PMI GRANDIOSO BOSENDORFER

[Michiel Post]

http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/basishtml/piano%20comparison.html (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com/basishtml/piano%20comparison.html\")

The new library is in pre-release stage. I have to keep the specs and features secret until we release it.
We are currently adding features, waiting for beta reports and hope to hear from you guys what you think.

We did a little comparison with other pianos using the Purgatory demo and a piece of Liszt.
There are some dead links in the webpage, but you can find the Liszt demos here:
http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoL/ (\"http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoL/\")
and the Purgatory demos here:
http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoB/ (\"http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoB/\")

have fun!

Michiel Post

www.postmusicalinstruments.com (\"http://www.postmusicalinstruments.com\")

[Rob Elliott]

Post,

I have your Steinway and couldn\'t be more pleased. This looks to fill a \'brighter\' usuage well. I could not open the Bardstown Bosen though to compare.

All those who have Kips Bosen - let us know how you think these pianos compare.

[mschiff]

Rob,

You can get the Bardstown Bosendorfer sample at their website (www.bardstownaudio.com).

-- Martin

[mschiff]

Michiel,

This is an awesome sounding piano, but the low end seems kind of weak, like you used a low cut filter. Is that just because it is a pre-release version?

-- Martin

[Bardstown Audio]

Since Michiel Post included the Bardstown Audio Bosendorfer Imperial Model 290 in his list of Purgatory Creek piano shoot out demos and his link did not seem to connect, I have gladly provided the link below.

This demo of the Bardstown Audio \"Bosendorfer Imperial\" Model 290 includes four velocity layers of pedal up, four velocity layers of pedal down, and release samples. A little bit of reverb was used in the processing of this demo.

http://www.bardstownaudio.com/mp3/shoot.mp3 (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com/mp3/shoot.mp3\")

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Raven]

Excellent both of them.!!!

Since we are on this topic, it seems like there are too many Bosendorfer, Steinway samples to choose from. This is great to see so many varieties, yet the most favorite Yamaha Grand Pianos are in need!!!!. Kip please we all have adressed this, just look back on the discussions.

We are in need of Yamaha Grand Pianos and I know Kip you will have Baldwin coming, but Yamaha is the favorite in Studios, for New Age, Rock Pop, you name it. Why not suplly us with a Yamaha sometime.? ( I will buy the Baldwin by the way)

Also Nick Phoenix, recorded his new collection Orchestral, in the ambience of the hall. Well Why not sample a Piano that sounds exactly as if it was recorded in a studio. Even though this is claimed to have doe this way, we still have to tweak the piano to sound like it would in a studio.

Why not give us an out of the box solution, that sounds truly professional already like it would sound on cd. I would much rather have it sound like this and be playable than to tweak and program all the time. This is where Nick Phoenix has taken a step in the right direction on his new library.

I am but just giving you my wish list, and since so many others have a greatest wish for a Yamaha Grand Piano.

Raven

[Jake Johnson]

I\'m lost. I love but can\'t afford the Grandioso.

Is this a new instrument? Were the demos created with Mac-specific software?

[pantonality]

I want them all, but if I can\'t have them all I\'ll take Michiel\'s new one. When will it be available?

Steve

[Aqua Tarkus]

I\'ve only just heard this on headphones, but my initial impression is that this could well be THE ONE. I\'ll have to give it a try on my Mackie 824s but as far as I can tell, this one has the brightness that I think was lacking from the Steinway. Can\'t wait!!!

[Dr. Hook]

To those of you who are thinking of buying the Post Bosendorfer when released........

