Post Grandioso\Bos or Bardstown Bos for rock\pop?

[Jake Johnson]

I don\'t want to in any way diminish the new piano libraries--all the demos sound astonshingly good. At the same time, I\'m on a limited budget and need a piano that can function in a rock\\pop setting, which for me means sounding like Joni Mitchell or Carol King\'s piano.

Could the people at Post and Bardstown offer some suggestions or demos about how their clearly beautiful libraries sound when playing relatively simple, more exposed, chord-based piano? I feel more than a little foolish asking this, since most of the people on this forum seem to play either classical or film music that emerges from a broad understanding of classical music. (I think I\'m the only person on this forum who has ever mentioned Joni Mitchell\'s Blue or Carol King\'s Tapestry as having a piano sound I want to achieve.)

Should I just expect to buy some libraries, such as the great Post and Bardstown sets, for classical\\jazz, and look elsewhere for a piano that is good for \"soft rock\"? (Could there be a worse label for people who wrote \"I Wish I Had a River\" and \"I Feel the Earth Move Under My Feet?\")

What I\'m asking is guess, is if anyone has some mpgs of these libraries playing this kind of music? Anyone have some mpgs of these libraries playing this kind of music with a singer on top?

[Bardstown Audio]

Hi Jake,

Here is a comment from Pete Leoni, who is a tech writer for Mix and EQ magazines, regarding the Bardstown Audio Bosendorfer Imperial..

Bosendorfer Imperial...

\"I just got home from my weekend house gig. I loaded the piano sample up on the Giga machine I usually use for my left hand bass sound, but tonight we had a bass player. I don\'t usually post this late at night but I\'ve got to tell you guys, I\'ll be damned if I didn\'t want the gig to last another set or two, that is how jazzed I am over the way this thing sounded. I simply didn\'t want to stop playing it. That is saying a lot after 25 years or so of playing piano in a club, It is easy to get bored, but not tonight! This sample floored me, completely amazed the other guys in the group, (one of them being a real rock and roll and country grizzled veteran with many top 20 credits to his name and a hell of a fine picker).

\"It was sort of a surreal experience. The same licks that I\'ve been playing on the same songs for years took on what I can only describe as a strange sense of \'profoundness\' That has never happened before! The chordal rhythm stuff blended with the other instrument in the band and the rides simply \'jumped\' out of the mix. I\'ve never seen that happen either to this degree, other than playing a live grand. Even the club owner (and you know how they are) made unsolicited and positive comments about the sound of this piano!\"

Pete Leoni, engineer, producer, tech writer, Mix Magazine

[Alberto R.S.]

While showing great respect for the efforts at Bardstown Audio and for the results they obtained, my choice would be PMI Steinway Grandioso.

Here\'s what I wrote about this piano library:


I\'m so happy to read about a new grandioso series piano by Mr. Post.
I\'m a proud user of PMI Steinway Grandioso: I never succeded in using a sampled piano libary \"freely\" and \"happily\". What I\'m trying to say (or better: write) is that every piano library I\'ve been using for some time always started to disappoint me after a couple hours spent playing it. Bad splits, artificial notes, insufficient layers, everything translates into: unusable, unreal. These two words easily mean \"no inpiration\", no way of creating what you have in your mind.
Using PMI Steinway Grandioso, I\'ve been able to realize a project I\'ve been thinking about for at least 2 years:
\"Feelings unnoticed\", my second album, will contain solo piano improvisations: 14 tracks of PURE improvisation (hit the record button, play, hit the stop button and listen). Nothing but Grandioso Steinway by Mr. Post could have been used for such a project: that library is my personal companion of every night I spend improvising at the keyboard.
After having visited PMI at Amsterdam I realized that I not only have the chance to capture my inspiration (by having an instrument that perfectly behaves as I like when playing), but I also know a real professional sound designer/engineer as Michiel Post is.
I take the chance to greet Mr.Post again and write a big \"thanks\" for the nice chat we had at PMI.
For further informations about PMI Grandioso and my second album \"Feelings unnoticed\" featuring PMI Steinway Grandioso, I strongly suggest you to visit:
www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/grandioso.html (\"http://www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/grandioso.html\")
you fill find an in-deep review of that piano library (which I believe interesting because it\'s been made by BOTH the producing side-PMI and the customer side-MYSELF so you have more than one point of view) and some free mp3s containing a perfect dry recording of some piano pieces by me.
Again, if you are curious to know how it feels to have a sampled piano that behaves just like your mind/heart/hand want, try the Grandioso series and you will not be disappointed. No need for other piano libraries..and now everything\'s better! you can choose your piano timbre Steinway or Bosendorfer, while having the same perfect sampling methods! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">(source: http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=003103 (\"http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=003103\") )


