Gigastudio. A failure tale ?

[Giorgio Tommasini]

I was fond of this product. I shared the overall attitude that, though on a neverending beta stage, Gigastudio represented the ultimate approach to sampling. This seems an overenthusiastic view. Gigastudio\'s strength is the ability to reproduce samples of unlimited length. Is this enough? The software is affected by conceptual limitations as well as by serious bugs which may preclude professional use. Reliability is low and overall performance (ex. polyphony) unpredictable. Sound processing is poor, basically limited to simple bandpass filtering. But the poor software design actually emerges from a remarkably inefficient debugging process. Since the first release, no single serious bug has been addressed. I recently discovered that vibrato and tremolo applied to one instrument actually propagate to all others, if the vibrato/tremolo option is activated by the editor. Did you notice this? This makes multiple instruments performances virtually unusable.
From Nemesys, no response on this topic. The same applies to many serious bugs reported by others. Oddly enough, the audience seems to be poorly responsive too.
Does it mean we don\'t expect anything concrete from Nemesys to improve their/our product ?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Giorgio


[This message has been edited by Giorgio Tommasini (edited 12-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Giorgio Tommasini (edited 12-24-2000).]

[elle]

Maybe the W2K version, promised for Winter Namm (18-21 Jan, 6320 Hall A) will include the bug cleanup needed. Probably introduce some new one\'s too ....:-)

What the heck...it\'s Christmas.
Merry things to you all.

[Gulliver]

Hmm. This seems to be another personal experience that for some reason has lead the victim to proclaim that the entire venure that seems to went amiss must be a lost cause. I\'ve observed that this strange phenomenon is limited to the software world, after all I can\'t remember the last time someone cursing the entire line of EMU or Roland samplers because they had trouble with their new purchase. Don\'t kid yourself Sir, Gigastudio is so engrained into the top professional ranks of audio/midi production and sampling that it\'s already hard to imagine a high-tech studio without atleast one elaborate setup. Does the system have bugs? Offcoarse! Do the bugs involve system stability, reliability, or some other professionally critical function? No! The only time I came across a serious crash is when I uninstalled Gigasampler incorrectly and ran Gigastudio for the first time and it responded with the deadly blue screen crash. Simple filtering vs Advanced filtering? Is this a serious bug or a possible feature in the future? I don\'t think Nemesys ever marketed their sampler as a sophisticated synthesizer/sampler combination, it is primerly a sample-playback system, adding enormous amounts of sophisticated filtering, oscillators and envelopes would only negate the advantage of low latency. Hardware samplers with their monster DSP chips are much better at this. Vibrator/Tremelo across all channels? I\'ve never come across this, it sounds like a sequencer issue. I\'ve poked into every conceivable corner of the GSEditor and have come across 1 major and 1 minor bug, the major was addressed with the last patch. I can only imagine that with time Nemesys will address all of the actual bugs (and I stress \'actual\' because %80 of the bugs being reported on this forum, while myself not sure %100, sound like either a system hardware or sequencer problem) The challenge will be to weed out what\'s really a bug and what is not. This whole thing is being run on a platform (PC+Win) that is like an interconnected minefield, you install a new driver and half the time you\'re not aware that it replaced a crucial .dll file that might make your sequencer go haywire and in turn cause Gigastudio to appear that it is not working. This is really possible and can be a cause for a lot of frustration.

Regards,
F. Juma.

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Gulliver,

I appreciate your constructive mood. What I contest is the widespread attitude of formal optimism, often based on wishful thinking rather than on thoroughly scientific approach.
The endless list of bugs continuosly reported by experienced users since Gigasampler\'s epoque does indicate at least that Nemesys is more devoted to new delopments, easier to advertise, rather than on serious debugging of what they sold as a non-beta software. What you do not seem to appreciate is the fact we paid money for a product which still requires all us to concentrate more on technical aspects of debugging rather than on musical production, as demonstrated by 3984 posts under the voice \"software issues/solutions\" . Under this respect the Gigastudio saga is that of a very bad failure.
Coming back to the problem I reported, that is, propagation of tremolo/vibrato to all loaded instruments with tremolo/vibrato enabled, it is definitely NOT related to sequencer issues. It can be easily demonstrated by driving two instruments on two different channels by the same midi keyboard. The tremolo/vibrato spread does occur for all instrument where it has been enabled by an external controller (modwheel or aftertouch), even if subsequently disabled and rerouted to the internal controller. I would be very glad to learn that all this is due to my particular setting, but it does not look as anybody has thoroughly investigated this and reported it as a false problem. Moreover, I would expect Nemesys should clarify the issue by giving an authoritative answer to my question. Unfortunately, as always, a deep silence.