If it\'s anything like the Grandioso Steinway, don\'t bother. I\'ve played the Grandioso Steinway and it is completely dead, I wouldn\'t jeopardize my credibility by using it on any of my recordings. Just compare the 2 Bosendorfers\' shootout MP3s and it\'s obvious that this upcoming Grandioso Bosendorfer will be just as unusable as the Grandioso Steinway. Anyone who has ears can easily tell even on a lousy MP3 that the Bardstown Audio Bos. kicks *** (AKA Post Bosendorfer).\"

[Raven]

I second that

I am not that impressed with the Grandioso library. The demos sound different than the actual library. And I guess I just do not like the tone. I also found it hard to make it sound warm. To me the feel is missing, even though Gigapiano is badly tuned on the higher registers, I \"feel\" the piano when playing it. Now this by no means that Grandioso is not a good library, it is very well programmed, but to me the sounds is so clean that the feel and expression is dead.....

This is but my point of view, and I am still looking for the Ultimate Yamaha Grand Piano to be sampled, but no one is attempting to do this. Why???

This is but my experience with the Grandioso, but hey some people might like that total clean crisp sound. I want that but warmth too.

[ChrisAxia]

To Raven & Dr Hook,

You think the Steinway D lacks expression and sounds dead? Well, the samples are recorded very dry so you can choose your reverb. When Michiel sent me this piano, I couldn\'t believe how expressive it was, mainly due to so many layers. It was the first time I really enjoyed playing a piano sample.

I recently mocked up a cue I wrote for a Hollywood movie, and played the real and \'grandioso\' versions to various musicians, including 2 concert pianists, and they could not believe the piano wasn\'t real! Most listeners chose the sample as the real recording. BUT, you do need to add reverb!! YOU choose the environment you want for the piano. If you can\'t be bothered to try some different reverb settings, I fear no sample library will make you happy.

Oh, I\'ve also been playing Michiel\'s Bos as well and it sounds amazing. Very different to the Steinway as you would expect, but it plays and sounds fabulous. I haven\'t tried Kip\'s Bos so I can\'t compare the 2.

Did you guys both purchase the Steinway? If so, try the various performances because the feel/sound varies through the range, and try different reverbs. If you still don\'t like it, then I can only assume you do not like the sound of a Steinway D. Fair enough. Stick to your Yamaha. I still use the piano in my Alesis QS8 for certain pop tracks, because it works better than the Steinway in some cases but I\'m using the Steinway D on a pop ballad at the moment and it sounds absolutely beautiful.

Chris

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Dr. Hook:
I\'ve played the Grandioso Steinway and it is completely dead, I wouldn\'t jeopardize my credibility by using it on any of my recordings. Just compare the 2 Bosendorfers\' shootout MP3s and it\'s obvious that this upcoming Grandioso Bosendorfer will be just as unusable as the Grandioso Steinway.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m curious, you say you\'ve \"played\" it. Does that mean you own it?

If so, you may want to try the many combinations of mappings, which highlight many different perspectives, as Chris mentions.

Also, I really have a hard time swallowing a rating of \"unusable\" no matter what your taste. Unusable for what? I have a collection of probably 10 different sampled pianos, and the Post Grandioso D is in the top three that I find myself using over and over...all on music for which I get paid and which has to meet fairly stringent production standards. I have had editors and post engineers actually call me to comment about four different Giga-format pianos, the Trachtman C, the Malmsjo by ArtVista, the Bardstown Bos, and the Post Grandioso D. In each case, these are very astute listeners, and in each case the question asked was \"Where did you record that piano?\"

So, in my expericence as a user, I\'m confused because the results I have observed are quite the opposite. Usability has been a big success for me, in fact, I have found that particular library to be among the most usable of the entire spectrum of available instruments in a setting where I\'m cranking out something on the average of 25 full CDs of scored music a year. My contracts are pretty low-paying, high-quantity jobs, so I\'m slaving it out a minute or two at a time!!

It is valuable for people to share both bad and good impressions of libraries, but that information is most helpful to the community when it is placed in specific context, i.e., I had trouble with this product because I could not get it to ride on top of a mix without overpowering it, or, I found the product suited to use in a jazz setting, but too dark for a pop ballad. Those kinds of comments are so much more helpful than \"this rulez\" or \"this sucks,\" which really say nothing at all.

