, 07:41 PM

Hey Thomas. I understand you\'re making your own way as a composer and naturally form strong opinions so that you can competely \'absorb\' whatever it is that moves you.

You\'re absolutely OK in my book (and I wouldn\'t be surprised at all if you did go on to make much memorable music).

As I get older, I\'m drawn more and more to Mozart\'s \'simplest\' music (of course, none of it is \'simple\' - there really isn\'t any such thing as musical complexity or simplicity (unless you\'re writing it or super-imposing it as a listener), it\'s all in the brain/soul of the beholder), and I\'m going crazy for Beethoven now that I don\'t have anyone shoving him down my throat.

Mahler is good too images/icons/wink.gif

Didier Rachou

10-21-2002, 08:27 PM

Sorry, I hit the wrong button.

Leon Willett

10-22-2002, 02:45 AM

Darn, nobody knows why the eye surgeon helped Tom Cruise in Minority Report. images/icons/frown.gif

It\'s killing me!

shadowbox

10-22-2002, 10:09 AM

I know I\'m getting in on this thread late, and it has nothing to do with Waking Life but FWIW---

I watched Gladiator last night for the 3rd or 4th time. And while I think the score has some great themes, I don\'t like the way most of it sounds. Like most of Hans Zimmer\'s stuff, the string arrangements sound like they were written on a keyboard. (Which they most likely were.) I think the thing about John Williams is that he is one of the few film composers that chooses to make an orchestra sound like a classical orchestra. For example, listen to SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET. It is a beautiful score. In 30 years, most if not all of Williams scores will hold up. Zimmer\'s scores will sound like 1990s or 2000s. I would love to hear the themes of Gladiator re-orchestrated by Williams/Neufeld, and recorded by Shawn Murphy.

That said, I don\'t think Williams would have ever brought in someone like Lisa Gerrard as Zimmer did. This is the real strength of the Gladiator score.

franz

10-22-2002, 10:36 AM

Music for films is decided by the director, the producer and the music supervisor NOT the composer. Zimmer, Williams and CO are slaves to these people and have to suppress every original idea they have. Talking about someones music for films as if it would be his original work is completely moot.
It\'s more like this: \"Hey John we need a piece that sounds like ... and is ... long, can you have to me by 5?\"

shadowbox

10-22-2002, 10:55 AM

Very true. But I think with guys like Zimmer and Williams they are hired with their sound in mind. I am sure that Ridley Scott wanted Gladiator to sound slick and synthy. He wanted an Epic sound with a contemporary spin.He often leans towards this type of score. It matches the look of the film. He wanted an Epic sound with a new spin.Whereas Spielberg likes the classical sound, which is why he uses Williams.

jsd

10-22-2002, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by spectrum:
I really miss hearing great electronic scores like Vangelis and Maurice Jarre were doing in the 80\'s....every movie now has the same pallete of big orchestral and loops. There\'s plenty of good orchestral ones, but the really great electronic scores seem fewer and far between. \"Traffic\" was the last electronic score for a feature film that stands out in recent memory.amen. traffic was a great flick and score. i just watched \"changing lanes\" last night (ben affleck/sam jackson) and it had a very good score by david arnold. mostly electronic with drum n bass beats, excellent for building up the tension and feeling of a big city that\'s just grinding you down.

i liked the movie quite a bit too.

i do miss the heyday of electronic scores. yeah there was a lot of crap but at least people were trying something different. can you imagine blade runner without vangelis? you know if they made it today it would be 90% orchestra (even if sampled). so sad.

-jsd-

shadowbox

10-22-2002, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by jsd:
can you imagine blade runner without vangelis? you know if they made it today it would be 90% orchestra (even if sampled). so sad.This is a very funny quote. Not that I entirely disagree with it. The score for Blade Runner is one of my favorites. It\'s just completely opposite of the usual argument--that the orchestra is getting replaced by synths.

On a related note, I saw Chariots of Fire recently. And while there\'s no arguing that the main them is a great piece of music. It now seems completely wrong. At the time the movie was made, it was so inventive to have such an anachronistic sound in a period piece. But now it sounds so dated its laughable. Like Beverly Hills Cop. Interestingly though, Blade Runner holds up very well. I\'m not sure if that is because of the subject matter or the score, but it is still a great score.

dwdonehoo

10-22-2002, 06:00 PM

\"Like most of Hans Zimmer\'s stuff, the string arrangements sound like they were written on a keyboard.\"

You might want to blame the orchestrator. Not that there is any blame at all. Try listening to the last part of \"The Might of Rome\": very Wagnarian. Or the marching marcato counterpoint of \"Crimson Tide\". I have yet to hear anythig from Zimmer that sounded like it was \"written on a keyboard\". Not in any final orchestration. images/icons/rolleyes.gif
(And I may point out that much of the great masters orchestral works were worked out on a piano...keyboard.)

Sorry Bruce. Looks like your thread got Bogarted again...

shadowbox

10-23-2002, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by dwdonehoo:
\"Like most of Hans Zimmer\'s stuff, the string arrangements sound like they were written on a keyboard.\"

You might want to blame the orchestrator. Not that there is any blame at all...SNIP...I have yet to hear anythig from Zimmer that sounded like it was \"written on a keyboard\". I should have been more specific. Obviously, many composers use keyboards to write. What I meant was that the chords seem to be blocked in the way they would be blocked as if playing a string patch on a synth. And I think most of Zimmer\'s stuff sounds like this. This sounds derogatory, but it\'s not. He has developed his own sound, and however he achieves it is besides the point. It\'s very lush and modern. (But you are right, parts of Gladiator, like the opening battle scene, are much more classical sounding.)

pmuse

10-24-2002, 01:01 AM

Well thanks, Bruce. I finally got around to checking out \"Waking Life\". Wow. Where have I been? Amazing. OK, no spoilers here, so about the music...

Glover Gill and the Tosca Tango Orchestra did a fine job. No synths or samplers here, I\'m afraid, and very nice compositions indeed. He\'s pretty much a self taught musician. I remember first seeing Glover in a punk band back in the day (circa 1980) called D-Day with a gal named Luellen. They had a hit song \"Too Young to Date\" and toured the country.

I remember being outside a club in the mid-80s here in Austin and hearing some ripping lead coming out the door. I asked the door guy \"who\'s that playing guitar\". \"Oh that\'s Glover\". Turns out there was no guitar player in the band at all and he was screaming on something like a Mirage sampler. I tell you he was articulating a tiny coarse stretched guitar sample like nobody\'s business. Nowadays we just like to belly ache about how unrealistic our samples sound.

He also didn;t just wake up one day and say, \"I\'m gonna write tangos.\" For years he had a swinging cabaret band \'8 1/2 Souvenirs\' that played m a more European flavored Django type \'gypsy-jazz\' and progressed from that out of the highly commercialized retro-swing nightmare of the nineties.

Glover mostly plays piano, he\'s got two old Steinways in his living room, and accordian. I think he\'s a precious anachronism in this age of \'button-pushing\' quick and dirty production. I guarantee you he doesn\'t work fast either.

I\'m really glad I checked out \"Waking Life\". I saw an old artist friend\'s name in the credits and will try to get back in touch. Thanks, Bruce.

Kevin