Ethical Question...

[J. Whaley]

2 years ago I bought AO for Akai. I never really had much RAM in my Akai and got very limited use out of AO. After I got giga I translated everything, but it\'s still all spread out like the Akai disks come. I know they have updated and created a GS version. I called Best Service and they offered to let me \"upgrade\" for 1/2 price because they can\'t sell the current library I own since it\'s used. Well, I didn\'t do it cause I\'ve never been jumping about this library anyway. But if I could get ahold of the Giga files it would be nice to have them. I paid like $1200 for the whole collection, \'97 upgrade and all. And I\'ve never even come close to getting my money\'s worth out of it.

So my question is this, is it possible for some one to email me the GS data files that would just call up the samples from my akai versions (they\'re translated to giga now). I know a couple of people have uploaded files that are fairly small and they just replace the way Giga plays the samples on the drive (although I forget what they\'re called). If this is possible then it shouldn\'t be too hard I wouldn\'t think.

Second question, presuming it\'s possible to email the stuff, is it ethical? I\'m real picky about making sure things are honest and not infringing on copyrights, but I do own the samples. I\'ve paid full price for them and all I\'m needing is the giga files so I don\'t have to go through them all to set them up. From my conversation with the lady at best service, the only reason they would charge me is because at the end of the day I would end up with 2 sets of the same library. Any feedback on this????

[PeterRoos]

My 2 cts: you DO own a license to use the AKAI version, including the raw samples/sounds in that library. But you DO NOT own a user license for the Giga programming... which of course is a pain in the /wallet.

Same for me with Ultimate Strings (lots cheaper than AO of course...). I\'m not going to upgrade from Akai to the Giga version, althought it is probably more usable...

In your case, I\'d pick some of the better AO instruments (flute, violins p, harp glisses, etc) and re-program them myself with GigaEditor. I have made some handy X-fade patches from my AKAI Ultimate Strings, that are actually good and compact alternatives to some bigger GOS instruments.

[midphase]

I have to jump in here and bring up this particular case as one of the instances where the developer\'s rules really break down.

The developers make such a big stink about how we\'re not buying the sample collection but merely licensing the usage. Well....if that is truly the case then East West should exchange your Akai versions for the Giga version for no more cost than the price difference between the Akai version and the Giga (if any) and the cost of shipping an handling and perhaps another $20 for the media. All in all the whole exchange shouldn\'t cost you more than $100 at most (and ideally a lot less).

The fact that East West wants to charge you 50% of the original price on top of what you already paid is just a ludicrous and greed driven decision IMHO.

There is nothing unethical about wanting to switch platforms and this is the one instance in which by not allowing a low cost exchange, the developer is truly encouraging piracy!

I would highly reccomend that you bring up to East West their own rules and urge them to treat you responsibly.

Doug....any comments?

[J. Whaley]

I have a comment, East West isn\'t the problem (well they might be but not in the case of AO). AO is owned by best service and distributed by Sounds Online... which technically is East West I guess, but when I called Sounds Online they made me call Best Service...... so.... yea Doug, what can YOU do about this???!!!

(I agree with all your comments Mid-phase. That\'s how I feel. I\'d be happy to pay shipping, and maybe even a little extra for cost of production, but I\'m not going to spend $300-$600 to Cross-grade. The Librarie\'s just not worth it. I have GOS which has better strings, I\'ve got SAM horns coming which are better, and I\'d rather use my 600 buckos to get Ultimate Timpani and maybe London Perc... I don\'t really NEED AO, I just want it in giga cause that\'s what I use now.... I can\'t find the ethical problem there myself)

[J. Whaley]

Thanks Doug. For what it\'s worth, I already have the \'97 upgrade, and paid for it when I bought the first 5 CDs. So I have the whole thing. I\'m happy to pay for some Giga programming, but not 1/2 the price of the library. It\'s really just a PR issue for Best service because it comes down to making people like me happy or not. I\'m not going to drop the dough so no matter what they do they\'re not making money. But I will say nicer things about them if they make me happy.... I think I speak for most users. Reality is AO isn\'t the cutting edge library it once was, and they\'ve got to deal with it. You know yourself as you\'re developing your own new library. So... feed that to the pie and see what we can get! I\'d even be happy like I said earlier if they\'d post the files that we could download. At they Rar files? I\'m not sure what they\'re called but I know King Idiot has done some tweaks to some things like SAM trumpets and posted just the tweak. I think that\'s all that would be needed is to post a downloadable file that would take the samples we have and use them properly. that\'s my thoughts..