It would help me understand much more about the usability issues if you\'d elaborate a bit. Perhaps I can offer some suggestions to help you get better use from the instrument.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Raven:
I second that

The demos sound different than the actual library. And I guess I just do not like the tone. I also found it hard to make it sound warm. To me the feel is missing, even though Gigapiano is badly tuned on the higher registers, I \"feel\" the piano when playing it. Now this by no means that Grandioso is not a good library, it is very well programmed, but to me the sounds is so clean that the feel and expression is dead.....

This is but my point of view, and I am still looking for the Ultimate Yamaha Grand Piano to be sampled, but no one is attempting to do this. Why???

This is but my experience with the Grandioso, but hey some people might like that total clean crisp sound. I want that but warmth too.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">A couple of thoughts...

Have you tried running the .GSP files which set up the distant and close perspectives simultaneously? I\'m curious that you\'re not getting the same \"sound\" you hear in the demos, because I have gotten what I consider even better results in some aspects when I use and mix the piano.

Chris has good points about post processing. Even though Michiel isn\'t doing a great deal of that in his demos, achieving a mix with sampled instruments is always a challenge and requires some deft engineering. Because you cannot do your setups as you\'re tracking, often the microphone placements from library to library are not going to yield compatible results straight out of the box. It\'s just one of the many unique challenges of this production method. In a studio situation, of course, the entire art of tracking is about achieving that compatibility as you lay the groundwork, so that it\'s not necessary to be so \"corrective\" in the mix. You just won\'t get that luxury with samples, unless you are using a library that literally covers every instrument in the mix and that is designed ground-up by the same set of ears. Even then, you\'ll face per-production challenges.

I\'m a little curious about the word \"warmth\" in this context, since one of the most common comments about this particular library is that it\'s often warmer than people expect. The inter-note tuning is VERY precise, so that you\'re not getting a lot of action within a given note in terms of harmonic interplay. They\'re pretty dead-on, as opposed to some other libraries that are a little more loosely tuned, and therefore a bit more \"chorusy\" for lack of a better word. Tuning \"tightness or looseness\" is largely a matter of differing taste, both within a single note, and in the larger context of how much stretching is done and how the intervals themselves are tempered. There are SO many variants, really, that it\'s difficult to pinpoint what aspect of a piano\'s overall sound people actually are describing and responding to.

Another thing you mention, the \"feel\" factor here, is worth discussing. Your contextual description of the feeling you get when playing the GigaPiano is a definite matter of perspective. Because the GigaPiano is mic\'ed extremely close, and it results in what I\'d describe as a \"hyper-player\'s perspective,\" I would agree 100% with your observation. Playing it, especially in headphones, is really much like sitting at the bench and playing a piano. Playing the Grandioso, on the other hand, is a bit surreal, especially at first, because the sensation is really much more like listening to someone else play. I definitely had to adjust my sensibility to it as a player, because it doesn\'t \"wrap around your head\" at all. It sits several feet in front of your face. It\'s also rotated to performance perspective, rather than player-perspective, making the experience of actually playing it yet a bit more abstract.

All of the perspectives represented are useful in different production contexts, but I think it\'s helpful to identify the psychoacoustic phenomena at play here. Hopefully it\'s information that you\'ll find useful in getting value from this and all the different libraries.

[Michiel Post]

So many questions here that it\'s hard for me to answer all of them and
react to all issues involved.
First, the new library is still under development so the actual samples
have not been finalised, the sound may vary quite significantly when we
decide which versions of the samples must be included. We\'ll have it ready
and released in a month or two. I first wanted to wait until GST3 was out,
but I\'m not sure if I want to wait much longer for this.
I personally think we can include a \'brighter\' version of the same samples
as I hear some people complaining that they feel my other GRANDIOSO
library sounds a little dull, dead, muffled when used
right-out-of-the-box. When you get familiar with the library you will find
this is not the case, in fact when you start using it in a musical context
and record it (with and without other instruments or vocals) you will find
that it sounds very much like a real grand piano. But I also understand
that a lot of users are familiar with the aggressive high frequency
components so often found in most modern sound systems and expect this
from our Grandioso libraries too. For these people our sound seems dull
when playing at first. Now playing a sample is something different than
recording a sample. Recording it means you want a sound that fits the
musical picture, the sound impression that works for your music. Playing a
sample requires the sample to be responsive and give you the \'feel\' of a
grand piano.