When I first heard about the Grandioso, I just thought about how hard times were to be able to conquer the scene with a new acoustic piano library. Then I listened to the Grandioso and I thought about how hard times were for other products to be able to take the scene back once it appeared. Now that I can play the Grandioso in my studio, I perfectly know I won\'t be looking for other piano libraries. I ask no more, I already have hours and hours spent playing here and having such a fun no other piano library had given me. Although I\'m mainly a keyboards player, I keep studying and playing classical music very hard. It\'s impossible to have classical piano studies on a synthetizer, but I\'ve never heard an acoustic sampled piano playing classical music so beautifully from a sampled library. Everything is outstanding: ambience is absent from the main program leaving you free of using any kind of room/reverberation. Sustain layers and release layers are finally just what they would be, present but not intrusive or aggressive. Harmonics can be heard so beautifully and all the presets (look below) avaiable really make it possible for anyone to create any kind of preset needed. It is also possible to gather all this amazing into one setup in order to reach a never-heard before realism. Be prepared to hear this piano sound just the way you want it, to be present in a mix and so expressive in solo, to be soft, loud, compressed, distant, near, smooth, bright and so on.

Every shape of the piano has been captured and I don\'t regret using this expression also if it has been abused by every other samples manifacturer. In the past it was abused, now I believe it\'s time to use it.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">(source: http://www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/grandioso.html (\"http://www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/grandioso.html\") )

I strongly suggest you to visit my site to get further informations and samples about PMI Steinway Grandioso at:

http://www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/grandioso.html (\"http://www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/grandioso.html\")

Best luck with your choices,
Alberto

[mschiff]

Jake,

Listen to this demo of the Bardstown Bosendorfer with a midi file that I found on the net of Linus & Lucy. Pay special attention to the harmonics of the last note as it fades out. It is an incredible piano sample. I have listened to all the demos of every piano that has been posted here, and have not found one that I like better for either solo piano or using in a mix (although there ARE other incredible piano samples).

http://www.cdsol.com/cdsol/downloads/Linus&Lucy.mp3 (\"http://www.cdsol.com/cdsol/downloads/Linus&Lucy.mp3\")

-- Martin

[mschiff]

Oh yeah. Also compare the bottom end of the piano in any of the other samples to the Bardstown Bosendorfer. I think you will find it much more suitable for light rock.

-- Martin

[noenoeil]

I sure prefer the \"air\" around the PMI Bosen...

[Jake Johnson]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I should mention that I\'m not looking for a light rock sound. Carol King is more Gospel\\R&B. (I\'m thinking of Tapestry, here, by far the best album.) Not sure what I\'d call Mitchell, on Blue, at least. Maybe this is just a problem defining terms. When I think of light rock, I think of Billy Joel or Elton John after the first album.

The piano on Mitchell\'s Blue is pretty powerful and direct. (Apparently the album was recorded in her living room directly to 8 tracks by sticking mics into her piano.) Carol King can still start a small riot if left alone on stage with a loaded piano. Sorry for the rant. I\'m more of a Stones fan when it comes to rock and roll, but these ladies broke my heart when I was fifteen...

