Tips with Garritan Orch Strings

[KingIdiot]

I wanted to start a thread out here for Beta testers to share some tips we\'ve found with using this library to help end users get the most out of this amazing...yet HUGE library.

Damon has already found the Grand Detache layering idea, and of course found the samples to be his favorite...like I\'m sure most people will http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Also the use of GPC-5 and GPC-2 in conjunction with Maestro Tools is tricky but helpful. Moving GPC-2 (release) down during faster passages seems to help me, as well as moving GPC-5 (legato mask attack).

Layering short bows under the Long bows (across ports or MIDI channels) REALLY helps with adding/accenting bow movement with legato passages. Use the velocity sensitivity on the Short bows and the LEG long bows to get a really expressive instrument. Since you are combining the EXP on the Mod Wheel AND the velocity on the short bows you can \"accent\" the strings by hitting the keys harder but still get the natural volume of the EXP instruments. This does take a bit of volume layering and different short bows work better for different purposes but is something I\'ve found to really add another layer of expression. (read: Dis this does sound good http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif) Remember to use the Decay Control on the short bows to shorten up the sound of them. They layer better when you don\'t hear the full natural decay (GPC-1 I believe)

Another note about GPC control. It helps to \"float\" these around in real time and to add to the expressiveness in playing.

Ex.: Shortening the decay on the short bows during softer velocities for a rhythmic passage (ex: da da DA - da da DA da) helps for a more realistic sound.

EQ. Most of us have found that a cutback at 3000-4000 (depending on your ear) with a very small EQ helps the strings \"sit\" better in certain mixes. EQing each section separately gives a little more fine tune EQ than doing the whole mix but even the whole mix can be done with pleasing results.

Coarse Tune. I found that one can layer the different short bows of the violins detuned to create even more attacks of the other sections and to get special effects. I stress layering as the sound is definitely not as good as the actual samples of the section, but for attack attack variations on top of existing samples its not too shabby. down 2-3 steps works to make them sound like violas, and 5-7 like cellos. Any more for Bass.....but it does get a bit extreme sounding.

Anyone else? I know I\'m forgetting a thing or two, and I know other people have had their own experiences with controllers and have probably found other end results they like.

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[Simon Ravn]

Perhaps you can enlighten me on the \'detache layering idea\' since I dont know what it\'s about? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

About EQ\'ing I find that taking out a good chunk on violins and violas at both around 1350hz and 2900 hz (not too narrow a band), helps making the sound more \'Hollywood\'.

[KingIdiot]

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Just talking obut layering the Detaches over/under the LEG SUS instruments to add that \"expresive\" sound on top of the sustaining instruments. Its no where near the same getting longer GR Det samples, but it adds that expressive sound on top of the regular sustains.

i did try building longer multi crossfade variation ntoes in Vegas and try them out, but they loose the natural expressiveness that come with the players jsut \"playing\". Its funny too, there wasn\'t much of a \"noticable\" loop since it was multiple crossfae points, but the original sample still soudned better to my ear.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Simon Ravn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Damon:

may I ask about how many dbs you subtract from the 1350 and 2900 hz range for the strings?
Also, any EQ tips for brightening up the cello pizzicato and taking away some of the muddiness?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would take out between 6-12db at 1350 and the same at 2900hz. On \'Going In\' I had an EQ setting takeing out 12db and 10db. Sorry, no idea about the cello pizz.

[Tom Hopkins]

KingIdiot,

In the final release version the controllers are as follows:

GPC-2 Release control for Long Bows and certain other instruments (like Tremolo and Grand Detache)

GPC-5 Masking sample control for Long Bow LEG instruments

GPC-6 Wet/Dry control for Pizz and Col Legno

GPC-7 Filter control for WARM instruments

GPC-8 Length control for most short bows

Beta versions varied from this, so that might be the source of the confusion.

[KingIdiot]

wait... what library are we talking about? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

heheeee

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Really...I am an Idiot

[Haydn]

I like to break up each section into at least 3 tracks. One each for Long Bows, Short Bows, and another for pizzicato and other special articulations. This makes it much easier to layer the articulations together. Also, I can then setup the GPC controls for each type of bowing.

