Is Windows really that lame?

[Simon Ravn]

Being a former Amiga freak, I can\'t help getting a weird feeling each time I hear people saying that \'installing games and lots of programs on your PC makes it slower. Install nothing but Giga on it\' etc.... Why the h*ll will installing programs make it SLOWER? Is Windows really THAT lame? Afterall, the few entries in the registry should be all that has to be in memory (unless it is only accessed when using the relevant application/game) that could \'slow things down\'. And, the registry entries belonging to a specific application is, AFAIK, only accessed when the app. boots up or shuts down or does some changes to it. E.g. the only reg. entry for a game would be a path to where games are saved or such. How and WHY on EARTH should that be able to interfere with Gigastudio or other programs? And DLL\'s.... are only accessed when the relevant program needs it. And for programs overwriting DLL\'s with its own versions, that should only be able to result in crashing or applications not working. Not applications performing worse. And if that DLLs was that much of a problem, why don\'t programs like Gigastudio only use DLL\'s stored in its own dir (maybe it does)?. Well ... I must say, it\'s hard to believe that Windows is so badly put together compared to good old AmigaOS.... So please tell me that I am wrong, and all that talk about installing many programs on your system makes it slower etc is just nonsense.

Simon


BTW sorry about the doubleposting.

[tripit]

Yes it is lame.

[BOBBY T]

Simon,

On a very simple level, the defragmentation of data stored on a local drive, as well as the increase of gluttony in data stored, does contribute to the overall \"slowing down\" of a Windows-based system.

The actual placement location of the program data on the physical drive contributes to the amount of time it takes for data to be read, and the larger the drive, the more data stored on that drive, contributes as well. Data stored at the front of a drive takes less time for the heads to access than if it were stored in the middle or \"back\". Add defragmentation to this, and performance does suffer to varying degrees.

Perhaps the members of this learned forum do not fall victim to such \"basic level\" ailments in their respective systems, but to a newcomer to Windows, that may or may not know these simple things, it could serve as helpful information.

Also remember that Windows\' swap file (virtual memory), it\'s size and implementation, plays an integral part in overall performance as well.

Lastly, RAM, and the amount of it, is another crucial factor in any scenario, but especially in this arena. Always get as much as you can!!!!

Hope this helps...
(From a former Amiga/Atari user)

[Simon Ravn]

Fragmentation of the stuff on your HD should NOT interfere with e.g. the performance of Gigastudio. How much your Quake 3 or your MS Encarta is fragmented on your HD should have NO effect on GS. Not even GS being fragmented should, as the program is just stored in RAM \'forever\' when it\'s loaded. Of course if you put a lot of .gig\'s on your HD, deletes, puts other on etc etc. the files will get more and more fragmented. But that\'s not what I am talking about.

[Simon Ravn]

And oh.... my swapfile is not in use. I have set it to a fixed value (128MB) at another HD than my gigs use and I have 640MB RAM, so I can\'t see why my swapfile would be used before I fill up that or at least somewhere in that nieghbourhood.

[Simon Ravn]

And oh.... my swapfile is not in use. I have set it to a fixed value (128MB) at another HD than my gigs use and I have 640MB RAM, so I can\'t see why my swapfile would be used before I fill up that or at least somewhere in that nieghbourhood.

[Jamieh]

I think the bigger problem is that new applications (especially games) will replace existing .DLL\'s and install new multimedia drivers, and this can cause problems with GigaStudio. GigaStudio does seem to be remarkably succeptable to system changes, so I try not to mess with my setup. I stongly advocate getting something like Partition Magic and setting your machine to dual boot--one partition for GigaStudio, one for everything else.

[Bill]

I think it’s the Windows interface that gets slower, which give the perception that Windows is slower. The more things that are installed, the more complex the layout of folders and files; the more complex the registry. Thus, when you click on a menu / right click on something, more information must be gathered/verified before the menu is displayed. This gives the impression that Windows has slowed down. Once you’re in GSt, I don’t think it maters much.

One thing recommended though, is to keep you C:\\Window\\Temp folder cleaned out. These left over files tend to cause trouble.

[tripit]

A simple thing, but one that some might over look:
I have two configurations set up, allowing me to pick either one on boot up. One is set for giga, with everything not needed by giga shut off, and the other is set for regular use. This really helps a lot.

[LHong]

Well, the bottom line is that we want to push the windows works best for Giga as much as it could. I figured-out that in order to get instantly 160 voice-polyphony based on a system 800~1000Mhz@512MB with 32MB-video and fast-HDrive, good GSIF driver, windows must uses about 75~85% resources. I don\'t know much how DLL\'s being organized (wins98/Me), but reality each applications would takes about 2~10% of system-resources such MS-offices, Video-ulilities, games, internets, etc, even windows-Explorer file-browser would takes 2% (when you open it, before/after). And each percents of them would gives giga about 2 voice-polyphony, is it funny?
Just a reference, very first time right after you boot the windows, chech the system-performance (under My-Computer, property), you should see about 95~98% available resource, if not, your system is not best tuned for the Giga. You might run msconfig to remove the stuff from the start-up. Bill is right, the C:\\windows\\TEMP where is the temporary folder map to also very important if your disk space is issue (too low), causes some problems. So if you have about more than 1GB for it then it should be fine and basically it will be automatically self-clean after you quit the apps or re-start windows but never be very clean, will be added up more later like windows is not shutdown properly...And might be that is where the Giga and other apps put the sampler-swapping-space to it?
Anyway, I\'m so busy now. Last comments about it is when you have about 120 voice-polyphony with hi-quality at multiple output channels (8~16 CH) from gigastudio, which is used about 50~60% CPU, you should be happy!
My two-cent,
Long\'s Studio

[SteveMitchell]

But you\'re making the assumption that \"Resources\" implies available RAM, where the truth of the matter is that it has nothing to do with how much RAM you have. You\'re seeing the average of the available GDI and USER resources expressed as a percentage. The GDI memory heap contains memory for logical pens, logical brushes, logical fonts, bitmaps, and palettes. The USER heap contains logical handlers which represent menus and window handles.