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Hi Jake,

I have both of those albums (vinyl, no less...am I giving up my age?), so if you\'ll bear with me a little while, I\'ll try to let you know which piano library is the closest match to that sound.

Bruce

[Alberto R.S.]

I can\'t help you to find the piano sound you are looking for but be aware that, whatever the sound you need, most samples libraries just sound as the piano was sort of flat, splattered in the wall between your speakers.

I agree with Noenoeil: PMI Grandioso pianos have a great \"air\" too. Take this in great care.

Good luck again,
Alberto

[Bruce A. Richardson]

OK, Jake...

Unfortuately, Tapestry is currently at large--probably misfiled, but I won\'t have time to flip through 1500+ albums to find it. If I happen to come across it, though, I\'ll give you an update. I found Blue.

Probably for the \"Blue\" sound, the Bardstown Bosendorfer is going to be closer. It\'s a close call...the Post Steinway is actually a little closer timbrally right out of the box, but the piano on Blue is definitely a player perspective image so you\'ll come closer to that by filtering the Bosie, either in the mix or by selecting one of the variations on mapping. If you want to do it \"live,\" you will need to use the filtered patches, probably the Mod Filter (#4). It is a little hard to get the exact match, because the vocals are so up front on that album that the piano recedes quite a bit.

Also, this is definitely a compressed piano sound, so you would need to compress the track after the fact to keep it from having \"stick-outs\" and getting into the vocal space too much.

One cannot underestimate the impact of the mix upon instrumental imaging and timbre. In this case, you have a very unnatural balance...Joni\'s rather soft and intimate voice mixed WAY up front juxtaposed with some pretty aggressive two-fisted piano which is mixed significantly \"back\" yet is obviously very close mic\'ed. This sound will never just \"come out of the box.\"

[Jake Johnson]

Thanks again, Bruce. Can I ask you more details? I\'m at www.GreggJohnson@1stconnect.com. (\"http://www.GreggJohnson@1stconnect.com.\") I\'d like to ask more questions from anyone who knows Blue.

[Alberto R.S.]

My PMI Bosendorfer 290 Grandioso page is ready on my site...

still under construction but already containing one sample mp3.

www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/bosendorfer.html (\"http://www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/bosendorfer.html\")

Defenately worth to look, listen and visit again when complete images/icons/smile.gif

Enjoy,
Alberto

[noenoeil]

Studio Wizzard
I\'d like to read your complete test, how you compared the bosies, what tools you used and all... images/icons/wink.gif
(what an input anyway) images/icons/grin.gif

Both pianos are sampled with equal art, but to my ears, the PMI sounds lighter, more space around, the natural imperfections that gives the Bosendorfer\'s typical color are all here... That\'ll be my choice.

[Jake Johnson]

Bruce:

My inexperience with recordings that aren\'t overdubbed is showing, so I\'m confused. (Not that I can claim to have experience with overdubbing either.) Are you saying that the album was overdubbed?

Somehow, when I listen to Blue, let\'s say \"I Wish I Had a River,\" I\'m very convinced that the song was recorded \"live,\" with mics in the piano and another mic for the vocal. On the other hand, I can\'t imagine how this could be so, since the piano osund would bleed into the vocals and the vocals bleed into the piano track. I guess my question applies to any music that is just piano and vocal: You record just the piano and then overdub the vocal? From a technical perspective this seems obvious, but when I listen to \"I Wish I Had a River\" the strength of the song (I don\'t want to use word like \"sincerity\" on this forum)and the interaction of the vocal and the piano makes me think both were recorded at the same time.

I guess what I\'m admitting is my ignorance about what is probably a fairly simple thing: how do record a piano and vocal together? (Wouldn\'t compressing the piano mean compressing the vocal, too, since separating the tracks is impossible because all the mics will pick up both the piano and vocal.)

I suspect the situation is more simple: mics are on the piano and the vocal, and you only compress the piano track, letting the vocal track alone because the bleed from the piano isn\'t strong enough to be heard? But at the same time, a part of me says this doesn\'t make sense: with mics and the sound sources so close together, wouldn\'t the bleed on both tracks have been huge? So it was overdubbed?