If you\'re not getting the sound you want - make sure you check out the GPC controls. I don\'t know of another library that gives you this kind of control over the sounds!

Tip for Maestro Tools:

When using auto-alternating bowing, make sure you insert the Bb1 (Bb0 depending on setup) key where you want the auto-alternating to stop. Failure to do this will cause every other note to not play on non-alternating patches.

[Damon]

I realized why the cello pizz was sounding muddy. It was because I had the GPC 6 controller set to WET along with the NFX reverb. When I set the GPC to DRY, the pizz stands out more.
One of the many cool features included with this library http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif.
Also, can I still use other sounds in Gigastudio when using Maestro Tools (I don\'t mean play other sounds and have Maestro Tools do stuff to them, I just mean play other sounds in general.)? The reason I ask this is because I have a \'template\' stored in Giga as a setup for my songs that loads in a metronom on Gigas track 2 to play as a click track on track 2 in Cakewalk. Will I still be able to hear this even though I have to change the Delta driver to the Marble Sound driver?

[This message has been edited by Damon (edited 09-18-2001).]

[Haydn]

You should have no problems playing other sounds through the MarbleSound driver. Just make sure the the MIDI channels are disabled in the MaestroTools utility for the port you\'re using if you don\'t want MaestroTools to effect it. All channels should be set to bypass by default. I leave everything bypassed and only uncheck the channels I\'m using for the strings. We have found that you can use the Mono mode for other libraries though.

[Damon]

Thanks Hadyn.

[Tom Hopkins]

KingIdiot,

Good suggestions. One thing: The final version of the library uses GPC-2, not GPC-1, for release control (when applicable). While it does control the length of the \"decay\" of the note when the key is released, the parameter actually being controlled is the release envelope. \"Decay\" is a different parameter and is employed in other instruments to control things like note length and wet/dry ratios. I just thought I\'d clarify that.

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Ravn:
About EQ\'ing I find that taking out a good chunk on violins and violas at both around 1350hz and 2900 hz (not too narrow a band), helps making the sound more \'Hollywood\'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Simon, since your demos always seem to be first class http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif, may I ask about how many dbs you subtract from the 1350 and 2900 hz range for the strings?
Also, any EQ tips for brightening up the cello pizzicato and taking away some of the muddiness?

[KingIdiot]

yah but doesn\'t GPC-1 control the Decay length of the short bows.

GPC-2 controls release of the long bows, and GPC-5 the attack

checking... Bah... GPC-2 :P

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

IIf I REALLY want to make them longer without editing I load the Gr det instrument onto two different channels then copy the string line to both chanels, delay one a beat or two, shorten all notes a beat or two to match up with the delay, then, cross fade the delayed line in. You can also edit the instrument to have a long attack and use the long attck one on the delayed line for a near automatic crossfade.

As for Layering I use the corresponding EXP instrument. So for 1st violin gr detache Iuse 1st violin SUS EXP. With layering you dont gt the same sound as the gr detache, since they sound a bit thinner, but I \"feather it in\" on top of the SUS EXP so that it jsut \"peaks out\" and gives the line some extra charcter/vibrato..

Using the CC control 11 (expression) for volume to match any Mod Wheel changes in the SUS instrument helps but isn\'t too realistic so I try and save the layering only for louder passages.

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Another tip/trick that I might put in its own thread in some time...

I bought a Roland Guitar Synth and am falling in love with GOS all over again.

I\'m hoping to divide the Sul G/D samples to their own instruments again and output specific strings on my guitar to different MIDI channels to get \"realistic\" fingering.

Now, Gary, when you do do some updates to GOS, I\'ll want all strings sampled to full range :P MWAHAHAHAHAHA

Using the guitar controller helps for two reasons. Its a striged instrument so I play the samples more like they instruments were intended to be played.
and second,...I play gujitar, It makes a big difference for one to compose and play an instrument they ACTUALLY know how to play.

I\'m thinking of getting a Breath controller to control the expression parts of the SUS EXP instrument...

