PMI Grandioso Steinway B

[dukedroese]

Hi,

I just bought the PMI Grandioso Steinway B, because after listening to the mp3 files and after reading most of the discussions in this forum I was convinced that it must be THE sample library. Now, that I own it, I\'m a little bit disappointed, because compared to the EastWest Steinway B I had before, it sounds kind of dull to me - no ambience, if you know what I mean. So, my question is, does anyone has the same impression or am I just doing something wrong? As to date, I like the EW library better, but I also hear a big difference between the PMI mp3 files and the actual samples. I will appreciate any help very much.
Thanks a lot,

Duke

[TEMPS]

The PMI Steinway is a Steinway D, not a Steinway B. I used to play Steinway B\'s in practice rooms. In my opinion they have a warmer sound which is sometimes preferable, but are not capable of projecting the power or the range that a Steinway D can. I have both of these libraries and I must say I don\'t think the EW Steinway B can touch Michiel Post\'s Instrument. The number of velocity layers makes the instrument so much more playable. I wonder, have you added the updates from his web page? It is certainly possible that you prefer the sound of the Steinway B over the Steinway D, but in terms of sampling quality I find the PMI to be leaps and bounds above the EW. Just my opinion.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by dukedroese:
Hi,

I just bought the PMI Grandioso Steinway B, because after listening to the mp3 files and after reading most of the discussions in this forum I was convinced that it must be THE sample library. Now, that I own it, I\'m a little bit disappointed, because compared to the EastWest Steinway B I had before, it sounds kind of dull to me - no ambience, if you know what I mean.

Duke<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">A couple of tips:

First, it\'s definitely a darker sounding piano than the EastWest, but there is plenty of high end there. If you need to boost it, it takes EQ very well.

Second, there\'s a whole other set of \"distant\" room samples in there, and a .gsp file setup which will load both sets of samples on two linked ports. You can alter the balance between the two sets in the DSP Station, giving you a really wide range of ambient control.

The EastWest Steinway is both closer and brighter mic\'ed, which can sound larger when you\'re just playing solo, but can be difficult to punch through a mix. Actually, the darker and slightly more distant recording of the Post Steinway tends to punch through much harder in my experience.

Give it some time, and really put it through its various paces. I think you\'ll discover that there\'s a lot there, and that your first impression may be replaced by a smile.

If not, then (I know you\'ll love hearing this images/icons/rolleyes.gif ) you may want to investigate the Bardstown Bosendorfer, which would be exactly the opposite but equally lovely direction in relationship to your current EastWest Steinway B. It\'s both brighter and more immediately in your face, and for someone who is looking for that characteristic, you won\'t find a better example of it anywhere.

The great thing is that there are so many wonderful pianos to choose from. The scary ($$$) thing is that there are so many great pianos to choose from....

[Rob Elliott]

I second Bruce\'s .gsp comment. Give that a try and you will find a lot of varibility (depending on your mix/ears). Good luck.

[dukedroese]

Thanks everybody soooooooooo much for their comment. I will take the time and try everything out as recommended. Thanks again and again!!!

Duke

[guitar_man]

dukedroese: I agree with you 100%. I also bought the PMI Grandioso based on reviews in this forum, and was also totally disappointed...a big waste of money! The sound is anemic and dull. After spending hundreds of dollars, we shouldn’t have to “work with it” that much. Heck, Rob Elliott even implies that it might be your ear! Not true.

I unloaded it from GS, and bought Bardstown Bosendorfer. Right out of the box: Beautiful, full, bright and expressive piano. I am amazed how lovely this piano is. I love it. Too bad it took me the EW Steinway and PMI Grandioso mistakes to find out about the Bosendorfer.

[Hiro]

Hello.Guitar man.
Why don\'t we stop posting those kind of comments on thins forum. Consindering respects for those who all develop our library, I think it is not the right way to express your experiments.
As you read the previous posts, some people found out Grandioso is wonderful and usable.If you did not like the sound, I am sorry but the it is the matter of tastes. But you still can change sounds to be your way like Bruce does.