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by midphase:

The developers make such a big stink about how we\'re not buying the sample collection but merely licensing the usage. Well....if that is truly the case then East West should exchange your Akai versions for the Giga version for no more cost than the price difference between the Akai version and the Giga (if any) and the cost of shipping an handling and perhaps another $20 for the media. All in all the whole exchange shouldn\'t cost you more than $100 at most (and ideally a lot less).

Doug....any comments?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">The problem for us is a practical one. We can do this for our own products, but the suppliers of our distributed products, in most cases, (such as AO) do not want to do this, unless it occurs within a reasonable time (similar to a limited warranty).

Their reasoning is (let\'s take AO as an example), users have been using this library for up to ten years, and in most cases, when they purchase a new sampler, they keep the original sampler, so the original format has been in use for some time, and is still useful to them. In this case the \'crossgrade\' is more like an \'additional license\', plus the Giga version has a lot of additional features that took time to program (and it includes AO upgrade, which lists for $399 and is not included in the other versions).

The problem has increased dramatically recently, as there has been an avalanche of users defecting from Akai, Emu, Kurzweil and Roland to software samplers. We are talking many thousands of \'crossgrades\', \'upgrades\', \'additional licenses\' - whatever you want to call them, that cost us an enormous amount of time and money to service.

However, I would like to find a solution that everyone is more comfortable with, so I\'ll discuss it again with our suppliers, and I\'ll let you know the outcome.

Doug Rogers
EASTWEST

[Simon Ravn]

Whaley, what KingIdiot has done, is to make .ART files - files only containing new programming of existing .GIG files. This can\'t be done with AO in this case, since you don\'t have the AO .GIG files, and an .ART file will need to be imported into the relevant .GIG file to work. An .ART file can\'t combine samples that are not in the .GIG file already.

[midphase]

Their reasoning is (let\'s take AO as an example), users have been using this library for up to ten years, and in most cases, when they purchase a new sampler, they keep the original sampler, so the original format has been in use for some time, and is still useful to them. In this case the \'crossgrade\' is more like an \'additional license\', plus the Giga version has a lot of additional features that took time to program (and it includes AO upgrade, which lists for $399 and is not included in the other versions).
The problem has increased dramatically recently, as there has been an avalanche of users defecting from Akai, Emu, Kurzweil and Roland to software samplers. We are talking many thousands of \'crossgrades\', \'upgrades\', \'additional licenses\' - whatever you want to call them, that cost us an enormous amount of time and money to service. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I think there are valid arguments on both sides of the fence. If I buy a PAL tv and later move to the States, I can\'t trade it for an NTSC model.

In this case the cost to the manufacturer is essentially the hard cost of the product (say about $5/disc and packaging.....quite generous) and the shipping and handling (say about $20 total). So on a 5 disc set like AO, we\'re talking about $45 to upgrade. Usually if there is a difference in price between the Akai version and the Giga version that difference could be applied here. Say $99 between the two versions. So that\'s $144....not cheap but more reasonable than $300.

I think it\'s a win win situation...Best Service gets a little more money without spending anything extra (they already paid to manufacture the CD\'s), you guys are compensated for the shipping and handling, and the user can now utilize his library in the sampler of his choice.

Sometimes it seems so easy, I really don\'t know why when you get multiple people involved everything becomes a huge hassle.

Doug, perhaps since you guys are getting more demand for this type of format trading, you should address is formally on your web site and formulate an official trade up cost so that consumers are aware before their purchase of the product. Futher, as you ink distribution deals with your third party developers, you could enforce that they abide by your trade up policy.

Thanks for your prompt reply, it\'s nice to have you on these boards!

[shawn]

Originally posted by midphase:
In this case the cost to the manufacturer is essentially the hard cost of the product (say about $5/disc and packaging.....quite generous) and the shipping and handling (say about $20 total). So on a 5 disc set like AO, we\'re talking about $45 to upgrade. Usually if there is a difference in price between the Akai version and the Giga version that difference could be applied here. Say $99 between the two versions. So that\'s $144....not cheap but more reasonable than $300.