It seems as though a sample library would simplify the situation, since the piano and vocal tracks can be kept separate, but at the same time, I still wonder how it was done when this wasn\'t possible, and the sound was still good.

(Could you suggest any books or articles about recording just piano and vocal together?)

The true idiot, here.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Jake Johnson:
Bruce:

My inexperience with recordings that aren\'t overdubbed is showing, so I\'m confused. (Not that I can claim to have experience with overdubbing either.) Are you saying that the album was overdubbed?

Somehow, when I listen to Blue, let\'s say \"I Wish I Had a River,\" I\'m very convinced that the song was recorded \"live,\" with mics in the piano and another mic for the vocal. On the other hand, I can\'t imagine how this could be so, since the piano osund would bleed into the vocals and the vocals bleed into the piano track. I guess my question applies to any music that is just piano and vocal: You record just the piano and then overdub the vocal? From a technical perspective this seems obvious, but when I listen to \"I Wish I Had a River\" the strength of the song (I don\'t want to use word like \"sincerity\" on this forum)and the interaction of the vocal and the piano makes me think both were recorded at the same time.

I guess what I\'m admitting is my ignorance about what is probably a fairly simple thing: how do record a piano and vocal together? (Wouldn\'t compressing the piano mean compressing the vocal, too, since separating the tracks is impossible because all the mics will pick up both the piano and vocal.)

I suspect the situation is more simple: mics are on the piano and the vocal, and you only compress the piano track, letting the vocal track alone because the bleed from the piano isn\'t strong enough to be heard? But at the same time, a part of me says this doesn\'t make sense: with mics and the sound sources so close together, wouldn\'t the bleed on both tracks have been huge? So it was overdubbed?

It seems as though a sample library would simplify the situation, since the piano and vocal tracks can be kept separate, but at the same time, I still wonder how it was done when this wasn\'t possible, and the sound was still good.

(Could you suggest any books or articles about recording just piano and vocal together?)

The true idiot, here.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Jake,

Well, there\'s a lot to learn about engineering when you start producing your own stuff. That certainly doesn\'t make you an idiot.

The credits aren\'t very detailed on Blue. It was recorded at A & M Studios, according to the credits. Very well appointed studio, Herb Alpert\'s $$$$.

If that\'s Joni doing both the singing and playing, the mics are probably all cardiod, and all close. Additionally, there\'s probably some baffling, and maybe even a \"piano box\" being used. You can get very good isolation in this way, certainly enough for a vocal/piano track. Or it could be Joni singing and someone else playing, with the piano in a room and Joni in a booth. Or, Joni could have sung a scratch vocal while playing, and then overdubbed the final.

And yes, it\'s possible to compress the tracks separately even if they\'re performed together. In fact, the vocal is probably compressed as well, just differently than the piano. And clearly the piano is mixed at a level below what would be a \"natural\" balance, since Joni\'s singing is rather intimate--yet it\'s VERY up front, and the piano\'s being played pretty firmly, but it\'s definitely in the background.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

And I guess I would add that it is VERY difficult to tell by guessing just what went on in a session. I have worked with guys who could lay down a guitar track bare, then come back and sing the vocal and you\'d swear on your granny\'s grave that it all went down at once.

I did a couple of album projects with Chuck Rainey, and we had Earl Harvin in on the last one to play drums on three or four tunes. At the time, we had nothing but a scratch bass track, and Earl is SO slamming in the studio that he knocked out killer drum parts around those bass parts (granted you can do a lot worse than a Chuck Rainey part for a scratch) and when the tunes were complete you\'d never know we tracked it one guy at a time from the bass up.

Really good studio musicians can pull off some remarkable stuff.

[Studio Wizzard]

Originally posted by noenoeil:
I sure prefer the \"air\" around the PMI Bosen...<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I have listened very critically to the demos of the Bardstown and Grandioso Bosendorfers, and the Bardstown Bosendorfer definitely sounds much better.

