Q for Peter Alexander. Revised or original R-K?

[Leon Willett]

Hi Peter:

In a previous post, you said the following in response to my questions on what orchestration textbooks to get: \"The secret of the Rimsky book (original) lies in the subheads because this is where you find the key lists of orchestral devices that make John Williams\' and everyone elses music sparkle. Herb Spencer, JW\'s late orchestrator, told me that to make it in Hollywood, you needed to know 1000 devices. The original R-K is where you find the list.\"

Wow. That sounds like a great grab bag of useful tricks, that would help me get started while I\'m studying.

My question is: is this list in all versions of the book? If not, which exactly should I get? (which edition, year, etc...)

Thanks.

PS: I am going with just R-K and Alder for the moment, and the Fux book for counterpoint.

[Leon Willett]

Also,

why are the example scores in many orchestration books not in concert pitch?!? What use to me is looking at alto and tenor clefs, with all the instruments in different keys? I have found this to be the case with a lot of books on orchestration (flicking through them in the bookshop), and it takes ages to work out the chord that the various sections are building if you have to start transposing in your head... What a bore!

I hope this is not the case with the R-K.

[PeterRoos]

Well, most of the examples in orchestration books are simply made by (photo)copying original (printed) material. If you were to study orchestration examples with all parts written in C, how could you ever make the jump to \"real\" printed scores?

The old Rimsky-Korsakov book (as all other orchestration books) adhere to this old standard...

A helpful (though also painful) trick is to start using alto, tenor clefs etc in your sequencer...

Peter Roos

[Leon Willett]

Thanks for the answers, Peter.

The edition available in my local bookshop is standard book number 486-21266-1, from Dover publications. It\'s the one edited by Maximilian Steinberg, and its the \"slightly corrected, unabridged republication of the 1922 edition. Two volumes printed as one.\"

Is the one with the list of devices?

cheers

[Neal Keane]

Another advantage of transposed scores is that you can see, at a glance, which instruments are playing at the top of their range, (upper ledger lines) demanding some attention, and which are playing a more supporting role. Concert scores hide this somewhat.

But, I know what you mean, Leon, harmonies are a real pain to figure out... I\'m glad Elfman (and others) have made \"concert\" scores the norm in hollywood.

It\'s probably best to forget about what\'s going on vertically anyway, and concentrate more on the horizontal lines when studying scores. The shape of a phrase is much more powerful than the underlying progression (except maybe for chromatic mediants images/icons/smile.gif ).

Neal

[Robert Kral]

Leon: Glad you posted this question in a new thread. I also followed the previous thread and was wondering the same thing: IE: does the NEW editition have the grab bag or ONLY the old edition.

The R-K book is the first one I read for my first orchestration in High School. It\'s an excellent book but I never bought it, just kep borrowing it from the library way back then. I\'d like to know if the new edition has the grab bag. If so I\'ll make my order....

[peter269]

Hey, fellows, thanks for the questions. Here are some answers.

1. The Rimksy book is a complete revision and it\'s Volume 1 of 8 Volumes. Each volume is designed to completely go through all the techniques with both Rimsky\'s examples and new ones from major 20th century and late 19th century writers whose works are both PD and recorded. The current volume is built around 27 scores that have heavily influenced film composition. There are instrumentation notes edited by the section leaders that play in Jerry Goldsmith\'s orchestra in LA. Thus, what you need for the scoring stage is right here. Here\'s a link that gives the TOC:

http://www.alexuniv.com/orch_princ.html (\"http://www.alexuniv.com/orch_princ.html\")

You\'ll also find more info on the GOS update CD\'s.

FYI, Volume 2 will be out in 2003.

2. The list of techniques that Herb Spencer was talking about is listed in the Dover edition, but completely fleshed out in each succeeding volume I put out. For each technique, you often have to go through 30 or more scores completely before you find it.