I think it\'s a win win situation...Best Service gets a little more money without spending anything extra (they already paid to manufacture the CD\'s), you guys are compensated for the shipping and handling, and the user can now utilize his library in the sampler of his choice.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Except.... The Akai and Giga versions of the Advanced Orchestra set sell for the same price, currently around $680. And it doesn\'t cost anywhere near $5/CD for manufacturing or $20 for shipping. If developers want their customers to take their \"you\'re not buying the samples, you\'re licensing them\" mantra seriously, they should be willing to put their money where their mouth is.

I understand there are differences in programming -- but if that\'s the case, they can calculate what percentage of the \"cost\" of the library went to the programming instead of the recording. I\'m sure a lot of re-programming went into the Giga version. But c\'mon, it\'s a pretty comprehensive set -- I\'m betting the original recording sessions cost a hell of a lot more than the Giga programming. So if they want to be fair to their customers while living up to the \"samples are licensed\" model, they should offer a cross-grade that covers the cost of programming plus maybe $10-20 for manufacturing costs.

Or at least that\'s the way I see it.

-Shawn

[J. Whaley]

Yes, I could support this idea. I think $49 would be a nice price that would cover manufacturing and ground shipping, $79 would maybe cover a little inconvienience for the company, $99 could pay a little towards the extra cost of programming. I might would pay $149, but that\'s tops. I think $99 is pretty fair. Frankly Best Service is getting a good deal cause they\'re making an extra 100 buck from me! I know Thomas Skarby would love to make 100 bucks from me!

I Also agree that all companies should post a trade-in policy. That\'s what software companies do. In fact, I just bought Sibelius for only $179 because I\'m a Finale user. I sent in my manual for Finale and they sent me Sibelius. If I\'m using Logic for Mac and want to switch to windows, it\'s like $79. (well, not anymore, but you get the idea). Sound developers should take this to heart, certainly for these big expensive libraries.

[J. Whaley]

Simon thanks for the reply on the ART files. I knew what I meant I just couldn\'t think of the name.

So they won\'t work even if I\'ve converted the Akai format to Gigs? Oh well.... it was worth a try. Maybe Doug can figure out a way for me to get a hard copy from Best Service for a resonable price.
J-

[KingIdiot]

The only way for ART files to work,is the sample/file names have to be the same. Even modified samples with the same name can cause problems

[Gulliver]

J. Whaley,

There\'s always the option of taking your converted akai samples and re-editing the giga files to add such things as velocity splits, key triggers, etc... I\'m not a 100% sure if the recorded base samples for AO Akai/Upgarde are the same as AO Gigasampler but Advanced Orchestra is not a very sophisticated library with a lot of multisamples so it shouldn\'t be too much work.

I agree something smells funny about charging 50% of the price for an upgrade that might essentially be just a technical conversion rather than a true upgrade.

[J. Whaley]

Well yes, I\'ve already done a bunch of editing, but everytime I start editing I just think \"what\'s the point? someone else has already done all this, why should I have to do it?\" And then I get all upset with Best Sevice again.... needless to say, I DO NOT think they offer the best service, or anywhere close. But that\'s my opinion. I appreciate people like Gary Garritan and Scarbee who care enough about their people being happy that they actually imrpove the products and send you an update! That\'s service! (I think their samples are better too).

[dougrogers]

Originally posted by J. Whaley:
Well yes, I\'ve already done a bunch of editing, but everytime I start editing I just think \"what\'s the point? someone else has already done all this, why should I have to do it?\" And then I get all upset with Best Sevice again.... needless to say, I DO NOT think they offer the best service, or anywhere close. But that\'s my opinion. I appreciate people like Gary Garritan and Scarbee who care enough about their people being happy that they actually imrpove the products and send you an update! That\'s service! (I think their samples are better too).<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Best Service have contacted us and will substantially lower the upgrade fee. Please contact us at 1-800-833-8339 or 1-310-271-6969 for details.

With regards to your second comment, I think it\'s unfair to compare AO to GOS. You are comparing a product that was made 10 years ago with a product that was made 1 year ago. Sampling technology has changed significantly in the meantime. We could not have produced our upcoming EW/QL Symphonic Orchestra 10 years ago!

Best Service have listened to your arguments, and done the right thing in response. I think we all owe them some respect for that.

Doug Rogers
EASTWEST