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Junkmonkey
03-27-2004, 11:22 PM
Just wondering, is it really more efficient to use the harp packets? In Sonar (and probably other sequencers), you can select all notes of a given pitch, within a given range, and then transpose them. So, for instance, when I want a harp glissando in G, I just run up n\' down the keyboard, select all my F\'s and then transpose up a semi-tone.

I actually haven\'t used the packets... because... (don\'t tell)... I don\'t know how!

Maybe I\'m not doing really complex glissandi, *shrug. Just lookin for some feedback on the useablity of the packets.

- Junk

Twinset
03-28-2004, 08:37 AM
I\'ve also selected and transposed notes from within Sonar rather than use the packets. Like Junk, this was mostly because I couldn\'t see how the packets work. So would someone please let us know just how to use the harp packets?

Thanks

David

ailteoir
03-28-2004, 09:07 AM
i too would be gratefull for this information. it all looked a bit daunting to me.

slán
mick ó c

Karl Garrett
03-29-2004, 09:16 AM
Hi Guys,

I think this might have been covered in detail shortly after GPO\'s release. You might want to check back to see, but I\'ll be glad to tell you how I do it. Once you have played around with this you might find a better way.

First I create two midi tracks. Track \"a\" is for the midi harp data, track \"b\" is for the placement of the harp data packets. Make sure that each track is play enabled and set to the same midi channel where your harp lives in GPO.

Next I import the \"GlissandoHarpPackets\" midi file, in whatever way your sequencer does it. This makes a good number of midi tracks, but, the overhead on these tracks is low, and I have found that I prefer to have them all at my beckoned call rather than having to search for a specific packet in another file.

You will find these tracks sorted by key and then by scale and chord type (major, minor, minor 7th. etc.

Now, say you want to have a gliss of a \"B mi7\" extend from beat 4 of measure 1 to beat 1 of measure 2. Simply copy the harp packet named \"B mi7\", and paste it into track \"b\" just before beat 4 of measure 1.

Make sure that track \"a\" is record enabled, Then, hit the record button. When you reach beat 4, you\'re keyboard\'s pitches will have been remapped so that dragging your finger up and down it will produce a harp gliss of that chord. That\'s it. Hope I didn\'t leave anything out since I\'m a little short of time.

Once you start fooling around with this, you\'ll have about the most fun that you can with GPO. You might wake up to find that a couple of hours have gone by and all you have done is drag your finger up and down the keyboard until it smarts, trying out the various packets. But it\'s more fun than the latest computer game, and look at the calleries you will have burned. images/icons/smile.gif

Hope this helps,

Skysaw
03-29-2004, 09:38 AM
Sounds like fun. However, the only gliss I\'ve needed so far was spelled:

Cb D Eb Fb G# A# B

I assumed no packet existed for that one. images/icons/grin.gif

Twinset
03-29-2004, 10:26 AM
Thanks Karl images/icons/smile.gif

Tom Hopkins
03-29-2004, 01:57 PM
I’ve gone back and compiled some of my previous posts on this subject:

The glissando harp instruments map notes to the white keys of the keyboard. They are designed to be used with MIDI data packets to control the specific mapping of the keyboard. These packets control switches that change mapping assignments and emulate the pedal positions of the harp. This approach was introduced in Gary\'s GigaHarp library (and originally programmed for Giga by Dave Govett). The GPO library includes a MIDI data file that contains a library of MIDI packets covering a wide range of scale and chord types in all keys. I strongly recommend that the library of MIDI data packets be organized into an easy-to-access group as part of the user\'s sequencer default song file. I\'ve organized mine by key (C, C#, D, D#, E, etc.) and symmetrical scales (whole tone, diminished, augmented). Each key is placed on a separate sequencer track with all variations for a given key laid out horizontally on that track. The library tracks are always left muted because the packets are there for copying purposes only. If your sequencer allows it, place them in a folder for clarity. The packets are easy to use - just copy the packet for a particular chord/scale to a secondary track set to the same MIDI channel as the harp. Place each packet slightly in advance of the position of the desired scale or chord change. So, there are two tracks that share the same MIDI channel: the harp part is recorded to the harp track and the MIDI packets are placed as needed in the second track. Glissandi played from the keyboard will change chord/scale automatically at the packet position when the sequencer is in play/record. The white keys of the keyboard can be “strummed” to achieve realistic glissandi.

The glissando harps/MIDI packets emulate pedal positions and, in the process, add another dimension to the sound of glissandos beyond the chromatic harps. This is related to the way the harp works when creating chords and certain scales. There is a characteristic duplication of pitches on different strings depending upon harp pedal positions. For example an ascending A major chord arpeggio isn’t just the notes A, C#, E, A, C#, E, etc. when strummed with a finger. It’s more like A, A, C#, C#, E, E, E, A, A, C#, C#, E, E, E, etc. and each duplicated pitch varies a little in character because it is produced on a different string. That’s one of the main things that gives the harp its special sound on arpeggios. The glissando harps/MIDI packets emulate this effect giving the combination a very authentic sound. Now, you could try to duplicate this effect with the chromatic harps by using the same pattern of repeated pitches but you would not have the added benefit of differing character between strings that is supplied by the glissando harps.