Please think about why you can make music this way, and who is giving us those opportunities, you will never be able to post comments like this.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by guitar_man:
dukedroese: I agree with you 100%. I also bought the PMI Grandioso based on reviews in this forum, and was also totally disappointed...a big waste of money!<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, I\'d disagree there. You want a bright piano, clearly, and Kip\'s Bosie fit the bill for your tastes perfectly. But you are talking about taste, not quality. The Steinway is actually very well recorded, every bit as well recorded as the Bosendorfer in a different way. It is anything but dull and anemic. It is just not what you personally desired.

There\'s a big difference in that and \"a big waste of money.\" But I\'m glad you like the Bosendorfer, because it too is a fine instrument.

I\'d be willing to bet you\'re eventually going to find a use for a darker sounding piano, and you\'ll open the Steinway on a lark and find that it fits like a glove. I know that I use both the Steinway and the Bosendorfer all the time, depending on the context. They have very different applications.

[Jake Johnson]

I don\'t have this piano, but want to say that my own experience with pianos is often to dislike the sound at first, and then after some experiments find settings that make it sing. (After all, the samples can only be set up to sound good on the developer\'s keyboard, monitors, headphones, and to react to his or her touch, so it\'s natural to want to tweak the samples to your own needs and tastes.)

Obviously, a loss pass filter and adjusting the velocity settings to one\'s own preferences may help. (I almost always have to raise the setting for the pp layer. I guess I\'m heavy handed.)And a very little reverb, trying all the default Giga reverbs and tweaking each. You can of course save the reverb setting you want.

And probably most important, at least in my limited experience, is getting the amplitude right. The lower the volume in playing digital samples, the less \"accuracy.\" Playing through decent monitors may help, since you can move them away somewhat and play at a higher level than you might want through headphones. I use headphones, but connect through lightpipe to a Fostex VF-16 digital multitrack that acts as an additional mixer, giving me more control over amplitude.

I also find that I can judge the quality of a sample better when I am listening than when I\'m playing.

Sorry if you know all of this already, and I\'m sorry for your experience with the new Post piano, which sounds great in the demos. Maybe this would be a good place for people to post their favorite tweaks for the Grandioso? Could Michiel weigh in here with some information about how the the sound in the demos was achieved?

[Jake Johnson]

Oops. Low pass filter, I meant.

[Dr. Hook]

Originally posted by Hiro:
Hello.Guitar man.
Why don\'t we stop posting those kind of comments on thins forum. Consindering respects for those who all develop our library, I think it is not the right way to express your experiments.
As you read the previous posts, some people found out Grandioso is wonderful and usable.If you did not like the sound, I am sorry but the it is the matter of tastes. But you still can change sounds to be your way like Bruce does.

Please think about why you can make music this way, and who is giving us those opportunities, you will never be able to post comments like this.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I thought this forum was open for expressing opinions and the sharing of information --- Personally, I appreciate hearing about experiences with sampled libraries and try to avoid unnecessary expense.

However, I don\'t trust many of the opinions given on this forum because I\'ve found that what some people are saying is the complete opposite of the truth. Ultimately, you have to listen to the demos, trust your own ears and decide for yourself.

I have the BA Bose and think it\'s the greatest piano ever.

[Michiel Post]

Originally posted by Jake Johnson:
Maybe this would be a good place for people to post their favorite tweaks for the Grandioso? Could Michiel weigh in here with some information about how the the sound in the demos was achieved?<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">All right, I\'ll bite.
I will not comment on the qualifications of the GRANDIOSO Steinway D except that I second everything Bruce just said here. Instead I will just answer Jake\'s last question.

The demos are all recorded in GigaStudio using the built-in capture utility that I like very much. I use a little bit of GigaStudios NFX EQ (nothing dramatic, just a little extra high freq. that\'s it). I just use that eq because its there in the application and needs no other steps in the recording process. The settings I use are in one of the GSP-files that are on the CD\'s.
Then I passed the Wav-files trough Waves L2 for amplitude corrections and added some Altiverb (that part I really love).
The encoding is done in ProTools with constant bitrates.
Most of my demos are recorded like this without any fancy processing like expensive eq\'s. I prefer to let the listener hear what the sample sounds like instead of demonstrating what I can produce in my studio.

