IDEA: Forum User's Mock Up Comparison.

[Munsie]

I\'m not a commercial composer, but it would be SO COOL to see you composer guys do a mock up of the same tune using all of your tricks, edits, samples, etc, and then compare the results via mp3 files. Each of you would post a link to your mp3 file along with a detailed description of every sample, sound module, etc, used. I\'m sure the thread would spark some interesting discussion about technique, sample libraries, etc. To keep things from getting to bogged down, perhaps the mock up should be limited to the first 60 seconds or so. I don\'t have a composition to recommend but hopefully one of you guys can jump in and further develop this idea. It would be one of the most intresting threads to read on this forum!

[PolarBear]

Well this would be a great idea, also I don\'t think too much people would chime in if it comes down to tricks...

Suggestions for the piece can be taken from the demo suggestions for the QLSO. I think there are plenty of them.

Hansi

[MartinL]

I think you have a great idea, and I would love to see a thing like this on this board.

Why not make the intro of \"Also Sprach Zarathustra\" from Strauss? It lasts a little more than one minute, and uses a full orchestra (only 2 pages and a half).

If not, we could do an excerpt from Stravinski\'s \"Rite of Spring\". (\"Adoration of the earth\" would be great!)

I have both scores here (and some others), and I could scan some pages to make it available for everyone. (I think that it is legal to scan just of few pages of a book for non-commercial purposes.)

So what do you think? Who\'s in?

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Copying and distributing score excerpts without permission from the publisher would be a copyright violation, btw.

[BlueScreen]

What a good idea! I would love to join in a digital orchestra shootout! It would also be nice to hear other composers\' original pieces as well.

Count me in!
images/icons/cool.gif

[KingIdiot]

Metropolis by Dream Theater.

[carlmsmith]

Copying and distributing score excerpts without permission from the publisher would be a copyright violation, btw.

--------------------
Bruce Richardson
Bruce Richardson Music

Did anybody just feel a splash of cold water?

How about choosing something that\'s clearly public domain?

Carl
Garden Creek Music

[Bruce A. Richardson]

....Did anybody just feel a splash of cold water?...

No, not my intention at all. There\'s just a difference in a piece of MUSIC being in the public domain and a published score being in the public domain. Even a public domain piece is published by someone (or no scores/sheet music would exist!) and those **publications** are protected.

[midphase]

Ok, here\'s the deal...

We all start with the same SMF file of a classical composition (or score). Those are public domain and available everywhere.

The deal is that we all have to start with the same file....and then apply our tricks to it to make it sound decent. Generally those files are pretty stiff and lifeless so it\'ll be a good challenge to everyone.

Now for the tough part......somebody pick something........I vote for the 1st movement of Dumbarton Oaks by Stravinsky or the first 50 bars of the Ouverture Midsummer Night\'s Dream by Mendelssohn!

[Hasen]

Didn\'t we already do this with the ET theme?

[Beckers]

Originally posted by Bruce A. Richardson:
Copying and distributing score excerpts without permission from the publisher would be a copyright violation, btw.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It is possible to claim \"Fair Use\", which I think would apply in this situation. There is no commercial purpose or intent, the effect on the market is zero. You can easily use a portion of a copyrighted work without permission of the copyright holder for a purpose such as this, which equates with teaching and research; \"equitable rule of reason\" would apply.

[midphase]

Yes, now the kids want to do it again......just like Survivor 2!

[Thomas_J]

It\'s a cool idea, but I doubt you\'ll get many people in on it. If anyone should be doing this it should be the developers themselves.

As for score excerpts I don\'t think you necessarily need a score for \"also spracht\" as there are plenty of complete .mid renditions for free on the net. They have been inputted note by note by patient people and they represent many scores 100%.

Maybe those could be of use to you.

Thomas

[passacaglia]

I seriously doubt many of us have time for such a thing ..... maybe the hobbyist do?