The main thing you should be concerned with here is the number of programs loaded that are ACTIVE (besides GSt), and the amount of RAM in your machine. Anti-virus programs with realtime monitoring, are the worst. Benign programs like systray, or the pre-loading index file for Quicken shouldn\'t affect the way the OS works as far as speed. Unused programs or INACTIVE programs are mostly swapped out to disk, so they\'re not using precious physical RAM. And RAM, BTW, is cheaper now than it\'s EVER been per meg. Get more!

Steve Mitchell
The Classical MIDI Resource (\"http://www.classicalmidiresource.com\")
The CMR Players (\"http://www.mp3.com/cmrplayers\")

[Simon Ravn]

Well I have yet to max out my 640MB RAM, and I can hardly get more in my machine without resorting to expensive 512MB modules. And no, I don\'t have a lot of tasks (Amiga/Linux language here) running. Only my soundcard shell, the soundmixer shell and my gfx card shell. No virus programs, firewalls, MS office, optimizers or other crap. And I still can\'t see, LHong, how a game that you have installed could take up 2% of your CPU time when it is not running or any task of it isn\'t running either. I\'m sorry but under a good OS (like AmigaOS) this is no problem and it shouldn\'t be. There\'s no logical explanation for why a program that your OS is not currently running would take up any system resources at all. But of course, maybe Windows IS just that lame, as the topic of the thread says.

There is one thing that seemed to give me some poly boost though, I think Chadwick mentioned this, namely turning off USB in BIOS.

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Yeah the DLLs could cause PROBLEMS... but performance degration? That should not be possible! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should not be possible, but I HAVE seen it happen. That is why so many people want a Win2000 version of Gigastudio. It is leaps and bounds better than the Win 95/98 series.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 02-07-2001).]

[Simon Ravn]

Yeah the DLLs could cause PROBLEMS... but performance degration? That should not be possible! Maybe GS won\'t work at all anymore but then you can just install it again, and you have it running again. Besides, if software developers recognize this as a problem they should use their own DLL files only...

[Joris Vincken]

Win 2000 has exactly the same problem as win 9x. It slows down after a while.

[Jamieh]

Not that I have seen. I\'m a software guy, and since I switched over to Win 2000 last summer, my machines at work have hummed along perfectly. I almost never need to reboot, and I haven\'t had any of the slowdown issues that I saw on the Win9x platform.

Win 2000 is tons better. Windows XP is supposed to be based of the Win 2000 kernel, so it should be good too.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 02-08-2001).]

[LHong]

Dear Simon Ravn,
you wrote:
\"...And I still can\'t see, LHong, how a game that you have installed could take up 2% of your CPU time when it is not running or any task of it isn\'t running either...\"

You are right, I can\'t see what\'s going on in windows either! However, there could really be a lot of activities in the back-ground to keep the system very stable based-on the local-configuration and registry-register, for example. We don\'t want to discuss what is right or wrong, again the bottom line is that we want the system works best for Giga and must be very stable too, right? It\'s truth that some ways you can tweak the CPU works harder (more CPU cycles) but the downside is that system will be less stable (Sometimes it could causes hung-up, crashed, etc).

I might have a solution for you, how dare you want to try it? just kidding! Sure, I\'m talking about to modify/add stuff in the windows-registry, who want to try it? it might increases the Giga-polyphony about 35~75%, but must be taken your own risk, OK! my system might crashed once because of it! warning!!! Make sure you backup your last works before to try it, that\'s all.

Here we are:
(For Windows 9x/ME ONLY)
\"Run Regedit and go to:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\System\\CurrentControlSet\\Ser vices\\VxD\\BIOS
-> In the right hand pane create a new DWORD Value called \"CPUPriority\" (no quotes)
-> double-click on it
-> check the Decimal box -> type 1 -> click OK to save.
To reset to default-Windows 9x/ME, type 3.
To see your system\'s real time performance type 0 (NOT recommended by Microsoft!).
Make sure there is a Plug and Play BIOS in system-property. One more thing if this setup doesn\'t effect at all, go to the BIOS-setup, turn off the APM \"BIOS power management feature\", also in the control-pannel: Power-setting, set the power-scheme = always-on; turn-off hard-disk = never; system standby = never.

Meaning for this:
\"CPUPriority\" DWORD valid Decimal values:
0 = The foreground (active) app/game is assigned exclusive CPU cycles (real time priority). WARNING: Use with caution!
1 = All open apps/games (foreground and background) benefit from a few more CPU cycles than loaded Win32 TSRs/DLLs/Runtimes/APIs.
2 = All open apps/games (foreground and background) benefit from even more CPU cycles than loaded Win32 TSRs/DLLs/Runtimes/APIs.
3 = All apps/games/TSRs/DLLs/Runtimes/APIs share same CPU cycles (default, same as \"CPUPriority\" absent from Registry).

Hope this helps, let me know how this works for your Gigastudio system.
Regards,
Long


[This message has been edited by LHong (edited 02-14-2001).]