When people feel the need for changes in the sound they\'re always free to email me for discussions and personal tailor-made articulations. We\'re working all the time to make this product better and the response from our customers is overwhelming.

When you have trouble getting the same sound in your own studio there may be something wrong in the signal path. Most problems come from connections between equipment and I would recommend finding a good guide on this topic. You can make a Steinway D sample sound like a pizza box when you connect your gear without looking at things like impedance and headroom. I\'m not suggesting that is the case with the person complaining here but I hear so many \"this sounds brilliant\" about GRANDIOSO that this is my first thought.
Hope this helps,

Michiel Post

[Rob Elliott]

Dr. Hook\'s comments are a prefect example of the Piano being a highly subjective and personal tastes/preference type instrument. I owned a Yamaha D7 Diskclavier a few years back and thought I would never be caught dead playing a Steinway (beautiful piano but it WAS too dark for me at THAT time.) Lo and behold, here I am preferring the Steinway. When I can afford Kip\'s piano, I will purchase it. As I see it, when I get Kip\'s Bosen I will have \'brown shoes AND black shoes\' - sometimes one \'color\' fits the outfit better.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I think negative reviews are just as valid as positive ones myself.

But \"waste of money\" is a very strong opinion to air, without backing it up.

What was his listening environment? Is he monitoring on professional gear?

Those questions aren\'t brought to bear when a person isn\'t making a strong claim. But they become all important responsibilities in the case of a review that could have negative consequences for a producer with an otherwise excellent reputation.

That\'s not a free speech issue, that\'s a professional courtesy issue. Freedom and responsibility are inseparable. One cannot exist without the other.

And in fact, we have clues (the positive mention of Kip\'s equally excellent Bosie) which could indicate this is a matter of taste, not quality. This could also indicate that the monitoring system in question is in itself muddy--so that the darker Steinway did indeed sound dull, but not because of a lack of quality in the sample--because perhaps the listening system or environment was the true flaw.

We don\'t know these things, and that is the point I\'d make in all of this. I believe we have responsibilities to each other, and to people who may be basing decisions on our discussions. When a strong opinion is aired, it should just be well qualified. That is not too much to ask of each other, and I believe the negative comments about Guitar Man\'s post are more centered in that spirit rather than saying that one shouldn\'t post a negative comment. There are professional ways to raise issues, and I think we all would like the level of discourse here to rise above hasty generalizations.

[Doug Bircher]

The only piano I own is the gigapiano. If it sounds too dark and dull to me, and if I wanted to pick between the Grandioso and the Bosen, would the Bosen be the obvious best choice, or does the Grandioso also sound brighter than the gigapiano, just less so than the Bosen?

Doug

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Originally posted by Doug Bircher:
The only piano I own is the gigapiano. If it sounds too dark and dull to me, and if I wanted to pick between the Grandioso and the Bosen, would the Bosen be the obvious best choice, or does the Grandioso also sound brighter than the gigapiano, just less so than the Bosen?

Doug<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">If you want brighter, then I\'d go with the Bosendorfer. It\'s got mucho sparkle, and it will definitely jump out there are grab you much more than the GigaPiano.

[sjduck]

My 2 cents ...

Negative reviews are just as valid as positive ones. Freedom of speech and all that.

Close miced pianos (my favourite) seem to have more presence, brilliance and life than distantly miced ones. Distantly miced pianos sound more natural to me and less like a recording.

The Steinway B sample has an unmatched quality but is let down by its lack of layers and release samples. It\'s just a bit out of date now.

Michiel\'s and Kip\'s samples are leading edge and as yet, unsurpassed as overall packages. However, I prefer PLAYING close miced piano samples (i.e. Kip\'s) as they seem more responsive but many people seem to be getting great results in RECORDINGS with Michiel\'s Steinway D.

My one major wish is that we as a group of piano obsessives draw up an ideal \'spec\' for what we believe to be the idea giga piano sample. (e.g. x layers, x release samples, close miced, ...)

I think that we\'re all still learning regarding piano sampling and as a result we should all try to buy as many piano samples that we can in an effort to support the developers. (Having said that I haven\'t bought the Steinway D yet...) The developers could help out here by offering non-commercial licences for their products.