Soon I will look like some freak monster everytime I sit to compose http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif Cables hanging off everywhere.. Computer monitors on at all side.. Fans whirring.....\"Its alive... ITS ALIVE!!!\"

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[Robert Kral]

Careful there, Kingidiot, you just might give Garry some ideas, like....the world\'s first midi vioin. (Imagine the thrill a violin player would have playing violin as per usual but hearing a full string section instead!).

For all I know Garry might be onto this...he did invent the midi harp!!

[Jeff Hurchalla]

I\'ll see if I can add a beta feature to Maestro in the next few days to let you extend the length of Grand Detache and other instruments. You would have to load the same instrument on two channels (much as KingIdiot was talking about) and if a note sustained long enough, Maestro would automatically start the same note on the second channel and crossfade into it. I already programmed something quite similar when we were testing out possible legato approaches - I think it\'s apparent we chose a different method, but it shouldn\'t be too tough to add the same code with changes to accomplish something different. No promises - it\'ll be something to try out and see if it works and can be put to any good use.

On another note, I\'ve already added a beta feature that allows changeable intonation (in the key of C only). This one works, but it doesn\'t seem it can be put to good use. It imposes the limitation that it can only be used in mono(vs. polyphonic) mode for any channel, and that the same instrument on a channel has to be loaded into every available port for that channel. If it seems hard to follow what I mean, that should reinforce the feeling I have that this is (by necessity) user-unfriendly and most likely will not make it out of beta. That said, if you set it up right and can live with limitations, it allows you to play a sequenced piece of multiple mono lines with a changeable intonation in the key of C - with pitch wheel centered, all notes are in equal tempered; as you move the pitch wheel up (or to the right) the temperament slowly and dynamically changes toward pythagorean intonation, eventually reaching exact pythagorean inton. when the pitch wheel is fully extended; with the pitch wheel down (or to the left) the intonation changes toward just intonation. It\'s would be for the intrepid or curious to try out - I meant it as an experiment, and while it worked, it\'s too demanding to setup and imposes too much limitation to be satisfying for me. The results of the experiment - as I\'d expected, pythagorean intonation sounded quite good in a chord of C-E-G and also with B-D-G. When I played with pitch wheel neutral - equal temperament - I was surprised to find these chords (played from the same midi file) comparitively seemed like they were slightly out of tune. Most surprising of all is that I expected just intonation on these chords to provide a feeling of \'being at rest\' perhaps suited to the final chords in a piece or in some cadences. Instead it seemed these chords (which lasted about 6 seconds each) were quite out of tune to my ears. Strange, considering that JI is all perfect intervals for both these chords in the key of C. My guess is that the consonance of the 3rd is too weak to make much of a difference in perceived consonance when the 3rd differs slightly from the perfect ratio (5/4). So it may be more the training of the ear that determines what position of the third sounds most in tune (?) I\'m not sure though. For anyone interested, the research I\'ve read shows players of the violin family tend to play somewhere between equal temp and pythagorean intonation, and of course it\'s changeable at any moment. Interestingly, I even read an anecdote about one of the conductors of a major orchestra(no idea of the name) who was having to tell his players numerous times to play the 3rds in sustained chords much sharper- specifically he was not leading them toward a just intonation, instead he was probably trying to get a sound that happens to resemble pythagorean intonation. In any event, my belief that orchestras tend to play between equal temp and pythagorean led to the experiment with getting Maestro to do changeable intonation.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Hurchalla (edited 10-03-2001).]

[Damon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Hurchalla:
I\'ll see if I can add a beta feature to Maestro in the next few days to let you extend the length of Grand Detache and other instruments.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Jeff, that would be great! I love the SusVlns EXP for fast and medium tempo passages, but for slow passages, the grand detaches really sound fantastic because of the slower attacks on them and any way to increase the length of them would be nice.
Cheers

[ursatz]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Hurchalla:
I\'ll see if I can add a beta feature to Maestro in the next few days to let you extend the length of Grand Detache and other instruments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The madness continues!!! Jeff, that sounds fantastic - I really hope it works. I\'ve been doing the two-tracks-staggered thing with the detache patches, and though it works, it\'s tedious. You probably know where you can find some testers, if you need them!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>On another note, I\'ve already added a beta feature that allows changeable intonation (in the key of C only).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is something I\'d be **very** interested in, and it wouldn\'t matter to me if it were clumsy to use. (The alternatives I can think of are all close-to-impossible, so \"clumsy\" would be a huge improvement!) For anyone who is interested in alternative tunings, this would be a magnificent feature.

