NS Censorship

[Nick Phoenix]

I am being censored. My posts are being deleted. If you read this before it disappears, please continue the discussion.

[Ed]

Discuss Discuss Discuss

[Ewen]

What\'s going on here???

Ewen

[Nick Phoenix]

What\'s happening is that Papa Chalk didn\'t like my response to his rude post. So he deleted it.

[Rooftop]

Bleh, I\'m not even gonna try anymore. This whole situation is ridiculous.

Waiting for a true Giga fan site...

[PaPa Chalk]

Nick stop lying what posts were deleted? images/icons/rolleyes.gif I have no knowledge of this. Do a refresh. Your attempts to cause dissention on this board are getting ridiculous. If you can tell me where the posts were made I can check into it. Maybe it\'s a server problem. Your making it seem like you hope we ban you. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ursatz]

I don\'t have any insights here, so please feel free to skip this post.

I just wanted to say that back when I was deciding to buy GigaSampler, this forum was a big factor in the decision. I\'d read lots of stuff on other forums about how crashy GS was and how it was hard to figure out how to do things, but the cooperative spirit on this forum made me unafraid of these issues. And, in fact, this forum has been invaluable to me in the past couple of years, not only for the help I\'ve received on the few technical problems I\'ve had, but also for the library announcements and discussions, and the general sampling/mixing know-how (from Bruce and others) that we\'re all privileged to read.

I don\'t know what prompted this change in enforcement policy. My hope is that everyone involved in the controversy can hold on to that spirit of cooperation that used to be here, and that I found so encouraging when I was starting out in the Giga world.

Pax et veritas, as a wise man once said. images/icons/wink.gif

[Nick Phoenix]

Papa Chalk,
The post was made last night in the \"policy of talking about libraries on NS\" thread. It was a response to your post and was posted and appeared. This morning , it was gone. I apologise, if I accused you unfairly. It is the second post of mine to ever disappear. Who else has the power to delete posts over there? I will post it ( or something similar) again.

[Nick Phoenix]

O.K. The main point of my post that disappeared was:

Papa Chalk,
I think that the idea that I am posting things purely for financial gain and to promote my own libraries is TRULY insulting. If that is the way that people feel on this forum, I need to know about it. I offer my opinions on many libraries, both good and bad. I do this as another member of this forum who is a composer. I think I might be the only developer that openly critiques their own libraries. I have done this on numerous occasions. I would rather go out of business than to con someone into buying an inferior library of mine.
You know, dissent is a GOOD thing. It is part of a healthy democracy and part of a healthy forum. To aggressively try to shut down discussions about your forum rules is a bad thing. Why can\'t we calmly discuss this? My point of view is that this great forum suddenly changed last week. It was introduced to me as the official gigasampler website. It has always been a completely open and free place to discuss libraries. I admit I had never read the rules. But everyone was happy until last week (except Garritan). I never considered advertising on the site because I really never gave it much thought. EAST WEST deals with the business end of things. I have given everything I could to the site and it is even mentioned in the booklets of my new libraries. What you said about developers just using the site to make money was, in my case, completely rude and wrong. I would like an apology. I would like to continue this discussion calmly until it is resolved. Hey, I know I am not perfect. How about you?

[PatS]

Nick:

This seems to be an expanded version of your post that begins with the following remark: \"Ah Papa Chalk. Silly you. Am I included in this insulting accusation.\" I found this on the first page of the topic to which you referred. Regardless, may I suggest that you take this offline? I don\'t believe the moderators owe you an apology (public or private), and, frankly, your implication of Gary speaks very poorly of you, despite your talent as a composer and programmer. Let it go, for everyone\'s sake.

Pat

[Nick Phoenix]

The post is back. Maybe it was a glitch, but the missing post has returned. My apologies for the redundant posts. Apologies also, if the post was not deleted and there was simply a problem with the server.

[Z6]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
I think I might be the only developer that openly critiques their own libraries. I have done this on numerous occasions. I would rather go out of business than to con someone into buying an inferior library of mine.
You know, dissent is a GOOD thing. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">So, Nick you are telling us you\'re a great guy. That\'s good to hear. I have read you criticize your own libraries many times. I own one of your libraries; for me it is perfect, nothing whatever to criticize, and I have said so on many occasions.

But let\'s examine your statement about your own good graces towards customers. You\'ve said a few times you\'d rather go out of business than \'con\' someone into buying an inferior library. But Nick, copy protection is part of a library and you didn\'t tell anyone about it \'openly\'. We heard about it from someone who\'d bought it.

So, before you go into self-enforced liquidation, does this mean you\'ll provide full refunds to any dissatisfied customers (regardless of their personal reasons)? Or will you remain the final arbiter of what represents being \'conned\'? I\'m sure you will, just as Papa reserves the right to \'ban\' whatever or whomever he pleases; and I don\'t think he does that lightly at all.

I don\'t think many developers criticize their own libraries, but what good does that do the customer who purchased yours?

Rather than criticize some of your more inferior work (presumably developed and sold while you were still \'learning\'), how about updating them? How about a full refund? You\'ve decided that criticizing your own work \'honestly\', somehow constitutes something that we should admire.