The more copies the developers sell, the more they\'ll want to invest in the next project, and the more projects that they work on, the more their art improves.

Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble.

[JohnGrant]

What\'s needed are dealers who are willing and able to permit customers to test-drive these samples. Until that happens potential buyers are in the position of having to buy something without having tested it. Not good.

Having said that, it\'s amazing what some users can get out of their samples. I\'ve just heard some of Lawrence Lougheed\'s work with the Steinway B (East-West). He manages (I don\'t know how) to eliminate ALL of this particular sample\'s \"issues,\" and to produce a completely natural sound.

J. Grant
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html (\"http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/42/john_lewis_grant.html\")

[Aqua Tarkus]

John, does Lawrence ever participate on this list? Or perhaps he has a Web site that demonstrates his tweaking of the EW Steinway? Either way, I\'d love to speak with him ...

Many thanks,
A.T.

[Michiel Post]

Just another tip (after comparing GRANDIOSO and Kip\'s Bosendorfer) for Duke;
The \"PMI STEINWAY D LOUD\" patch is very brilliant compared to the \"classic\" patch. Even brighter than the Bosendorfer in a way as the FFF samples are accessed even while playing at lower velocity values. The FFF layer is everything but dull.

Maybe your midi chain is set to send velocity values from 0-100 instead of from 0-127. This is the case with many Yamaha keyboards in their factory settings. Clavinova keyboards cannot send above velocity value 100 without making a sequencer \"translator\" active on the chanel.
When you play Grandioso with midi velocities under 100 you will never activate the higest layers and thus play at a MezzoForte to Forte acrticulation. Some keyboard players never play really loud on their keyuboards. Some keyboards have settings like \"easy\" and \"hard\", where the latter means it\'s difficult to generate midi velocity values above 100.

Just a thought.

Michiel Post

[88]

I am another pianist that is looking for a favorite giga piano. I purchased the Imperial Bos hoping to agree with the many glowing reports in this forum. I do like the sound of Kip\'s piano, as individual notes. And the middle of the piano lacks the nasal tone of many others imo.

The part that puzzles me is that as I play, individual notes will sound louder, dull, or trigger different samples with drastically different timbres, etc - should I say uneven. I even have one note that I can make sound like a muted note on command by playing it with a particular velocity. I\'ve resisted posting this until now because I haven\'t taken the time to try to tweak the program to try to determine what might improve things.

Also, I thought I might seek advice from Kip first. I still believe that the piano may be wonderful, with some advised tweaking. It is still frustrating, that it apparently takes a lot of programming skills to achieve a playable instrument, at least in my experience. That said, I would appreciate any feedback on whether others have had the same experience with the Imperial Bos, or can offer any advice.

[Bardstown Audio]

In response to the preceding posting, the following paragraphs below are the documentation that goes with the sampled Bosendorfer Imperial version 2.3, which is the most current articulation upgrade for this sampled piano. This upgrade was released two months ago, and all registered customers received this version 2.3 articulation upgrade from me.

There are thirty four articulation patches programmed on this sampled Bosendorfer Imperial concert grand piano. The first group of patches on this sampled piano depict the individual notes just as they sound on the Bosendorfer Imperial that was sample recorded. The patches that are labeled \"Full Map 2\" have been tweaked to make for more of an even sounding sampled piano, whereas the first group of patches will exhibit slight variations of hammer felt voicings on certain notes, which displays the true character of this piano. I did not program the \"full map 2\" to be completely even in terms of hammer felt voicings because doing so would deprive this wonderful piano of life and character.

The patches that are labeled \"heavy\" have velocity settings that are set to respond like a real keyboard on a real concert grand piano. The other patches have velocity settings that are lighter and more typical of most other sampled pianos on the market. Personally I like a sampled piano that is set with higher velocity settings so that I can play with some force on the keyboard controller before triggering the louder sampled velocity notes.

In addition to the articulation patches mentioned above, there are also some filter patches.. \"mod wheel filter,\" which is controlled with the mod wheel, and \"velocity filter\" which is controlled by the velocity of strike on the keyboard controller.. the lighter you play, more filter is applied, and with louder playing with more forceful playing on the keyboard controller, you have less velocity filter applied. The velocity filter patches make for a soft, mellow, and warmer sounding piano for soft classical, new age, ballads, etc.

