the best piano under giga

[chilcote.9]

Hey,

A question we have all pondered, but....
I\'ve checked out almost all the pianos out there under giga, and have come to the conclusion that the steinway B(930mb), and gigapiano(~600mb) are the only completely well rounded solutions. I know this is an arbitrary question, but do others agree with this?

I find the trachtman(1gb and 2gb), and bosendorfer pianos absolutely amazing in their programming, but disappointing in the balance, tonal qualities, and real playability. Come on, 2gb..... this is sample bloat in the extreme, it is not really playable currently. There are other 32,64,128 mb pianos out there, but none have the depth and realism of the Gigapiano(~600mb), and Steinway B(930mb).

Of course I still play a real steinway and real yamaha because the sample libraries do completely cut it all the time.

Do others feel this way or not, for all solutions or what works for you?

peace,

[gigagagga]

Just thought I would mention that the East West steinway B sample is also about 1.8 gigs worth of data. It is compressed and gets uncompressed as you play it.

what makes the other pianos so \"unplayable\"

Giga...

[Mr. Chance]

I don\'t like Gigapiano, I find the sample switching crude.

[seclusion]

I\'m just sooooo glad to rid myself of the roland \"piano\" samples.. Arrggg..
I haven\'t heard anything as nice as the gigapiano so far... I feel so spoiled..
What a life saver...
My wife can even hear the diff.. She\'s not very musically inclined..
B

[Van Sotraidis]

I\'ve been happy with the sound of the Gigapiano, but agree about the poor sample switching between velocity layers. I was working on a piece over the weekend and encountered problems with this. A velocity of 91 was too soft for a note, so I attempted to edit the velocity and increase it. Setting it to 92 switched the sample to the next velocity layer and was WAY too loud. http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/mad.gif Has anyone tried to smooth out these switch points using velocity filering?

I\'ve never heard the east-west St. B. I do a lot of ballad type stuff, so pedal-down resonance, tone, response, and clarity are most important to me. I would interested in knowing if anyone feels that one of the other pianos is better in this area.

Thanks very much!! http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
Van Sotraidis
http://www.mp3.com/VANMUSIC (\"http://www.mp3.com/VANMUSIC\")

(check out my first published composition using Gigastudio/Gigapiano called Dancing in Avalon at my website!)

[gigagagga]

Van,
If you like the Gigapiano you will love the steinway B it is worlds ahead of gigapiano in playability and tone.

I would like to hear a review of the Holy grail piano for giga... anyone have it?

giga...

[Doug Marshall]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gigagagga:
I would like to hear a review of the Holy grail piano for giga... anyone have it?

giga...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who makes the Holy grail piano? I missed that one.

Some months ago there was a thread describing how to apply filters to make the Bosendorfer better. I don\'t remember the name of the thread but a search for \"darkendorfer\" might unearth it. There was considerable positive response about the results. Someone also applied the technique to the Gigapiano and liked it.

Of the pianos I\'ve tried I like the Steinway B the best, overall. But all the pianos seem to have a problem with diminuendo: as you play more softly the body drops out of the sound and important lines are not properly heard. The response isn\'t quite right--a limitation due to the relatively small number of sampled velocities, perhaps.

[Chadwick]

Hey Doug,

That extreme drop off in level is probablya function of the choice of velocity curve and velocity sensitivity settings for the soft dimensions.

I\'ve got to agree that, for me, the most uncomfortable thing about most sampled pianos is the response at lower velocities. It\'s usually pretty ragged.

[gigagagga]

Holy Grail Piano is distrubted by QupArts and is available @ their web site quparts.com. I am looking for a review of the gigasampler version and it\'s about $299.00

giga...

[Doug Marshall]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:


That extreme drop off in level is probablya function of the choice of velocity curve and velocity sensitivity settings for the soft dimensions.

I\'ve got to agree that, for me, the most uncomfortable thing about most sampled pianos is the response at lower velocities. It\'s usually pretty ragged.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My theory is that most people rarely play softly anyway (either designers or users), so this area doesn\'t get a lot of attention. There is a saying regarding pipe organs that may be apropos here: \"A pipe organ is never finished--it\'s just finally abandoned.\" These Giga instruments are so enormous and complex it\'s not surprising they\'re imperfect in some respects--but I think they could definitely be better than they are.