As far as copyright infringment ..... i also doubt there is much consequence to creating a mock-up for the simple joy of it. As long as the individual does not intend to profit from it, there should be no problem.

What is the difference between the Cleveland Symphony performing a Mozart Concerto and an individual doing a mock-up ??? The symphony does not need to pay royalities to the family of Mozart (not to mention, there is no direct family), nor to the publisher of the score. Yet the symphonies and performers get paid. Yes, there is more to the story indeed. Venues pay dues to publishing companies, as do clubs that feature cover bands, etc.

Honestly ... when in college i found it very frustrating having to pay $40 for a Bach Lute Suite (violin partitias) transcription, when knowing that the $$ simply goes to a publishing company/distributor. Five dollars seems like fair compensation (note the specific score i am speaking of contained no editorial markings, fingerings .. nothing ...) for something written nearly 300 years ago.

passacaglia

[Marsdy]

My vote goes to the Monster Mash, or maybe Be My Baby by the Ronettes.

Seriously and with respect, I think this is a silly idea that turns music into a point scoring competition rather than a means of creative expression.

I\'m not really interested in hearing who can get closest to the real thing and lets face it, current technolgy isn\'t remotely close to REAL musical expression anyway, we\'re just getting better at faking it! I\'d much rather hear something original and fresh myself. Isn\'t music really all about artistic expression rather than doing a carbon copy of someone else\'s work?

Personally, I\'m a little tired of listening to upteenth mock ups of the same old Hollywood thriller scores, (I admit my day job means I\'m as guilty as anyone on this count.) I think it\'s one reason why Hans Zimmer is so popular around here, he\'s comparatively easy to rip-off. Not many people are doing mock ups of Bernard Herrman, Korngold, or the more sophisticated John Williams stuff are they? And why do a mock up anyway?

Hans Zimmer may not be the greatest composer in the world and I suspect he would be the first to admit that. What he does have is his own sound that is often copied but never bettered. That\'s why he get\'s work, people buy HIS sound like they buy John Williams\'s sound or Thomas Newmann\'s sound. I suspect these people aren\'t were they are today because they can do mock ups of other people\'s work. It\'s because the have their own voice, (and they can deliver on time of course!)

Finally, ask yourself this question.... How many times have you heard an mp3 with a certain anvil sample on it recently???!!!!!

[Beckers]

On the other hand I think this would be a valuable learning exercise and to see whether each individual can meet the increasing standards being set, or whether we need to work harder or buy new libraries.

There really are no real restrictions on what we can use for this. On copyright: a score sheet may be protected by three separate copyrights: 1) the original composition, 2) the edition, 3) the actual print.

The composer of the original work automatically owns the copyright (unless made for hire, or sold to a publisher) -and controls performing rights- for 70yrs. After this the work passes into the public domain, unless the owner seeks to extend this. A new edition, although derivative, has its own copyright protection, and so does any original print of any work. (Obviously new editions and prints of copyrighted works can only be published under licence).

For the Bach Lute transcription: the original work is in the public domain, the Lute transcription edition may not be. New editions, particularly if published by the editor with small print runs, can be very expensive.

Incidentally, no performance fees should be payable for performing a Mozart concerto, unless it is a new edition. However, the score sheets for each performer need to be bought seperately. They may not be photocopied as the print will carry copyright protection.

Large scale copying in a commercial training setting is not fair use. On the other hand, smaller scale copying in highschool music departments is fair use. Copying protected prints or recording protected compositions purely for the purposes of enhancing the art of mock-upping is clearly fair use. Using mock-ups as demos to sell sample libraries is obviously Not fair use.

The equitable rule of reason exists to avoid stiffling the very creativity which the copyright law is designed to foster.

BTW Does anybody else think this is a great line, but absolute bollocks: \"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture\"

[pantonality]

Hi Beckers,

I believe the talking about music is like dancing about architecture can be attributed to the comedian Martin Mull. Given that the source is a comedian then how seriously would you intend to take it? Though I believe your point is that speech is a more effective medium for literal communication than dance, and I would agree with that.