There are also some \"lite\" articulation patches as well. These are patches that use fewer samples which consume less polyphony voices for people who want to load Giga Studio with several instruments, and be able to conserve polyphony by using fewer voices so that they may be able to load a maximum number of instruments.

With this large variety of articulation patches, it is doubtful that any one individual would find all thirty four patches useful. There is a large variety of patches in order to accommodate the majority of musicians. By experimenting with all of the various patches, one will very quickly decide which patches they will favor and tend to use the majority of the time.

For musicians who are new to Giga Studio/Sampler, you access various articulation patches by double clicking on them in the \"loaded instruments\" view. The \"loaded instruments\" view is opened by clicking on the \"Loaded Instruments\" tab at the bottom of the window in Giga Studio.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[88]

Thanks Kip,

I think my absence from this forum over the last few months, and I\'m on the road this summer, helped me miss the update you\'ve released. I look forward to trying the new articulations....88

[Bardstown Audio]

Hi 88,

If you did not by chance receive the version 2.3 articulation upgrade for the Bosendorfer Imperial, email me and I will send it to you right away attached to an email.

I hopefully thought that I did send it to everybody. Please accept my apology if I failed to send it to you.

Kip
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com (\"http://www.bardstownaudio.com\")

[Michiel Post]

Originally posted by JohnGrant:
What\'s needed are dealers who are willing and able to permit customers to test-drive these samples. Until that happens potential buyers are in the position of having to buy something without having tested it. Not good.

J. Grant
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I agree.
PMI made a \"test\'gig for GRANDIOSO. Its basicaly one octave and some bass notes with all variations. The file is too large (300MB) to distribute over the internet. Serious customers can recieve a copy from us.
I know TASCAM supplies its dealers with a Gigastation where you can listen to this test-gig, amongst a lot of other \"test\'versions. You can sit down there and play to check if you get what you need.

Michiel Post

[dukedroese]

Sorry guys,

I didn\'t mean to machinate a war between some of you guys; sorry again if I did. I agree that it is propably a matter of taste and maybe I\'m not as advanced as others in working with sample libraries, but it is definitely not a problem with my equipment. I\'m using it now for years and it works perfectly alright with everything I\'ve done so far. From a Roland A90 I use an Emagic AMT8 for MIDI input, a RME HAmmerfall 9636 card and ADI 8 PRO converters for output, a Mackie 24/8 console and Mackie 824 monitors. As for my budget, I think it\'s the best gear I could get!
Thanks again everybody for their comments,

Duke

[Aqua Tarkus]

I believe the dullness in the sound that you refer to may be a result of the heavyweight noise reduction that was applied after sampling. However, the noise reduction system used was apparently very sophisticated and this problem can, apparently, be fixed in part by the application of EQ. This, I suppose, is one of the drawbacks of distant micing.

[Techmusicom]

hi dukedroese,

I have a soluce. You can customize and program your own Piano.

Load the Grandioso in the Giga instrument Editor,

change the velocity map, change the filters.

The instrument Editor is very powerfull tool.

for example :
Open your Steinway B in the Giga instrument Editor, you will see that the samples aren\'t filtered a lot. Natural sound. Try for each note
to change the presets.

YOu can export all .wav of the Grandioso Steinway D in a directory. You will hear (i\'m sure) that they are very very good. Compare with the same note in the .gig files.

And try to re-program the Piano !!!!!!!!

All samples (.wav) can be very good. However if the samples aren\'t good programmed !!!!

I\'ve hear the .mp3 demo of PMI on their site. Sound very good. Just some PP or MF velocity sound not very natural.

Steinway D have a lot of harmonics. With a lot of sampled velocity it\'s very difficult to program a natural curve for the velocity. A realistic velocity map is very difficult to obtain.

But i haven\'t tested this Piano !!!!!

Good luck,

Regards,

Olivier

[Jake Johnson]

Could someone post some wave files of the Grandioso that are not processed using Macintosh\\Apple programs? I would like to hear how it sounds as it is being played.