DrHook: you say you\'ve played the Grandioso Steinway. Where was that? I
sure would like to know WHERE?
You don\'t own the library, am I right? Your impression doesn\'t tell me
anything then.
We have received so many messages form Grandioso OWNERS who tend to
disagree very strongly with you; they use Grandioso every day in a
professional setting and prefer it above any other sample.

Raven: are you saying our demos are fake? That we posted demos that sound
better that the actual library. How would we have done that? Using our
library??? Well, if your results with Grandioso aren\'t sounding exactly
like our demos when using the same midi-file, you must have screwed up
your computer set-up completely, or you must haveinferior audio hardware and
monitor speakers. Our demos can be reproduced by ANYONE who has the
library and who captures the sound using GST. Period.

About the Yamaha: frankly I haven\'t heard any Yamaha grand piano that was
good enough to be sample recorded according to our quality standards. None
of the new Yamaha models has the sound that I would call \'superior\' or
even \'sufficient\'. You must understand that making a piano library demands
several months of hard work. All that work can only be dedicated to an
instrument that you feel deserves the effort of sampling it and then
working with these samples for weeks and weeks and weeks. When I get
access to a Yamaha grand that sounds right and good enough I will not
hesitate to record it.

Michiel Post

[TEMPS]

Bravo Michiel and Bruce!

I purchased the Grandioso specifically because of what I believed would be a high level of playability (based on the other Post instruments I own) and I was in no way disappointed. Michiel clearly has an excellent ear and has put an enormous amount of work into this sampled piano. I find it to be the most playable piano in my library (my old favorite was the EW Steinway B which has a good sound but is sadly lacking in velocity layers). I find that the notes in the Post Grandioso are more crisp, that the sound varies in closer proportion to the velocity of my key strokes and that the overall sound is an excellent digital reproduction of the instrument in question. Calling this piano unplayable is simply a statement made by someone who cannot play.

[JohnGrant]

Temps\' comment is interesting. I\'m a fan of the Steinway B (East-West) but find the Grandioso the only sampled piano out there that matches it.

Of course it\'s a totally different sound than the EW Steinway, and that\'s as it should be. The EW requires major tweaking; the Grandioso, from what I can determine, sounds accurate without tweaking.

I\'m using the Grandioso DEMO as a point of comparison, mind you, I haven\'t YET purchased the product. Simply an issue of cash.

John
WTC 1 part 2:
http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/190/the_welltempered_clavier_bk_1_.html (\"http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/190/the_welltempered_clavier_bk_1_.html\")
WTC 1 part 1:
http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/244/bach_welltempered_clavier_bk_1.html (\"http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/244/bach_welltempered_clavier_bk_1.html\")

[noenoeil]

Nice demo (Grandioso Bosen) Michiel !
Can\'t wait to use it !
What about a PMI Grandioso Fazioli?

[Chazotta]

I agree that I can\'t see much point in sampling a Yamaha. I have heard some decent Yamaha pianos, but compared to the Steinway\'s and Bosen\'s, they just don\'t cut it.

My view is that there is only one other type of piano which is in the same class, in fact I personally prefer its sound. Stuart & Sons - http://www.stuartandsons.com/ (\"http://www.stuartandsons.com/\") (98 keys and 4 pedals)

I have played and heard many Steinway\'s and Bosendorfer\'s. I haven\'t played the Stuart & Sons but I have heard it and it (to me) sounds better than anything else out there.

