ka

[Realprosounds]

[Realprosounds]

Hi,

have anyone test this piano ?

[Lance_M]

It\'s still very early. Many people (the U.S. residents, specifically) have been asleep since it was put up, and will now be at work for a few hours. Give us time to download and play around with it! images/icons/smile.gif

[MikeGraybill]

Hi, tryin to DL it now, but it just stops after about 20-45secs or so, so I\'m only getting 5MBish of the 44. Any ideas?

[MikeGraybill]

Correction, it doesn\'t just stop, it\'s telling me \"download complete,\" but the final file is only 3MBs sometimes, other times 5-6.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Olivier and guys,

I hate to be a party pooper, but we are having a knock-down and drag-out discussion on trying to stave off copy protection schemes.

Unfortunately, if you\'ll go to the Kawai website, you\'ll see that this is not an acoustic piano sample, but a sample taken from a standalone PCM-based sampling instrument.

Therefore this instrument is unfortunately a copyright infringement.

Olivier, you probably meant very well, but you\'d be doing the right thing to eliminate it from your website immediately...and anyone who has downloaded it thinking it was an acoustic piano sample should delete it from their systems.

Guys, this is what it\'s all about, right here. Do the right thing, please.

[Austin]

Same here. I\'m getting about 1.5 - 2 MB before it says \"Complete\".

[KingIdiot]

yah....

thats the right thing....

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Realprosounds:

i have paid $2500 usd and i\'ve the right to play my piano and record it, sample it. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes it does. But NOT to give that sample to other people. That is where you cross the line from fair use.

Surely you cannot imagine that you are doing Kawai any favors. And at any rate, even if you are intending to pursue permission, you should get that sample off your website right now.

Great. Just as I\'m trying to make the point that the user base can be trusted, someone pulls a stunt like this.

[midphase]

Oh come on Bruce, ease up on the guy....it\'s not like he was intentionally trying to distribute copyrighted sounds. Oliver obviously doesn\'t know the extent of the law concerning this type of usage....as a matter of fact I would go as far as saying that it\'s pretty unclear for everyone.

For all you know, he spoke to the Kawai rep who sold him the instrument, and was given permission to distribute the sounds (even though the rep probably didn\'t have the authority).

Give the guy a break and allow him to do the right thing without making him feel like an hole.

Besides....I don\'t think anyone has been able to download the files anyway!

[Tokyo Joe]

However he is setting himself up as a sample producer, to the extent of calling himself \"realPROsounds\". Anyone can register a domain name, and call themselves PRO. It\'s when you infringe copyright and sample out of tune pianos that you come a little unstuck.


Originally posted by midphase:
Oliver obviously doesn\'t know the extent of the law concerning this type of usage....<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I don\'t know what would prompt me to ease up. I\'ve spent thousands of words basically asking the developers to take a leap of faith that as a community we can work together to stop this crap without resorting to a lockdown, then here comes Olivier from outer-space posting this!!

If I wanted to be hard on him, I\'d call Kawai up and bust his cohones. As it is, I\'m trying to get him to take this thing down before he turns a lot of folks here into pirates.

[Michiel Post]

Olivier,
Since The Grand IS a Kawai sample, would you be so kind to sample the Grand and put it online as a free download so it makes your criminal behaviour easier for Steinberg AND Kawai to be spotted and procecuted? Maybe we can get rid of you this way.

Can someone close this topic PLEASE!!!

Kindly,

Michiel Post

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I was thinking he could sample all of your pianos, too, Michiel. After all, it would allow users to download them and try them, and then they could buy them from you if they liked using them. images/icons/tongue.gif

[Michiel Post]

He could ask Kawai or my company as sponsors for his website in that case.
I\'m shure Kawai will be very happy to have their Superior Piano Sound out there for free...so no-one has to buy their 9500\'s any longer to have that sound.