As for your assessment of the copyright situation I think you nailed it. If the intent is noncommercial then fair use is applicable. I don\'t believe you\'d get in trouble for short score excerpts (BUT, I\'m not an expert in copyright law). However distributing a complete section such as the opening of Zarathustra may get you into trouble. The midi files available on the net would probably be the best starting point.

However as a composer with very limited time I have to say that I barely have time to properly sequence my own work. OTOH, I\'m sure I would find it a valuable learning experience. The bottom line is it will depend on what piece we choose. For me Stravinsky or Mendelssohn would be favored over Mozart.

Steve Chandler
http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\")
aka Ettienne
http://www.mp3.com/ettienne (\"http://www.mp3.com/ettienne\")

[Beckers]

Originally posted by pantonality:

I believe the talking about music is like dancing about architecture can be attributed to the comedian Martin Mull. Given that the source is a comedian then how seriously would you intend to take it? Though I believe your point is that speech is a more effective medium for literal communication than dance, and I would agree with that.

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">This line appears as a footer on posts from Passacaglia, where he attributes it to Elvis Costello. I took it to be a very eloquent and humourous way of making a serious point, that talking about music is inane and pointless; (in other words \"play, don\'t talk\"). As these boards prove, this is nonsense.

Martin Beckers

[PatS]

Take your pick: Talking about music is like dancing about architecture (\"http://home.pacifier.com/~ascott/they/tamildaa.htm\").

[pantonality]

Pat, thanks for clarifying the matter. images/icons/blush.gif

Steve

[dwdonehoo]

\"Finally, ask yourself this question.... How many times have you heard an mp3 with a certain anvil sample on it recently???!!!!!\"

Hmmmm. Let me think... Maybe because Tob/GTown provided a free .gig with an \"anvil\" sound, and it is a new toy? And you think its use is a Zimmer influence? Maybe, maybe. Maybe also there could be a little LOTR/Shore influence there too, dontchathink? The Aliens score, lots of anvils in there too. Hey, maybe its not just one or two things at all. Maybe there are more influences at work than one would think. Yup.

\"Copying and distributing score excerpts without permission from the publisher would be a copyright violation...\"

This is still up in the air in the matter of Quotes. A whole score, bad, illegal. A quote, a section, that is a point of battle recently. Hollywood types not only want to own things forever, but want to forbid quotes even. Excerpts should still be leagal by law, but that does not keep the rich and powerful (like Lucas et.al.) from sueing at the drop of a hat. We will see where that goes...

Anyway, back to the point: pick some Beethoven or Wagner or something, and go with that.

[BlueScreen]

Ya know, with these new brass libraries out, I would love to hear people mock-up some Wagner (Valkeries) or Holst (Mars). It would be great to hear how far we can push the edge of realism between Maarten and Dan Dean.

[Marsdy]

Originally posted by dwdonehoo:
\"Finally, ask yourself this question.... How many times have you heard an mp3 with a certain anvil sample on it recently???!!!!!\"

Hmmmm. Let me think... Maybe because Tob/GTown provided a free .gig with an \"anvil\" sound, and it is a new toy? And you think its use is a Zimmer influence? Maybe, maybe. Maybe also there could be a little LOTR/Shore influence there too, dontchathink? The Aliens score, lots of anvils in there too. Hey, maybe its not just one or two things at all. Maybe there are more influences at work than one would think. Yup.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I didn\'t mean just Zimmer was the only one hammering away on an anvil but that it was a Hollywood score cliche period. I\'m sure you\'re right about the new toy thing with regards to Tob\'s samples.

[franz]

simply use anyone of these:

http://www.classicalarchives.com/index.html (\"http://www.classicalarchives.com/index.html\")

Actually it would be nice to do an orchestral comparison with all these new libraries WITHOUT ANY TRICKS just applying simple patches to the GM files on this site.
Maybe we could do a vote on which file to use...