[pmuse]

Bruce,

Right on man, Earl is the BOMB!!

Kevin

[Alberto R.S.]

Originally posted by noenoeil:
Both pianos are sampled with equal art, but to my ears, the PMI sounds lighter, more space around, the natural imperfections that gives the Bosendorfer\'s typical color are all here... That\'ll be my choice.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">True: I\'ve spent the last two days improvising with PMI Grandioso Bosendorfer: awesome. Just as Noenoeil said, the instrument\'s imperfections are all there. In addition, Mr. Post managed to solve a big problem: the Imperial has one of the most impressive dynamics range ever, making it very difficult to sample. I\'ve been impressed by the incredible instrument\'s dynamics, not only when playing ppp or sf, but also in the mid velocities. There\'s are whole world of expressions just between p and mf or between mf and ff. That\'s great. In addition, the ambient (the \"air\") has been accurately recorded along with releases and resonances (which are challenging tasks too, because of the Imperial huge sound board and its 97 keys).

After having played it for some time, I would like everyone to consider that there is something you cannot fully understand by listening to the mp3 demos: it\'s control. You can actually control release times, dynamics and ambient in a very impressive and effective way, allowing you to get the piano to fit your needs without becoming unreal.

My personal choice, once again: I would have no doubts in using PMI Grandioso Bosendorfer. Every library reveals great efforts and astonishing results for sure, but superior quality also speaks for itself: this library is a true joy for both the hand and the ear.

Visit my PMI Bosendorfer page to know more about it:

www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/bosendorfer.html (\"http://www.albertorizzoschettino.com/pmi/bosendorfer.html\")

Best regards,
Alberto

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Hi Guys,

If we were going to stick with the original question in this thread, though...

Jake\'s looking for a piano to knock off a certain and specific pop sound, and the Grandioso Bosendorfer is NOT that sound, even the closer-mic\'ed setting. The Grandioso Steinway is actually a closer timbre to what he wants, but it is a listener perspective mic plot, so the next closer timbre with the player perspective plot is the Bardstown Bosendorfer, with some filtering and compression.

I don\'t disagree with many comments being made, but they\'re really not addressing the question asked in the thread.

[Garius]

Hi Jake,

I am not really able to compare the Bardstown Audio Bosendorfer with the PMI Bose because I only have the Bardstown Audio piano samples.

I use this piano in a folk/pop setting a lot mixed with things like Martin acoustic guitars and B3\'s and other instruments typically used on the Tapestry album, The piano sounds great, I use the Mod Filter patch that is included in with the piano samples. That patch is very nice for the organic soft timbres like the ones you are looking for.

I think you would be very pleased with Bardstown Audio piano samples.

Good Luck,
Garius Hill
Producer/Pianist
Manhattan

[JohnGrant]

I\'m going to stray off topic, just to say that I\'ve listened to Alberto\'s Bosie material and the sample is phenomenal, at least he makes it sound phenomenal. This is the first time I\'ve heard a sample \"dry\" that I actually prefer to the \"wet\" alternative. I wonder if my Sblive Audigy card could reproduce as clear a sound? Recorded to disk probably yes. But live? I\'m not sure.

Also, it\'s the first time I\'ve heard a Bos sample that I prefer to the Steinway alternative. There\'s definitely almost a kind of headroom in the sound that I haven\'t heard in any other piano sample, certainly not in my beloved Steinway B (EastWest).

John
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

[Alberto R.S.]

Thanks John for the great comment you wrote about my music! It\'s a pleasure to know that you enjoyed listening to it!

Musically,
Alberto

[Lougheed]

Alberto,

You should check out John\'s wonderful performances of Bach. Amazing stuff!

(Sometimes we seem to get so caught up in discussing samples, that we forget about the music).