[KingIdiot]

WOW Jeff you read my mind I was going to suggest this as a feature in Maestro but Thought you guys had other things to worry about I have another suggestion that I\'ve been toying with, but it will more than likely eat too much poly it has to do with pitch bends and crossfading between coarse tuned samples to retain a \"near\" consistant formant. For 2 semitones it wouldn\'t take too much, but more and it gets crazy.. unless of course its programmed to \"trigger\" a sample and pitch it differently. I\'ll see if I can throw together a MIDI file soon that shows you what I\'m thinking and some ways around mking it too much of a poly hog.

BTW...I\'ve been using my guitar synth to do sme really realistic sliding with the right attack and releaase settings... If we could get some sort of quick portamento effect in Mono mode I\'d be in heaven...(you should hear the way choirs sound now)


As for the intonation thing.. You\'re crazy I want to see!! having something like that around would be truely amazing...if its user unfriendly maybe you can put it in as an \"easter egg\"? Stating that its an \"as is\" part of the app and that no customer support for it exists? It sounds pretty amazing and I\'m really interested in it. I\'ve been toyign with the idea of going in and tuning each instrument to \"just\" as a seperate instrumetn, but having realtime control?...WOW! You\'re as insane as Gary and Tom!

Next you\'re going to put in pre existing Mod wheel Envelopes for pre existing \"feels\" and swells


Robet- Yes a Midi Violin similar to a Z-tar and a Midi Bow recording pressure sensitivity would be amazing. In fact jsut the Bow would be amazing, expesially for this library.

think of it a GSP peformance loaded with many/all the variations of a particular section, and buttons on the bow to change articulations and pressure sensitivity to tranlate to mod wheel data, While triggering note-ons with the keyboard or another MIDI input device....oh...and then I woke up http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
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Really...I am an Idiot


[This message has been edited by KingIdiot (edited 10-03-2001).]

[Robert Kral]

Jeff strikes back!!!!

Great to hear from you Jeff and yes I\'d be VERY keen to get my hands on any utility or upgrade that automatically staggers the grand detache to make them longer!!

This is the library that keeps on giving!

[Robert Kral]

King-not-so-much-of-an-idiot:

Could you tell us which long bow violins you use to layer most effectively with the Grand Detache?

I\'ve said it many places elsewhere on the Forum and I\'ll say it again, the Grand Detaches are fantastic. I\'ve experimented a little with layering them to make them longer when needed and was wondering what your choice was.

[PatS]

OK, you GPC wizards: How on earth do you control the GPC faders while reading a score? What\'s your secret? Do you just memorize the parts? (Maybe you have the binocular eyes of a chameleon.) And what do you do if your right hand is playing the notes and your left is adjusting the Mod wheel? Do move the mouse with your foot? (P.D.Q. Bach\'s Sonata \"Abassoonata\" springs to mind.) http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

Pat (still trying to pat his head and rub his stomach)

[Haydn]

I usually touch up the GPC controllers after recording the performance. Just unable to do it realtime plus I don\'t have enough faders on my keyboard.

[KingIdiot]

With ELgato Loens GPC control is an after thought, but still sometimes better in realtime,...jsut recording OVER the already recorded performance. then touch it up in a sequencer.

for Short bows, Real Time record/control can be done tho http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif The decay control helps a bit.