Of course, all note data, packet choices, and packet positions can be edited after the fact if desired. Here is a list of the included scales and chord types:

1. All major scales
2. A, B, C#, E, F# major chords (the only ones that can be constructed with all triadic elements).
3. All major 7 chords
4. All minor/minor7 chords (available type depends on construction restrictions)
5. All dominant 7 chords
6. All dominant 9 chords
7. All altered dominant chords (but with variations based on construction restrictions)
8. All diminished chords
9. All diminished 7 chords
10. All pentatonic scales
11. All lydian scales
12. Both whole tone scales
13. All augmented chords

Tom

Junkmonkey
03-29-2004, 02:18 PM
Tom and Karl

Thank you guys very much. I didn\'t mean to make you write a bunch, but it\'s very much appreciated. I am going to test out those harp packets now. It didn\'t dawn on me that harp glissandi repeat notes!

Thanks again guys, very informative!

- junK

Junkmonkey
03-29-2004, 02:29 PM
Okay guys

Sorry for the double post. But I have to complain about the midi packets.

There should be a warning on the front of the GPO CD case, in giant yellow letters on a black background, with a skull and bones, and maybe some dripping blood, reminiscent of your typical 80\'s metal cd cover. And the warning should say:

Glissando Harp Midi Data Packets are too fun. Glissandi may lead to damaged cuticles!!

*sigh, these things are AWESOME!

- jUNK

dewdman42
03-29-2004, 04:08 PM
I haven\'t used the harp packets yet to be sure, but another side benefit to using them is that they may help a beginning orchestrator to compose harp music that is actually playable by a harpist. By being confined to this approach, it more closely emulates the way a harp player actually plays and just by learning how the midi packets work...a student of orchestration would learn a lot about arranging for harp.

In my orchestration class we had to make a cardboard pedal \"calculator\" to help us figure out pedal positions as we arrange.

my 2 cents based on what I\'ve read so far..

One thing I would like to know about this harp midi packet package..is..what notes in the score or midi track will be used? If my goal is compose an arrangement that will eventually be printed out and played by a real harpist..then I want to enter the notes as they should be printed out. I don\'t want to enter a c major scale run every time, even though Kontakt might be playing the right notes for me...I want to effect what is actually saved in the midi track.

Do these midi packets only effect kontakt playback features? What I\'m asking for may in fact not be possible without some kind of midi plugin I reckon.

Eric G
03-29-2004, 04:43 PM
Interesting stuff! How does the remapping work, though? What data do the packets consist of? Some kind of sysex intercepted by the Kontakt player that remaps the pitches?

--Eric

Tom Hopkins
03-29-2004, 05:53 PM
Dewdman42,

This is one of those cases where you will need to keep the MIDI and notation functions separate. I would suggest a second (muted) track dedicated to the harp notation as you would like it displayed for printing. Remember, the remapping uses only the white keys of the keyboard to achieve playable realistic glissandos and there is usually no direct correlation between the actual white keys and their note names for this function. There are many things in the world of MIDI that do not translate directly to notation and this fun trick is one of them.


Eric,

The MIDI packets do not use SysEx. They use a handful of assigned MIDI controllers to switch between layers depending upon the controller values. The various layers consist of remapped and transposed samples. Specific layers are “chosen” by the controller values that switch to the needed mapping/transpositions. I know this sounds complicated in this quick explanation but, fortunately, you don’t need to think about all of this unless you decide to construct some additional packets of your own.

Tom

Karl Garrett
03-29-2004, 06:09 PM
Junk, Thought you\'d like them. The other thing I enjoy when I\'m getting blue, is to bang on the timps. You can take out a lot of aggression on them. Gary should license GPO to Shrinks for use in therapy sessions. images/icons/smile.gif

Eric, I\'m not sure what is actually written. I\'ll have to check on a piece with them and let you know.

dewdman42
03-30-2004, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Tom Hopkins:
Dewdman42,

This is one of those cases where you will need to keep the MIDI and notation functions separate. I would suggest a second (muted) track dedicated to the harp notation as you would like it displayed for printing. Remember, the remapping uses only the white keys of the keyboard to achieve playable realistic glissandos and there is usually no direct correlation between the actual white keys and their note names for this function. There are many things in the world of MIDI that do not translate directly to notation and this fun trick is one of them.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Noted. I figured that was the case and didnt\' mean to say anything bad about the way its currently designed. Its actually quite ingenious in terms of making it easy to peform great and realistic SOUNDING harp parts. Kudos to you guys!