Lawrence

[Lougheed]

I just returned to Alberto\'s site to listen again to his PMI Grandioso Bosendorfer demo, and discovered that he has added two more demo tracks. Worth a listen. This is one amazing piano. It seems to be very balanced and natural.

Lawrence

[Michiel Post]

Hi Lawrence&John,
Thanks for all your kind compliments.

Special thanks to Alberto who made wonderful music with the new Grandioso library. It is a real joy to listen to your pieces. It shows some of the best \"breathing\" piano pieces I\'ve heard lately. Thanks again!

Michiel Post

[Alberto R.S.]

Once again, it\'s impossible for me not to write a big thanks for your comments!

I\'m pleased to know that my music (which in this case is, I want to underline it again, FULLY improvised) is enjoyed by so many great musicians like you.

In addition, I cannot hide to be really happy in reading what Mr. Post wrote about those Grandioso Bosendorfer mp3 demos: it\'s pure happiness for me to be able to give some good inspired music back to the man who created the library. This makes me more and more proud about supporting PMI productions in the right way: not with business calculations and policies, but with a simple trust in what they do and how they work. I will keep up giving my best to create good music and share it with you.

Lawrence said that we sometimes forget about the music when discussing samples so deeply and that\'s partly true: at least, there\'s the RISK of doing so, but I think we don\'t have to worry so much: I know for sure (and these posts are demonstrating it) that we keep music in high consideration and we keep working and playing by the very heart. Thanks again for the good words and for the good music you make too! (both Lawrence and John, I had great times listening to your productions!).

Musically,
Alberto

[sporter]

I\'ll chime in as I just got the Bardstown Bosendorfer Friday. I\'ve been playing around with it all weekend, and it\'s very impressive.

In the context of the original question about a pop/rock piano, I think this sample would be ideal. So many sampled pianos get \"lost\" in the mix, especially in rock music. Many rock players prefer Roland pianos which have a bite that cuts through. But to me, the Rolands are less accurate in terms of real piano sounds.

The beauty of the Bosendorfer is that you get the best of both. It really does sound like the $180,000 piano from which the samples were taken, yet the lovely tone sublimity does not get buried when mixed with heavy snares and guitars.

Previously, I used Kurzweil samples which I considered the best. But the Bosendorfer sets much better in the mix, and I can reduce the gain and still get a perfect piano sound. It has the ability to be \"there\", even at low levels.

There are several articulations included in the set, but the bright ones are the ones I find most useful. With 34 articulations included on the CD, this is an extremely versatile set of sounds!

Very nice people at Bardstown...quick shipping. And count me in with the folks who say this is the most playable and best sounding samples piano in the world.

[JohnGrant]

This isn\'t a mutual admiration society, I know, but I\'ve listened to Lawrence\'s CD and he\'s got the best Steinway B (Eastwest)sound out there. The sample needs tweeking and just the right kind of verb, and he\'s done it.

But now we have this PMI Bos which completely changes things. I thought the PMI Steinway had eclipsed the EW Steinway B. But this amazing Bos sample is the first sampled piano I\'ve EVER heard that creates \"air\" or \"headroom\" around the music with NO reverb (Bruce can correct me on the terminology). That\'s a breakthrough.

SO, Michiel, when will it be available???

John

[Michiel Post]

we\'ll have it available in just a few weeks...

[Lougheed]

John,

Please send me your new e-mail address. I just tried replying to your e-mail, but it bounced. I don\'t think I\'ve got the proper address for you.

Thanks,

Lawrence

[Bardstown Audio]

Originally posted by sporter:
I\'ll chime in as I just got the Bardstown Bosendorfer Friday. I\'ve been playing around with it all weekend, and it\'s very impressive.

It really does sound like the $180,000 piano from which the samples were taken, yet the lovely tone sublimity does not get buried when mixed with heavy snares and guitars.

Very nice people at Bardstown...quick shipping. And count me in with the folks who say this is the most playable and best sounding samples piano in the world.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Sporter,

I very much appreciate your compliments!

Many thanks,
Kip