Still I find its sometimes nice to go over the already recorded performance...
especially with me using a guitar controlelr now http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif y plan is to get a Breath Contoller as ell, and merge the brath control with the slight vibrato I can get with guitar strings...wheeeee http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Frankenstein 2000 makes music....atleast thats waht I\'ll look like with all the wires coming out of me http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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[dnortana]

KingIdiot,
Please send us a picture of you performing all these various instruments at the same time !
I imagine that you and I could make a lot of money on the streets of New York, if you look as I expect. Well, not me, exactly, but my pet monkey with the little red suit and tin cup http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif
Regards,
Trond

[KingIdiot]

I guess I know what to be for Holloween, eh? http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

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Really...I am an Idiot

[KingIdiot]

Posted by Tom Hopkins:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As promised, here\'s one more tutorial. This one explores changing attack envelope values on the more complex LEG instruments. LEG instruments use short masking samples (activated by the sustain pedal along with MaestroTools) to create smoother transitions between notes during legato lines. Every sustain sample has a corresponding masking sample located 4 octaves above the sustain sample (folding back to the bottom of the keyboard when we run out of real estate.) Changing attack envelope values for the masking samples is easily achieved and that will be the first procedure below. Changing the attack envelope values for the sustain samples is more problematic and must be approached with caution. For the masking sample attack envelopes:
1. Open the Instrument Editor
2. Load 1st Violins Long Bows 1.
3. Click on the second instrument in the instrument list on the left, \"1st Vln SusV LEG,\" to make it active.
4. Choose \"EG1 attack time\" from the list just above the keyboard display.
5. Just to the left of the \"EG1 attack time\" are a minus and a plus sign. Click on the minus symbol until you can see all regions from the bottom of the keyboard to the top. Notice that there are three groups of sample regions, one at the bottom (G#-1 to C1), one in the middle (G3 to C7), and one at the top (G7 to G9). The regions in the middle are the sustain samples. The regions at the top and bottom are the matching masking samples. They continue up until they run out of keyboard room and then break back to the bottom (the bottom group of regions).
6. Highlight the bottom group of regions by placing your cursor just to the left of the first region, hold the left mouse button down and drag to the right across the bottom regions, then release the left mouse button. The bottom regions should turn yellow indicating that they have been selected. Now hold down the \"control\" button of the computer keyboard and place your cursor just to the left of the top group of regions, hold the left mouse button down and drag to the right across the top regions, release the left mouse button and then release the \"control\" button. Both the bottom regions and the top regions should now be yellow. The center regions should remain white.
7. Go to the velocity box just below and to the left of the regions. There are 4 velocity segments. Click on the top segment, hold the left mouse button down and drag your cursor down to the bottom segment and release the left mouse button. All velocity segments should now be green indicating that they have been selected.
8. Left click on any one of the blue balls near the bottom of the selected regions and drag up while holding the left button down. Once again, all the blue balls should move as a unit. Moving the balls up will increase (slow) the attack time of the masking samples and moving them down will decrease (speed up) the attack time of the masking samples. For slower attacks try values between .210 and .420 to start.
9. When you find a setting you like, try it in conjunction with GPC-5.
10. Save.


Now, back to the sustain samples. Try this:

1. Use the procedures described above to highlight just the middle group of regions. These are the sustain samples.
2. Make sure \"EG1 attack time\" is still selected above the keyboard.
3. This time activate only the top velocity segment in the velocity box by clicking on it. This is the forte layer. Notice that not all regions have identical attack envelope values (some blue balls are in different positions). Each of the layers (except for mp) has regions that depart from the norm. This was the result of note-by-note tailoring of envelope slopes between the masking samples and the sustain samples to achieve the most transparent integration between them. Adjusting these envelopes was one of several steps to achieve the best integration. And herein lies the problem of making changes to these values: You could easily make changes that would destroy the integration. So, it would be wise to follow the previous tutorial instructions on extracting a single instrument and work from the resultant copy. That way if you make a mess of things you haven\'t done any damage to the original file.
4. I suggest that you make adjustments one velocity layer at a time for this experiment.
5. Follow the same procedures already outlined to adjust the attack envelopes.

It should be clear by now that if it is at all possible try to achieve the desired results using adjustments to the masking samples rather than the sustain samples. Happy experimenting.

[KingIdiot]

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Really...I am an Idiot