Best regards,
Giorgio

[This message has been edited by Giorgio Tommasini (edited 12-25-2000).]

[Giorgio Tommasini]

I\'m wondering if Nemesys still exists. I\'ve sent three requests of assistance, clearly describing the above problem, together with complete diagnostics. After about one month I didn\'t get any reply.

Giorgio

[Rackthemout]

Having the same problems old boy ! I\'ve wasted hours on this. Pulling machines to pieces and re-building them is not my idea of fun. I\'m trying to create decent music
rather than spend time pulling my hair out. What do I get? samples that give mod wheel wobble or vibrato intermitantly for no reason
whatsover. Phah ! Come on you guys at nemesys admit there is a problem \'cos there damn well is one.

[Chadwick]

There\'s obviously a problem with Gigastudio applying (at least) vibrato controller info across more than the intended channel.

Does anyone know if vibrato applied to an instrument on PORT one gets applied to instruments on the other three ports?

If it doesn\'t, maybe, merely as a workaround, you could \'isolate\' the instruments requiring vibrato on its own port.

If you aren\'t using the mod wheel, and there\'s no mod wheel controller data appearing in the sequencer track windows, have a look for aftertouch controller data. In some patches aftertouch is used to bring in vibrato just like the mod wheel.

I get a little \'heavy handed\' sometimes and have ended up filtering aftertouch data at the sequencer. That way I know it\'s not getting sent out by accident.

As a last resort you could edit the affected GS patches so that they don\'t respond to controllers with any vibrato at all (although this is a pretty extreme limitation on the patch).

Good luck

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Hi Rackthemout and Chadwick.

Unfortunately, vibrato/tremolo simultaneously affects all instruments independently of the Midi controller used.
So it doesn\'t help if you\'re using the breath controller instead of the mod wheel.
Disabling vibrato/tremolo is the only effective but clearly unacceptable alternative.

It would be nice to hear from Nemesys though.

Regards,

Giorgio

[daw32965]

Giorgio:

I have to disagree. I am a new user to GigaStudio 160 and have invested several thousand dollars on hardware to run it and of course the samples. I have found it to be nothing but awesome and breath taking. We are a major publisher who saves millions of dollars a year by utilizing the sounds to cut down on the cost of studio time and live players. You must have adequate and up-to-date hardware. I have a P4, 256 RDRAM running nothing but the GS and a separate computer running CakeWalk Pro to record the tracks, mix and cut to CD. Just finished one of our first orchestrations and it was nothing short of realistic.

Good luck and hope you can find something that even comes close.

[Simon Ravn]

Nothing short of realistic, OK... I\'ll hold you to that http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Can you post a demo or preview or something to prove it? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif)

[Giorgio Tommasini]

Yes, Chadwick.

I performed some new experiments. Vibrato/tremolo does propagate to all instruments even if assigned to different ports.

Regards,

Giorgio

[Rackthemout]

to: daw32965

Having a powerful P4 system with rambus memory does not cure the inherent vibrato problem that Gigastudio is demonstrating at present, I know this because I have access to any computer of any spec. that I wish to lay my hands on (I run a computer business) and a top-end P4 & RAMBUS based system with latest technology components has got nothing to do with it. You don\'t even need a sequencer for the problem to manifest itself!That said I am pleased you have had nothing but success with the product however I am absolutely stunned you haven\'t found this problem !