[Synth2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:
Hey Doug,

That extreme drop off in level is probablya function of the choice of velocity curve and velocity sensitivity settings for the soft dimensions.

I\'ve got to agree that, for me, the most uncomfortable thing about most sampled pianos is the response at lower velocities. It\'s usually pretty ragged.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi there Chadwick,

Have you had a chance to try out the Malmsjo acoustic grand by Artvista? They put a lot of effort into capturing the micro-velocities (ppp, pp etc). I\'ve found it really nice for subtle and soft piano lines, although it does have a different sound to it for sure when compared to the Steinway-B, Bosendorfer or even the original Gigapiano. We have a review up on Sonic Control of the Malmsjo if you\'ve missed it.

Ryan.




------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[Chadwick]

Thanks Ryan,

I got a chance to check the Malmsjo files out on purgatorycreek.com, and must say you\'re right about their \'real\' vibe.

The mics seem to be further away from the piano than the other digital grands.

On the softer velocities the Malmsjo gets warm and gentle, whereas other digitals seem to simply sound like the same tone \'further away\' - even the Steinway B.

It\'d be a great piano for older jazz stuff.

[Chadwick]

Hey Doug,

The Holy Grail Piano has been mp3\'d at www.purgatorycreek.com (\"http://www.purgatorycreek.com\")

If you haven\'t been there it\'s a fantastic resource where the guy has put up a single dynamic piece of music, played on his favourite Steinway, and then played a midi file into a range of digital pianos and converted the results to MP3. You can download files for just about any sampled piano you might be interested in.

A great idea

[Doug Marshall]

Thanks, Chadwick. I\'ll check it out. - Doug

[Hans Adamson]

Doug,

Bill Busch has done a fantastic job in creating the \'Digital Piano Shoot-out\'. It is very comprehensive, and covers practically every digitized piano there is.

However, you have to keep in mind, that all demos where created with the same MIDI-file. Some of the pianos are going to be perfectly matched to this sequence, others are going to be less suitable to use with this particular MIDI-sequence. The sample which was used when creating the sequence is going to be the best matched of them all.

The particular MIDI-sequence used in the shoot-out has an average velocity value above 100. It contains only a handful of notes with velocity values below 50. So the velocity spread is relatively narrow, and centered at the top of velocity spectrum.

Any sampled piano that responds well to these characteristics will give a better impression in the test.

Try also Warren Trachtman\'s piano shootout. I am pretty sure that his sequences are created using a different sample.

Hans

[David Pogorelec]

I know the \"piano purists\" will cringe at this one, but I have found that a combination of the Malmsjo Acoustic Grand, plus the Steinway B, sounds pretty cool. It takes a considerable amount of work to get a finished product, but you first have to \"decompress\" all of the samples to Wave Files using the GigaStudio \"capture to wave\" feature (I only did the Malmsjo). You have to do this so you can \"re-tune\" the samples between the pianos. An electronic piano tuner helps the tuning effort. You next rebuild the 2 instruments using the wave files. Then be prepared to do a lot of wave editing. When you play this \"massive combo\" it beats the hard drive with I/O, but with proper sustain pedaling, its playable. My next phase of this project is to re-capture the combined waves to separate files (again using \"capture to wave\" feature) and then remap them to a single instrument. Because the samples belong to two vendors, this \"new\" piano can only be for your personal use, and never be made available for sale. I wish the two vendors would collaborate and make a professional version of this available for sale!

[Synth2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chadwick:
Thanks Ryan,

I got a chance to check the Malmsjo files out on purgatorycreek.com, and must say you\'re right about their \'real\' vibe.

The mics seem to be further away from the piano than the other digital grands.

On the softer velocities the Malmsjo gets warm and gentle, whereas other digitals seem to simply sound like the same tone \'further away\' - even the Steinway B.

It\'d be a great piano for older jazz stuff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chadwick,

I\'ve been using it for a bit of jazz stuff here and there and in fact it works great! They include a \"rock grand\" with it that has the forte layers EQ\'d for more kick that works well.

I still find that most of the sampled pianos are lacking in the forte layers. I really like to pound at my keys and most of them don\'t give me the sound that I\'m used to for triple forte and beyond. Especially when you attack the keys from a distance for forte as opposed to not attacking from a distance for forte. On a real piano, hitting the keys from a distance produces a very different forte sound as opposed to not attacking the keys from a distance. I\'m not sure when they sampled the original Gigapiano, Steinway or Bosendorfer which method was used for the forte samples - it would be interesting to find out. Unfortunately really pounding at the keys on many of the sampled pianos gives you the same sound as \"sort of\" pounding at the keys. I would love to see a sample that could somehow have both types of forte!