CLOSE THIS TOPIC PLEASE

[Austin]

Good call, Bruce. I was thinking samples of an acoustic, not a rompler....
images/icons/shocked.gif

besides, I\'ve never been fond of any sounds I heard from a box with Kawai on the front and a power plug in the back (tho\' I\'ve played a few nice Kawai pianos....).... images/icons/tongue.gif

[Bruce A. Richardson]

You know I\'m kidding, right Michiel? That language barrier thing...I never know if sarcasm makes the gap.

[Realprosounds]

[Michiel Post]

Bruce,
I know you are kidding
but clearly Olivier doesn\'t have the fainest idea what copyright is.

[Realprosounds]

hi,

i\'m very despite.

Regards,

olivier

[Hasen]

Hmm something tells me you guys didn\'t quite get through to our friend here....

[Austin]

Maybe... try the site again...he took it all down.

[thesoundsmith]

Olivier - what Michiel and Bruce are trying to tell you is that it is perfectly legal (under US law, at least, I don\'t know the first thing about international copyright laws) to sample an acoustic piano. If you want to give away OR sell the result, no problem.

If you want to sample sounds from an instrument that uses recordings of other instruments, those sounds are ALREADY sampled. This technology may be called PCM, sampled or several other names depending on how the sounds were stored, but the point is, they are RECORDINGS of something.

Because these sounds are recordings, they are protected by law against being re-copied and redistributed. It doesn\'t matter if you are giving them away or selling them, just like it is illegal to give away a copy of the latest music CD of your favorite artist (besides yourself.)

YOu have an implied license to USE those sounds to make your own music and sell THAT, but NOT to sell the individual samples from the instrument.

If a synthesizer uses methods of sound production other than samples, it is legal to create your own \'patches\' on that instrument and give away or sell those. There ARE a number of sites offering synth libraries from PCM sample-based sample CDs, but their status is frankly questionable (meaning they haven\'t been sued-yet!)

Michiel is trying to protect his intellectual property, so he vigorously defends his products from theft and unauthorized redistribution, as is not only his right, but his \'fiduciary duty\' (if he doesn\'t do so, some judge could later ask, \"You knew this theft was occurring, why didn\'t you try to stop it?\")

Bruce is trying to convince sample developers that the sampling community is generally honest, responsible, and (with a few exceptions) won\'t steal their work, so establishing draconian copy protection schemes is not necessary. These copy protection methods would prevent legal, licensed users from further exploiting the value of their licensed libraries by modifying the samples for their own legitimate usage, and there is a movement RIGHT NOW toward implementing these methods.

You have stepped into the middle of this firestorm by offering, on a user/developer meeting ground (this site,) a product which clearly, by copyright law, is ILLEGAL, as it is the result of sampling (copying)a protected set of samples (the Kawai MP9000.)

You have a perfect right to make and use that sample set for your own personal use, it\'s just when you distribute it that there is a legal problem.

Whether you agree or disagree that you have the right to do this is irrelevant, just as you could not say in court, \"I didn\'t like him, so I had the right to kill him.\" Copyright law AND the developer and user communities all agree it is illegal. You leave yourself open to possible legal action from Kawai and whatever board that governs international copyright. This could be VERY expensive for you personally.

I\'ve read your other posts on these boards, and you seem to be a nice enough guy (a bit opinionated at times, but that\'s not a crime, most people worth knowing are. images/icons/grin.gif )

Please listen and understand what we\'re saying - it\'s not personal, it\'s not even an ethical or moral issue, it is a legal issue, and nobody wants to see you be harmed by the wheels of justice.

Your other project, the Schimmel, I assume is a real piano, and I think most people on this board would love to have a copy of it, if you\'re planning to give it away. That would be perfectly legal, and everyone would benefit. And if you\'re planning to sell it, again there are many on the board that would consider purchasing it.

But please, Olivier, help yourself and the Giga community by removing the Kawai from your website.