[Trevelyan]

Oh yes, of course, just buy the absolutely up-to-date hardware (ie change it, say, every 6 months or so), preferrably two machines, one for the most excentrical GigaStudio, one for the sequencing software -- and it _might_ work! If it doesn\'t, blame anyone, but not Nemesys.
If your special hd or motherboard or RAM or something isn\'t the right one in combination with finicky GS, throw it away and try some other...
I would\'t have known how to throw out my money without GigaStudio. Thanks!!

[daw32965]

Obviously the best in the industry use GS and it\'s samples. You want demos? Then pop in a copy of \"The Lion King\" (Disney) or how about \"Mission Impossible\". I guess these major studios had to settle using GS.

Get a life. If you can\'t afford the hardware to run the software or have the brains, then maybe you need to purchase something you can handle and understand. It\'s for the big boys.

[Giorgio Tommasini]

\"Obviously the best in the industry use GS and it\'s samples.\" \"I guess these major studios had to settle using GS.\"

A major contribution, daw32965. Very informative indeed.
Giorgio

[food4thought]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by daw32965:

Get a life. If you can\'t afford the hardware to run the software or have the brains, then maybe you need to purchase something you can handle and understand. It\'s for the big boys. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Visit this link to find out more about your Pentium 4 setup: http://www.emulators.com/pentium4.htm (\"http://www.emulators.com/pentium4.htm\")

I am sure you will at least understand the basic idea behind it...

It seems that you neither have the hardware, nor the brains yourself, judging by your investment. So sincerely please, give us a break.

food4thought

[food4thought]

I almost forgot...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by daw32965:
Obviously the best in the industry use GS and it\'s samples. You want demos? Then pop in a copy of \"The Lion King\" (Disney) or how about \"Mission Impossible\". I guess these major studios had to settle using GS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lion King was released in 1994. Mission Impossible was released in 1996.

Nemesys was founded in 1996. Lion King music could not have been done with Nemesys products and I highly doubt M.I. music could either.

Is there anything YOU can do right in your life?

[daw32965]

The Beta versions stupid!!!!!!!!!!!

[daw32965]

The proof is in the pudding. I am making music and your not. So I guess that makes you the real dumb *** here. Obviously if you were a pro, you would be able to correct your problems instead of bashing GS. Like I said, the proof is in the pudding.

[Paul George Webb]

Is the purpose of this forum the clash of egos, or is it intended as a forum for musicians to help eachother?

I\'d just like to know for future reference.

Paul

[Ed Lima]

The score to Lion King was composed by Hans Zimmer, whom we all know to have just recently moved his composing studio away from hardware sampling to Giga. Mission Impossible was by Danny Elfman, and I\'m almost completely certain he didn\'t and doesn\'t run a Giga-based sample system. And let\'s all be nice on here, okay? We\'re all working towards the same ends.

[KingIdiot]

Ok I\'m not going to bash anyone on this thread. It seems that theres too much of this going on in threads like this, and not enough explanations for comments or \"beliefs\" if you will.


I have the utmost respect for most the users of this BBS, both in debating and in many cases their work

daw32965:


I do believe that you are mistaken about the Zimmer stuff regarding GigaStudio. Lion King of course was done years before any giga technology was in the works. Most of the demos and any sample work was most likely done on Emu Systems (of course a few Akais as well...jsut not endorsed...mag rags...sigh)As well, There were live instruments used. You\'re prolly thinking M.I. 2 for the Mission Impossible comment, and you\'re more than likely right that GS was used in the production of that score (I doubt exclusively). Also there were ALOT of live insturuments used on that one too. As for M.I. 1, lots of live instruments on that one,..and any sampler stuff in it is most likely EMU


Now I do Believe Giga to be a MOST AMAZING and helpful tool. It is jsut that tho a tool. Maybe it is bad software in some cases, and has problems, but these are problems I can deal with.


Giorgio:


You\'re right problems like the Vibrato one you\'re talking about (I haven\'t really checked it out, but it sounds nasty) are pretty bad. I don\'t think GS is the end all replacement for samplers, mainly because of the things that it cannot do that are STANDARDS for samplers. However its benefits make it something that I find irreplacable (ok.. ok.... a bunch of the new Akais fully loaded would be nice...).


ok now lets talk about trying to fix this thing or working with work arounds. The obvious workaround for me is to turn off Vibrato until its neded for a track. If it is, then track the vibrato down to a WAV and trigger it for playback. It is a hassle but its something that can be done. I really hated the fact that I had to track stuff down when I ran out of poly, but I found that its not a big hassle as it rarely takes much longer then the length of the song to get the track down,...and I\"M ALWAYS LISTENING BACK.