3. Our Fux book is called Counterpoint by Fux, it goes through three-part counterpoint, has real music examples for each \"species\" covered, and focuses on how to write counterpoint in each mode. For those with a jazz background, this is THE bridge between classical and jazz.

http://www.alexuniv.com/cpoint.html (\"http://www.alexuniv.com/cpoint.html\")

4. Scores are not in concert pitch because they\'re printed for the conductor so that he has in front of him, on the stand, the exact part being played by the instrumentalist. With a concert score, a great deal of time can be wasted in a rehearsal with \"transpositional\" conversations. All of the scores in our Rimsky revision are full score, and transposed.

5. If you\'re having problems sight reading alto and tenor clefs, get a book called Rhythmic Articulation by Bona.

Thanks for the questions. Let me know if you have more.

[peter269]

Originally posted by Neal Keane:
... I\'m glad Elfman (and others) have made \"concert\" scores the norm in hollywood.
Neal<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'m sorry, but concert scores are not the \"norm\" in Hollywood. Many composers do write their scores in concert, but these are immediately transposed. Transposed scores are at the recording sessions. If the conductor is the composer, as Jerry Goldsmith always is, he may conduct from his concert sketches, but often may defer to the transposed score to see what\'s going on. When conducting is being done from the concert score, it\'s done from a large sheet published by Judy Green Music (www.judygreenmusic.com) with 16 bars in two groups of eight. When two pages are open, 32 bars are visible to the conductor.

Thanking Danny Elfman and others for making concert scores the \"norm\" is just not accurate. And as far forgetting vertical harmony to concentrate on linear lines, good grief, CRAFT!

[Neal Keane]

Thanking Danny Elfman and others for making concert scores the \"norm\" is just not accurate. And as far forgetting vertical harmony to concentrate on linear lines, good grief, CRAFT!

OK, I should thank Elfman et al for making concert scores \"more acceptable\".

Well, I didn\'t mean that vertical harmony should be completely forgotten (when studying). However, once the \"craft\" is understood, it should take a back seat to the more important melodic and orchestration techniques. It\'s easy to get bogged down with transpositional details and miss the forest for the trees.

At least for me, I tend to shelve a score rather than fight constant accidentals...but, then again, I\'m not a great reader images/icons/frown.gif .

Neal

[Leon Willett]

Peter, before this topic zooms off into the realms of wether it is best to study concert or transposing scores, could you give my above question a quick answer? (If the book I quoted is the one with the list of devices)

Thanks!!

PS: Neal, melodic contour remains intact with a concert score. Good point about spotting the tessitura of each instrument at a glance, though. Overall, I\'d still prefer concert scores, and you can learn the tessituras of all instruments as they relate to standard treble/bass clefs. This is, in my opinion, much less hassle than looking at a score in 4 simltaneous keys! It\'s a mind bender for me, anyway. And seing whether, say, the bassoons have crossed above the clarinets, etc... For the purposes studying, surely concert scores are the way to go.

[peter269]

Originally posted by Leon Willett:
Peter, before this topic zooms off into the realms of wether it is best to study concert or transposing scores, could you give my above question a quick answer? (If the book I quoted is the one with the list of devices) <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">If it\'s the Dover edition, yes. The list is in the subheads, but you still have to research 20-30 scores to find them. I know, because I\'m finishing volume 2 and hope to have it out later this year, early 2003.

[peter269]

Originally posted by Leon Willett:
Overall, I\'d still prefer concert scores, and you can learn the tessituras of all instruments as they relate to standard treble/bass clefs. This is, in my opinion, much less hassle than looking at a score in 4 simltaneous keys! It\'s a mind bender for me, anyway. And seing whether, say, the bassoons have crossed above the clarinets, etc... For the purposes studying, surely concert scores are the way to go.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Leon, Neal, I\'m not picking on anyone. But! There comes a place where for this kind of work you have to get your reading up. Music notation, not music, is the only true universal language. It\'s like anything else, the more you can speak and read a language, the further you get. By not building these skills, you cut yourself off from a lot of learning.

In regards to concert scores, the learning path that teaches is for YOU to transpose the score BACK to concert, then reduce it to a sketch score, then reorchestrate. That\'s how you learn. With samples and GigaStudio, you can add into the mix scoring and recording sections that appeal to your hearing, and so build your vocabulary that way.