Really, it\'s no big deal. You might try to get over your yourself on this point and realize that it doesn\'t do squat for anyone who paid money to you. In fact, it might even annoy them more than a little to read your \'confessions\' (it might make you feel better about yourself, but that is all it does).

Also, you say \'con\' someone? What about someone who goes out tomorrow and buys one of your \'inferior\' libraries; unaware that it\'s creator has \'dumped\' it? Will you pack it in tomorrow if that happens? Have you offered money back to any customers daft enough to buy the libraries that you yourself criticize? Or by criticism do you mean \'just the little things\'? Maybe an out of tune note here, a bit of noise there; nothing that would actually require you to prove your image of yourself where it might cost you money?

I remember you saying you didn\'t mind people copying your libraries if they couldn\'t afford it. Of course, then you were talking about some image in your head of poor wee third-worlders who you might help. Saying such a thing is great. You get to feel good about yourself without having to actually do anything; the library will or will not be copied by third-worlders and first-worlders alike (if it\'s good) anyway.

BUT, when I put this to you after the recent (free?) announcement of your upcoming library, there was no reply. For anyone who missed it; I wanted to know if I\'m allowed to copy Nick\'s library \'cause I can\'t afford it. Yes, I know, I\'m not, am I?

But why not? Why can\'t the people who can\'t afford the gargantuan (mooted) asking price not just copy it, as you yourself seemed to want people without the means to do? Why can\'t we take you at your word on this? How about we promise to never \'publish anything using your library\'? Would that do for the poor people among us who can\'t afford $5,000 for this and $10,000 for that?

As for this whole series of threads. It was instigated by a little man who spent most of his threads (before he \'passed on\' - although he has been sighted at the gates of Graceland dressed as Elvis) fishing for compliments on his recordings of percussion hits. Now he wants to fragment and compartmentalize this forum. (And since he can\'t defend himself here and I\'m taking unfair advantage I\'ll do it for him: \"Z6 you are nothing. You are worthless. You are less than a worm. You are talentless. I have a mighty talent. I have degrees aplenty. What have you ever done? Nothing..Nothing, I tell you!\")

Franky talked about the \'letter of the law\' in one of his posts. I don\'t believe that Papa is turning this place into some kind of virtual tyranny. Smaller developers will almost certainly be allowed to talk about their libraries (there are always ways). It seems that Papa\'s beef is with developers producing very high-end work and getting completely free advertising on probably the world\'s most accurately targeted market.

Nick? Nick? Are you still there? Do you think this could mean you? Or perhaps someone like you, who announced a huge (unpublished) library around the same time Dan Dean announced (published) his - but Dan\'s was just another brilliant (published) library; not ground-breaking (and unpublished) like the way you say yours is and the way everyone who commented on it apparently believes \'sound unheard\' (and unpublished)?

You know, right now, someone\'s probably explaining to donnie (with flashcards) what\'s happening here, and he\'s hap, hap, happee. He\'s avenging his \'unjust\' treatment from beyond the grave. Nasty Papa, the great capitalist with a fat cigar, extracting every last cent from the poor developers. Poor Nick, just trying to make a crust, helping all the unfortunates in this world and as honest as the day is long. Keep up the good fight Nick. And Donnie: \"I\'ll make them pay. By god I\'ll have my day... When I release my new \"Percussion from the Poshest Part of London\", and my new \"Unbelievably High-Class String library Not from Memphis. Then they\'ll see\"

Fortunately, this will all blow over. Nick will buy advertising if he wants any chance of anyone buying his libraries. Maarten will talk about his stuff and not get banned. Franky will talk about his stuff and not get banned. Franz will continue to post one liners offering everything and the kitchen sink.

But please Nick, let us know when we get to copy your new library, it sounds like it might be worth all those CDs and the huge amount of time it will take to copy. images/icons/wink.gif

[Nick Phoenix]

Z6,
What can I say to that distortion of reality that you just puked onto the net?

- You\'re probably right. Thank you for showing me the light. I am now moving to a temple where I can live in total enlightenment. Goodbye.

[Kenn159]

Z6 I think you seek out situations to trash people , must make your day .
Maybe you should run around the block a few times , better way to relieve tension.

Just want to say sample developers are partly reponsible for pushing the state of the art of this technology forward.
Without good libraries we would all be here playing giga piano and the demo disk of sounds that comes with giga sampler and probably getting very tired of them .
Whats a sample playback unit without samples?
We need to support developers like Nick , instead of picking apart there post looking for statements that are not politically correct or express some ego.
Why don\'t I critisize what you do for a living and see if you dont get a little defensive Z6.
If they had no ego they probably would care less about there project.

As far as the subject of sample developers being able to mention a future library releases , Im sorry to see that change .
Myself and many others enjoy the fact that we can come to this site and talk directly to library deveropers for tech and library release questions ,to get a full picture on whats going on in gigaland.
I recently heard about about Daves Giga tutorial release here, I guess he won\'t be able to post his 3.0 tutorial here, or maybe the censonship just applies to certain developers?
Papa thanks for a great site but I wish you would rethink the censorship policy. images/icons/smile.gif

[Z6]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
Z6,
What can I say to that distortion of reality that you just puked onto the net?