So if you guys happen to stumble accross one of these pianos, you should sample it.

Also (Michiel) I can\'t seem to download some of the links for that Purgatory demo?

[Michiel Post]

Originally posted by Chazotta:
I agree that I can\'t see much point in sampling a Yamaha. I have heard some decent Yamaha pianos, but compared to the Steinway\'s and Bosen\'s, they just don\'t cut it.

My view is that there is only one other type of piano which is in the same class, in fact I personally prefer its sound. Stuart & Sons - http://www.stuartandsons.com/ (\"http://www.stuartandsons.com/\") (98 keys and 4 pedals)

...

Also (Michiel) I can\'t seem to download some of the links for that Purgatory demo?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Sorry about the dead links there, you can access the same demos here:
http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoB/ (\"http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoB/\")
and
http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoL/ (\"http://members.lycos.nl/postpiano/demoL/\")

I have not heard a Stuart & Sons yet, but I will investigate. I have Fazioli on my to-do list.

Michiel Post

[Lougheed]

Michiel,

Checked out the Liszt demos. The wet&dry mixed version is very impressive. Is this a preset, or can the amount (ratio) of wet to dry be controlled?

Lawrence

[Rob Elliott]

Bruce,

Nice post. You can\'t just give a \'yes\' or \'no\' can you? Seriously, I (and I am sure many others) appreciate the contributions you freely give to this forum. Thanks, bro!

Rob

[Michiel Post]

Originally posted by Lougheed:
Michiel,

Checked out the Liszt demos. The wet&dry mixed version is very impressive. Is this a preset, or can the amount (ratio) of wet to dry be controlled?

Lawrence<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Thanks Lawrence,
The \"wet&dry mixed\" sound is achieved by combining the \"dry\" and the \"wet\" versions. In GigaStudio you can mix these freely. To do so, I linked the midi-ports and loaded each instrument version to it own port on the first midi-chanel. By routing the mixer output chanels to seperate chanels you can now post-process and adjust the balance. E.g. you want the \"dry\"samples to be eq-ed. You use the NFX-Eq for that. You want the \"wet\" samples to be delay-ed severail milliseconds, you use the NFX-delay plug-in for that. The balance between dry and mixed is simply adjusted by the mixer chanels faders. This way you have precise and absolute control over all aspects of the ambience and tone of the whole enstrument. Making different settings this way can make your piaon sound very different, from intimate and close untill far away in a big concert hall. All with \"real\" samples\", no reverb processing whatsoever involved. This experience is really impressive, both from a players point of view and for a recording situation.

As the library is still under construction, I will be adding new instruments versions and one of them will be a version where the \"dry\" and \"wet\" samples are layered and the balance can be adjusted with the mod-wheel or gen. purp. control #1, which in turn can be activated by a volume control footpedal. This will not give you the extra benefit of the seperate chanels for each sound (and the additional option to process each sound differently) but it will be convenient in situatiuons where you don\'t want the piano to take up more than one GigaStudio chanel and port position.

Maybe we come up with even more solutions to offer perfect control over the ambience and room. We\'re still working on it...

Michiel Post

[Lougheed]

Michiel,

Have you also used the same technique with the Grandioso Steinway (called ambient or distant, I believe)?

Lawrence

[Michiel Post]

Lawrence,
This is slightly different. The Bosendorfer \"wet\" version is very playable in itself. The Steinway distant samples are ONLY the ambience and can\'t be used without the main samples.
When recording we approached the Bosendorfer with kind of the same microphone technique as with the Steinway, but as the soundstage was largher and very much more reflecting we found that the room was really big and audible in the recording. So i decided the re-record the whole set with the same instrument in a multi-mic set-up. This way we have both the close mic and the distant mic samples.
As for the Steinway, there is no option to use the ambient signal only. That would not be usefull.
Michiel Post

[Lougheed]

This way we have both the close mic and the distant mic samples.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Very cool. This is going to make this piano extremely versatile. Thanks.

Lawrence