Ryan.



------------------
Sonic Control
www..com (\"http://www..com\")
Giga Users Network at
www..com/gigasampler/ (\"http://www..com/gigasampler/\")

[seedee701]

i\'m wondering if anyone has tried to combine the release-samples of the giga-piano (is this the only piano that has releas-samples for staccato playing?) with another piano sound (e.g. boesendorfer)

how can this be done?

thanx for any thoughts and help

seedee701

[seedee701]

However, you have to keep in mind, that all demos where created with the same MIDI-file. Some of the pianos are going to be perfectly matched to this sequence, others are going to be less suitable to use with this particular MIDI-sequence. ...

Hans[/B][/QUOTE]


hi hans

you mentioned sequences that match the sound of a gig. piano

how would you try to optimise the midi-sequence to match the sound of a piano? do you follow a specific stragedy? do you have experience with the boesendorfer?

chris

[Hans Adamson]

Chris,

The best way to match the midi-sequence with a sample is to record the sequence with the particular sample.

Sometimes it is not possible, because you have to use an already existing sequence with a new sample.

Take a look in GigaSampler Editor and see where the sample\'s split points are between different velocity layers. Then go into your sequencers editor and try to get an idea of how the velocity values are distributed. Somehow you want to have the midi velocity values that represent forte/fortissimo to trigger your sample\'s top velocity layer. At the same time you would like to have the midi velocity values that represent piano/pianissimo to trigger the softest layer. You also would want the midi velocity values in between the two extremes to trigger the middle layer/s.

I will give you an example:

I was sent the midi-file used in \"The Digital Piano Shootout\". I had asked to see it in advance, to determine if it would work with the \'Malmsjö Acoustic Grand\', which I am the producer of.

It turned out that the midi-sequence would not suit the sample very well. Because of its high average velocity values it would practically only trigger the top velocity layer (out of four layers). I asked that the midi-file would have its velocity output lowered -30. This would lower the average velocity output from 100 to 70, around where the loudest velocity layer begins in the Malmsjö sample. This way also some of the quieter samples were triggered.

In a perfect adaption you would also have to expand the midi velocity spectrum. This can be difficult, unless your sequencing software allows very modest settings of expansion.

Another approach would be to alter your instruments velocity split points, so that the sample would better play back the sequence. In this case you would have to open the instrument in the editor, select all keys (the drawing of a piano keyboard), grab the split-point line between the windows representing velocity layers and move it upwards or downwards, depending on whitch layer you want to extend. If you first click the button \"Etc.\" at the top row, you can there chose to have the velocity number for where each layer starts displayed in the velocity window. This way you will have a better idea of how much you are moving the split-point.

It is also a good idea to do the experimenting on a copy of the instrument, or at least write down the values that you are about to change. Sooner or later you will probably want to return to the original settings.

Hans

[WTrachtman]

========================
i\'m wondering if anyone has tried to combine the release-samples of the giga-piano (is this the only piano that has releas-samples for staccato playing?) with another piano sound (e.g. boesendorfer)how can this be done?
thanx for any thoughts and help
=========================

Since about October last year, I have had release samples for my Steinway-C piano available as a free downloadable add-on file at: http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/addons/index.htm (\"http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/addons/index.htm\")
This is a layer add-on and instructions are on that same page.
While you can try using it with other pianos, I doubt it will work successfully. Mixing the release samples from any piano with the normal strike samples from any other piano is likely to sound wrong for a list of reasons too long to enumerate here.

While I\'m at it, I must agree with what Hans has mentioned regarding the matching of a MIDI file to a piano sample set, this is indeed a difficulty with using any demo file. A common demo can give a feel for the sound character of several of the available Gigasampler format pianos, but not the full dynamic potential. My own sample set has been designed to provide a wider dynamic range than any other gigasampler format piano by compensating for a bug in the gigasampler/gigastudio which prevents proper response for MIDI velocities below about 32.
Full details of the bug are described at: http://www.wstco.com/gigaissues/ (\"http://www.wstco.com/gigaissues/\")
This page describes issues brought to Nemesys\' attention last fall, which I have been hoping they will fix in a future update before I release any other piano versions.