Let me set your expectations: no matter how much you want it, transposed scores are the norm. And they\'re going to be the norm. Your choices are to complain and limit your journey, or raise the bar for yourself and build your reading skills.

On Father\'s Day, this is Padre Pete signing off!

[Neal Keane]

Originally posted by Peter:
Your choices are to complain and limit your journey, or raise the bar for yourself and build your reading skills.

...or I could complain just to bug you...Dad. images/icons/smile.gif

The fact that transpositional scores are the norm is due to traditional conventions relating to historical instruments and there is no urgent, logical reason warranting the continued practice today. Printing the parts in question with their transposition would suffice.

It just goes to show how ingrained some musical conventions are, in this case resulting in notational practices that are illogical from today\'s viewpoint.

Leon, I use the Dover edition you mentioned and it does have 300 of the device examples referenced and excerpted in the second half. I\'m guessing Peter is compiling some or all of the remaining 700 examples refenced in the text into his volumes (as well as other composer examples...really cool!) (Peter, please correct me if I\'m wrong...I know you will.)

There is another outstanding book (out-of-print, but surely at all the University libraries) called \"Creative Orchestration\" by George McKay. The book categorizes orchestration devices from a more artistic perspective with practical examples defining clarity, balance, blends, and colors.

Neal

P.S. Leon, you also might want to check out this website:
Artistic Orchestration (\"http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk.o/index.html\")

[Leon Willett]

Cheers, Peter. I have the book now, just started it.

What\'s a subhead? You mean the the examples listed under each heading like \"melody in octaves\"? Then you get a list of places where the melody has been orchestrated in octaves? (some of them are included in the second half of the book, but you have to get the full scores for the rest, is that right?)

Don\'t see how un-transposing a score makes you a better composer. Reducing it to a sketch and reorchestrating, yes! that\'s what it\'s all about. Then you are learning. but I can\'t see that you\'d lose any education if the score was concert before you started to reduce it. Transposition is just maths, and it takes time away from learning the important stuff.

[EternalBlue]

This maybe a bit of a tangent, but I was wondering if anyone could shed some light..perhaps peter? Is there any kind of level prerequisite to use any of the books discussed in this thread (R-K, Adler, Fux) Eventually I\'m interested to learn how to compose for some orchestral instruments, so those books can either help me now or later. But if these are intended for advanced musicians -- what would you recommend for a beginner who wants to learn the technicalities of music in as thorough a way as possible, other than majoring in music images/icons/grin.gif . Maybe a music theory book (if so suggestions please) or something else?

Cheers,

[Robert Kral]

Leon:

One of the most refresing days spent during the USC film Scoring Program at USC was our first orchestration class when we learned that in Hollywood, the scores are typically in concert, and that all our assignments would not need to be presented transposed. Something was said like \"when you\'re scoring for picture, you just don\'t have time for that!\"

I know if an orchestration book came in two versions: one with transposed scores and the other in concert pitch, I would unquestionably choose the concert version!

Time wasted on the stand?? Who knows transposition better than these players. All you do is say: \"Frecn Horns, where you\'re playing the concert F......\" for example.

[peter269]

Originally posted by Leon Willett:
Cheers, Peter. I have the book now, just started it.

You mean the the examples listed under each heading like \"melody in octaves\"? Then you get a list of places where the melody has been orchestrated in octaves? (some of them are included in the second half of the book, but you have to get the full scores for the rest, is that right?)

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Correct on all points.

[peter269]

Originally posted by EternalBlue:
what would you recommend for a beginner who wants to learn the technicalities of music in as thorough a way as possible, other than majoring in music images/icons/grin.gif . Maybe a music theory book (if so suggestions please) or something else?

Cheers,<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">For music theory, you can look at our Applied Professional Harmony. In this series, you\'re always writing and it\'s designed to be done with a MIDI keyboard or sequencing setup.

http://www.alexuniv.com/create.html (\"http://www.alexuniv.com/create.html\")

[peter269]

Originally posted by Robert Kral:
Leon:

I know if an orchestration book came in two versions: one with transposed scores and the other in concert pitch, I would unquestionably choose the concert version!

<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It would be nice, but don\'t expect that option in orchestration books for a long time.