(I guess I\'m late, according to Austin. While I was writing this, he got the message. Thanks, Olivier.)
Dasher

[Bruce A. Richardson]

We\'re dealing with a significant language barrier here. Perhaps someone who is fluent in French could smooth this over?

[noenoeil]

[Franky]

LOL ! I\'m sorry i just can\'t help myself it\'s just too damn funny....

I will also try to convey our sentiments to the poor lad since i am also French (Canadian).

Bonjour Olivier, tu n\'as pas le droit selon les lois internationales de Copyright de copier les samples d\'un instrument qui ne fait que rejouer des samples (PCM) comme ton Kawai. Tu ne peux pas sampler des samples et les distribuer sur le net c\'est totalement illegal.

De plus, ce que ces gentilles personnes ont essayees de te faire comprendre c\'est que nous sommes une petite communaute aux prises avec un serieux probleme de piratage par certains de ses usagers, que toi en temps que developpeur tu debarques ici et essayes de donner des samples piratees a tous est une insulte pour toute la communaute.

En temps que developpeur, tu dois absolument connaitre ces lois et t\'y conformer, tu n\'agit pas qu\'en ton nom quand tu te presente comme etant un developpeur \"Pro\", c\'est toute l\'industrie que tu represente et quand cet exemple ci que tu fais mal paraitre.

Aussi, essayer de donner ces samples gratuits pour faire aller les gens sur ton site et publiciser ta librarie commerciale de schimmel, est totalement deplacee, tu devrais prendre le temps de lire beaucoup des messages de ce board et te famillariser avec sa facon de fonctionner.

C\'est peut etre brutal comme accueil ici Olivier, mais c\'est de ta propre faute, tu aurais du y penser 2 fois avant de donner des samples gratuitement sur lesquels tu n\'as aucun droit legal meme ci qui que ce soit t\'en ai donne le droit verbalement chez Kawai, c\'est toujours illegal.

Aussi, tu devrais prendre des cours d\'Anglais, tes messages en Anglais sont presque incomprehensibles, si tu veux faire partie de cette communautee, tu te dois de pouvoir converser fluidement avec tes interlocuteurs.

Sans rancune

Franky
Vintaudio Prod.
www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[midphase]

Ahhhh French.....it\'s so romantic!

[Franky]

Not what i just wrote ..... hehehehe images/icons/wink.gif

Franky
Vintaudio Prod.
www.vintaudio.com (\"http://www.vintaudio.com\")

[J. Whaley]

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

[Realprosounds]

[Realprosounds]

for Michael :

\"
Olivier,
Since The Grand IS a Kawai sample,\"

On Cubase Forum Peter Georges say that the Grand is not a Kawai Piano !!!!

I don\'t like \"the Grand\' --->electronic sound.

I prefer your Bosendorfer.

Regards,

Olivier

[Realprosounds]

[Realprosounds]

to Frankie :

Je ne suis pas un pirate. Et mes samples ne sont pas piratés.

Et j\'ai bien signalé la ref de ce Piano sur mon site : mp9000 . Rien à cacher !

Pour la distribution de cette banque , c\'est réglé :

www.realprosounds.com (\"http://www.realprosounds.com\")

Je leur donnerai gratuitement !!!!

Car de tout manière les Samples au format giga ne se vendent pas.

Pourtant je fais de la promotion en France pour cette technologie, et aussi pour les Pianos giga de Eastest et de Michael et de Barstdown.

Mais après ça j\'userai moins de mon energie personnelle. Quand je vois ces discours simplistes et ces reactions.

Bon mon Kawai Mp9000 n\'est plus sur le site.

Et je programme le Schimmel aujourd\'hui.

Alors stop !!!!

Sans rancune.....

Je sais pas.