Anyhow, yu\'re right,..it needs to be fixed.....but if we can find ways to deal with it,...maybe we should ... or rather could...UNTIL THEY FIX IT... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Simon Ravn:


Shut up :P....ok j/k I know I said no bashing, I jsut really had nothing to say and I needed to throw a jab at you for some idiotic reason :P Actually really shut up and give us more music to check out :P

You too Giorgio


------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 01-25-2001).]

[Simon Ravn]

Like KingIdiot said, they use REAL orchestras (you know, people, sitting down on chairs actually playing notes on violins, clarinets, french horns and the like) for almost all Hollywood scores containing orchestral work. Only more synthy stuff can \'hide\' sampled orchestral work in the background, or you could make it a style. But if you want anything expressive, you use a real orchestra. Besides, american movies have such huge budgets that it doesn\'t matter much to the budget if you have to hire an orchestra. And Lion King using GS? Gimme a break. And anyway, most pro composers only use samplers to do mock ups and pre/mid-production tests. And when we talk about Danny Elfman, Hans Zimmer etc., they use them because they don\'t have enough skill and brains to write to paper... http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Simon Ravn]

Oh and DAW, please let us hear some of your music, so we don\'t just see you as a lot of hot air.. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Jamieh]

Guys, just to comment on Hans Zimmer--If you listen pretty carefully, you can tell on the Crimson Tide soundtrack that he is using a sampled french horn, not a real one. I believe the same is true in Lion King. If you surround sampled instruments with some real ones, you can sometimes hide them and they sound real unless you listen really carefully and know what to listen for.



[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 01-27-2001).]

[tripit]

Better judgement tells me not to pip in here, but here goes....
First of all, DAW is incorrect. I was working with Lebo M at the same time he was working with Hans Zimmer and Mark Mancina for Lion King, and we visited Media Ventures at that time. It was in the fall of \'92 continuing into early 93. Han\'s used his huge collection (72) of roland S-760\'s for mock-up. Giga was not around in beta or otherwise.
As far as Danny Elfman goes, I don\'t know for sure if he uses it or not - but I think not.
And I can\'t help but respond to a somewhat nasty comment made above concerning Danny Elfman. I don\'t know the man, (Danny Elfman) but I do know Scott Smalley, who works with him and does a lot of his orchestration. Danny writes every note of his scores - every note. This coming from horses mouth, or at least Scott\'s mouth. And yes, they do use the real thing, both Danny and Hans. Sometimes they leave in sample parts, but the majority is real. I heard the mock up for Backdraft theme when it was first done, before going to Ron Howard or the Orchestra. It was an excellent mock up, all done with synths (S760\'s) but, you can hear the difference between the real and the mock up. With that said, I came to this forum to find help for my giga setup, but will probably only comment and go back to work with a broken gigastudio.
I spent time and money to make sure I had the right hardware before I went whole hog on giga. But, even with the right rig, (to the best of my knowledge and that of others who are spending their time building these machines for use with giga) Nemesys has some bugs to work out. As I write this, giga is hanging on boot up because of some kind of quick sound problem - it doesn\'t like changes in the database, and I have a cue that needs to be finished today. So, I\'m now switching back to my samplers to finish the job. This is not why I bought gigastudio
and I wouldn\'t give up my collection of samplers any time soon, because quite frankly, I can\'t depend on giga to be there, working flawlessly all the time. It\'s a good idea, but it needs to made into a workhorse first. I see a lot of frustrated people in this forum and it\'s a bummer that Nemesys doesn\'t take better care of their bread and butter. The support for giga is piss poor. The information on the website is lacking in great detail. They should take a lesson from Translator. I\'ve had nothing but great response from those guys. A perfect example of how a software company should work.
So, I feel for you guys with problems, it suck.