If the playing from the demo does not use this range, you will never know that the other pianos are not giving you the correct response.
For this reason, I also offer to create MP3 demos of user-supplied files for evaluation.
These comparitive demos, including my own, can help you decide whether you like the tone character and ambience of the samples, but should not be considered definitive in many other respects.

Regards,

Warren Trachtman
http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds (\"http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds\")

[Chadwick]

Warren,

Has Nemesys said that they\'re going to fix the flat spots in the velocity curves and the phase summing lumps in the crossfades?

In their current Newsletter they mention a V2 improvement which allows the user to:

apply a programmable scale factor to any of the 15 existing velocity curves, giving effectively hundreds of additional velocity curves to choose from.

Would this solve the dead spots in the current velocity curves?

[SiliconAudioLabs]

I (Michael Scott) am the co-developer of the \"Grail\" along with Doug Morton, Murray Wilson, and Dianne Hofstetter.

The Grail offers release (or note off samples) as well as dynamic and interharmonic pedal down sustain. These techniques have been trademarked as Virtual Model Sampling™.

Other sensories like when first stepping on the sus pedal (swoooosh).

These clues are the things that tell us an instrument is REAL. Like when you STOP playing and lift off a key - the piano doesn\'t just STOP!!! - it goes \"ka-thunk\" and you FEEL this through the floor - and in your body.

We sampled the piano even more for THESE dynamics rather than sampling 15 - 20 -70 or 200 velo. switches that can not and never do replicate that intimacy that the piano creates for her performer.

If we told you HOW we did this you would probably go \"Aaaahhhh - Wooooww!\" as we did when we discovered and perfected this technique, but that would give away the secret. Once you heard HOW it was done I\'d bet as a musician you\'d interpolate that immediately in your mind and feel (or say) \"yeah, YEAH!!! - THAT makes total sense and I can actually \"hear\" it in my mind\'s ear\"!

I did go to the pugatory creek site and listened to the mp3 of the Grail but for some reason they compressed this bank with MASSIVE hiss?! What the HELL that came from I assure you is not our piano and emailing them purgatorycreek@home.com gets the email returned!!?!? WHAT THE F!@#% !?!? If you can get around the hiss THEY added she sounds sweet and lovely!!! : )

The Grail is EXTREMELY dynamic and caused me a great problem in actually finishing her: I COULD NOT STOP PLAYING IT without tearing myself away from the keyboard to actually finish the presets and programming!!! : )

[SiliconAudioLabs]

PS. Yes I indeed DID finish it however ! : )

[WTrachtman]

================================
Has Nemesys said that they\'re going to fix the flat spots in the velocity curves and the phase summing lumps in the crossfades?
================================

Since some email exchanges last fall, I have not had any further information about whether or not Nemesys is addressing these issues, and a few other improvements which were discussed. I made that page, and provided the test files last fall to demonstrate the bug to them, but I can\'t say where these issues are in the priority list of items Nemesys is working on. Someone from Nemesys will have to respond to that. Otherwise, we will find
out when the next version is released, and I can test the performance of that new sampling engine.


==============================
apply a programmable scale factor to any of the 15 existing velocity curves, giving effectively hundreds of additional velocity curves to choose from.

Would this solve the dead spots in the current velocity curves?
===============================

While adding the ability to vary the sensitivity of the velocity curves is a very good thing, and will improve the ability to model sounds more accurately, it is a separate issue from the compression/saturation problem in the current velocity curves. Since it is likely in the same program subroutine areas, I would certainly hope that they will fix these other bugs while they are adding the new capabilities, but I have no specific advanced information about this.


====================================
I did go to the pugatory creek site and listened to the mp3 of the Grail but for some reason they compressed this bank with MASSIVE hiss?!
=====================================

The demos at the purgatory creed site have been run through some reverb and possibly other processing which I personally find makes it more difficult to evaluate and distinguish the differences in tone and character among the various different piano sample sets.

If you want to have me add your Grail piano to the comparative demos on my own page at: http://www.wstco.net/CompareProducts.htm (\"http://www.wstco.net/CompareProducts.htm\")
please let me know.
These demos are captured directly to disk out of the Gigasampler, with absolutely no additional processing. There should be no added hiss.

Regards,

Warren Trachtman
http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/ (\"http://www.wstco.com/pianosounds/\")