- You\'re probably right. Thank you for showing me the light. I am now moving to a temple where I can live in total enlightenment. Goodbye.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">What part was distorted Nick? I must have imagined it then; please accept my apologies. Perhaps I dreamt that you said you didn\'t mind people who couldn\'t afford it copying your libraries? But I\'ve got big eyes and a sniffly nose and ruffled hair; don\'t I qualify for your wonderful altruistic gesture?

Hi Ken! You\'re not miffed about me always ranting on about the people who actually program Gigastudio (and have to put up with people constantly droning on about the features they missed - without the kind of \'defence\' \'offered\' to developers, I might add) are you? Because there was another Ken on another site (same number, I think) and this very thing was happening, and I posted a rant about the genius of Gigastudio? Well, never mind.

Anyway Ken, as to my \'trashing\' of developers. I am of the belief that the world is not divided in two, with developers at one end and the rest of us at the other. If I criticize Nick, you assume I criticize all developers? That is quite a leap, is it not? Thank you for explaining me; it wouldn\'t do to have people believing that when I talk to Nick, I\'m only talking to Nick. Thank goodness you\'re here to put everyone straight.

Have a listen to this: \"But everyone was happy until last week (except Garritan). I never considered advertising on the site because I really never gave it much thought. EAST WEST deals with the business end of things.\"

Who was doing the trashing here? Everyone was happy except Garritan? \"I never considered advertising...\" Well, blow me down with Fevah, if I didn\'t just read that with my own eyes I would never have believed it. I suppose great artists get so hung up in their art that they have to let \'other people\' worry about such things. How convenient.

But developing for a few years and posting here on a regular basis for a few years; it is quite understandable that he hadn\'t noticed that other developers were actually paying for his \'RIGHT to speak\' ?

You say :\"Just want to say sample developers are partly reponsible for pushing the state of the art of this technology forward\".

I don\'t disagree (although some programmers and designers might believe that the statement puts at least the horse\'s arse before the cart, if not the horse itself).

I\'ve got an idea for squeezing ten thousand people onto a plane, do you think I\'ll win the nobel prize if someone builds it? After that, I might even stretch my own genius by coming up with an idea for increasing the number to twenty thousand. Whadya think? Not bad eh, for an old trash mouth?

You say: \"We need to support developers like Nick , instead of picking apart there post looking for statements that are not politically correct or express some ego.\"

To the first part, I answer: Why? Why do we need to support Nick? What has he done to deserve support? I bought one of his libraries; he got some profit. Why do I have to go beyond that?

To the second part. No, you\'ve somehow misinterpreted the situation. I didn\'t find anything at all politically incorrect in his statements. The opposite in fact. There has been so much political correctness, I thought I\'d merely suggest some actual action. A backing-up, if you will. Words, as you can see right now, are more than ten a penny.

\"Why don\'t I critisize what you do for a living and see if you dont get a little defensive Z6.\"

Criticize away. Be my guest. And understand while you\'re doing so (apart from the fact that I couldn\'t give a monkey\'s right gonad) that I didn\'t criticize what Nick did for a living. I merely held up some of his statements for him to look at. Talk is cheap. I\'m a nice guy. No, I\'m a wonderful guy. I don\'t mind if \'poor\' people steal from me because I feel sorry for poor people. But I don\'t like rich people one bit (even if I am one?) rich people are nasty, nasty, nasty. Poor people are best. I sleep very well at night knowing that I told people today that I cared about them.

Do you like me now Ken? Do I pass the muster?

Censorship! You accuse Papa of censorship? Are you serious? I\'ve lived in countries where they REALLY have censorship. I\'ve worked on newspapers in countries where they don\'t but I\'ve still been censored. You don\'t think accusing Papa of censorship is rude in any way at all? I must be really missing something here.

You see, I happen to KNOW that Gary Garritan is a sterling human being (and I am absolutely not suggesting anything regarding Nick\'s character - merely commenting on his own statements. I\'m sure he is a swell guy). Gary Garritan doesn\'t \'criticize\' his libraries of course, he provides free updates to fix them and improve them. But then, maybe he\'s not \'leaving business matters\' to someone else?

I think you should rethink YOUR statement on Papa\'s \'censorship policy\'.

\'Trashing developers\' indeed. Try reading more carefully.

[Munsie]

Z6. . . . .. You Rock!

[]mosaic]

As a once-off courtesy to the consumer, perhaps the moderators should allow all the developers ranting here to list their product names so we (the hordes of lurking, cash bearing users) know what not to buy.
Rather ironic what is happening here I think images/icons/wink.gif

[David Abraham]

Originally posted by Nick Phoenix:
The post is back. Maybe it was a glitch, but the missing post has returned. My apologies for the redundant posts. Apologies also, if the post was not deleted and there was simply a problem with the server.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I just wish you\'d privately ask questions first before slandering these people in public.

-david abraham