A+

Olivier

[Michiel Post]

Olivier,
Je pense que tu as fait la seule choise juste par prendre les samples du Kawai de votre website.
Il n\'y a rien personellement dans notre mots; il est simplement interdit de distribuer des samples d\'un autre person ou organisation sans avoir la permission.
Bon, ce cas est ferme!
Michiel Post

[Realprosounds]

[Realprosounds]

[Realprosounds]

[Larry Negro]

Bruce and Guys - I don\'t get this

Maybe I\'m just stupid (no cracks please) but how is it a copyright infringement to do \'your own sampling\', and offer it as a freebe to users if that\'s what you waznt to do?

This is not the same as copying a commercially made sample disk and distributing it. The \"sound\' a musical instrument makes is not a legal entitiy (read copyrightable or patentable) unto itself, any more than the human voice is.

Yes, duplicating the physical instrument would be an infringement, duplicating a published sample disk of this instrument would be (because its created and protected manufactured product), not simply because it is a recorded sound of the instrument.

And don\'t forget this is a model of that Kawai, not even the one Kawai is probably intending to sample.....not even the same instrument, though I still don\'t think it has any bearing on the issue.

And lets add this to the mix......if 5 guys or a hundred play this same sampled piano it will sound 5 or a hundred different ways.....not even the identical recreation.

Might be splitting hairs but this is the way I see it

Larry

[Aaron Levitz]

Originally posted by Larry Negro:
how is it a copyright infringement to do \'your own sampling\', and offer it as a freebee

...

This is not the same as copying a commercially made sample disk and distributing it.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">If you make a digital recording of an existing sample, and then offer it as your own sample, that\'s considered cheating. It actually is the same as copying a commercially made sample disk and distributing it.

Sampling involves a certain expertise that duplicating samples does not. Which microphones do you use? How far away do you put them? Is this room okay, or should we work on the accoustics? It\'s an involved process, and the engineer\'s thumbprint is on every sample.

Duplicating those samples to produce a \"new\" instrument claims someone else\'s hard work as your own, or insults the engineer by pretending it never happened. Proper credit does not fall where it is due.

Whatever. He\'s doing right by asking for permission. Whatever your ethics, the legality is he needs to. Rights can be granted, but never assumed.


Originally posted by Larry Negro:
And lets add this to the mix......if 5 guys or a hundred play this same sampled piano it will sound 5 or a hundred different ways.....not even the identical recreation.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">-Possibly- true of live performance. But if any two people apply it to the same MIDI file, the same samples will inarguably produce the same sound.

[Larry Negro]

...............so the MP9000 is a \"digital\" piano.
Silly me. Should have looked closer. Of course this is copyright infringement. Its already someone else\'s sample.

Larry

[LittleBiscuit]

Gentlemen,

What if poor Oliver pumped the MP9000 through speakers, mic\'d the speakers, and recorded it?

Or, what if he simply converted D to A, then A back to D?

This topic starts to get sticky, and for a lot more people than Oliver.

-lb

[KingIdiot]

So, putting a CD through speakers and recording it to Mini Disc isn\'t a copy?...

hmmm

images/icons/wink.gif

Its the fact that they were recorded sounds in the first place. No mater how they are reproduced and what they were recorded with, the fact remains that the sounds were copyrighted when they were recorded.

Its the main reason we have liscences to use samples and not own them.

[Realprosounds]

hi,

i\'m agree with all people.

so, stop !!!!

i\'ve no answer from Kawai. Just that i\'m a happy owner of their Mp9000 Keyboard !!!!

I work of my new Schimmel (for free !!!)

So, stop war against me !

Regards,

Olivier

[Chadwick]

Olivier,

Relax, there is no war against you.

Everyone understands that you want to do the \'right\' thing.

It is simply that your situation has started a debate about copyright. People are now asking \'How can you copyright a sound?\'
\'What kinds of sound can\'t be copyrighted\'...

This debate is not aimed at you. It\'s just a friendly exchange of opinions.

Good luck with your Shimmel images/icons/smile.gif