Originally posted by Tom Hopkins:

The MIDI packets do not use SysEx. They use a handful of assigned MIDI controllers to switch between layers depending upon the controller values. The various layers consist of remapped and transposed samples. Specific layers are “chosen” by the controller values that switch to the needed mapping/transpositions. I know this sounds complicated in this quick explanation but, fortunately, you don’t need to think about all of this unless you decide to construct some additional packets of your own.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Very ingenious. I guess I will try to make a midi tool that can sit inline and translate proper harp notation into the correct harp packet+c major scale notes. Or visa versa maybe. something I can use to translate back and forth between GPO performance and how it needs to be notated. Oh that MOTU would just add support for midi plugins! Oh well, a standalone midi program can probably be used too. I needed a project.

landford
03-30-2004, 01:49 AM
Hello:

I looked at those Harp packets and found values for the controllers of 0, 32, 64 and 96 - don\'t the peadls either go up 2 half steps or up and down one half step? Just curious as to why there are 4 different values?

Anyone?

Thanks in advance-
Tom

Looper
03-31-2004, 12:15 AM
Great, I was just wondering about the harp packets myself when I came across this topic.

I\'ve got one more question perhaps Tom could answer: Should the gliss always start on C? For instance if I want A7 would the note \"A\" always fall on a C?

Thanks

Looper

Junkmonkey
03-31-2004, 02:16 AM
Hi guys

Just to clarify. When pasting the \"harp packet,\" what you are actually pasting is the midi clip (Sonar calls em clips) onto another track routed to the same channel as your glissando harp?

If so, is it possible to move multiple packets (clips) onto one track? Bigger \'if so,\' what happens if I accidentally delete the packet (clip!)? Can I ever get it back from within sonar, without re-importing nine bazillion tracks (yes, I know I could cut up my midi harp file into smaller mids).

So many questions, I hurt my own head!

- Sir Junk, Protector of the Munk

dewdman42
03-31-2004, 03:00 AM
I can\'t speak for Sonar, but in DP I can put them all into my soundbites window and then I can drag and drop them where I want on the sequence. I don\'t see any reason why you couldn\'t organize them any way you want. The main thing is that they have arranged them in a way that is easy to see the list on the left and find the midi packet ( which is actually like 5 or 6 midi controller messages in each packet).

Another possibility with DP (maybe with others) is to create a Console (as described in another thread). I read up on DP consoles recently and its possible to create buttons which are attached to midi data. So its theoretically possible to create some kind of harp pedal console contraption and as you push buttons the associated harp midi packets would be sent to whatever track you want.

But I\'m no harpist myself...so dragging and dropping the cleanly labeled packets in the right places is probably about the only way I\'m ever going to program nice harp parts.

Tom Hopkins
03-31-2004, 04:54 PM
Landford,

There are more transposition choices with the controllers than available on a real harp. Gary is a harpist and originally designed the programming to work with his MIDI Harp (which he invented). Gary could give you more details about the differences than I could but when I extended the MIDI packet library to a much greater selection of chord and scale types I took advantage of the programming options. Some of the packets could not be duplicated by a real harpist (at least not without retuning strings). This is another one of the things that the user would have to keep in mind if notation were going to be used for a real harpist. For the GPO user it is extremely convenient though (it’s nice to have choices for the key of “C,” for instance).

Looper,

Chord and scale types do not remap with all roots placed on the “C” key. Which note ends up being placed on the “C” key depends on the particular chord or scale. Remember, re-mapping takes place over a narrow range.

Junkmonkey,

You can combine the packets and the note tracks if you like but it is usually easier to work with if they have separate tracks. In my advice I recommended that you organize a MIDI packet “library” in your sequencer and copy each packet, as needed, from the library to a second track set to the same MIDI channel as the harp. Accidentally losing any packet on the second track will cause no problems because it is easily re-copied from the library (which is always in view). Better yet, if you use the “undo” function in Sonar right after you make a mistake you should be able to recover the lost data. How you build the MIDI packet library depends upon the particular sequencer you are using. I organized mine in Logic by creating a harp folder which contained all tracks related to the harp part. This consisted of the harp note track, the harp MIDI packets track and, below that, the library. The library consisted of a track for each key, with chord and scale types for that key spaced horizontally on that track. Below the key tracks were the tracks for the symmetrical scales. All library tracks were muted and I gave each chord and scale type a different color for clarity. I’m not sure of the best way to organize things in Sonar since I’m rather new to the program. Others more familiar with Sonar may have some suggestions.

Tom

Garritan
03-31-2004, 10:37 PM
Sir Junk, Protector of the Munk,

As Tom mentioned, you can combine the packets and the note tracks if you like but it is usually easier to work with if they have separate tracks.

To make things easier for for folks using SONAR, GPO User Charles Green has converted the MIDI Harp Packets into individual two measure MIDI Groove Clips.

http://www.garritan.com/support/GPO-GlissandoHarpPackets.zip (\"http://www.garritan.com/support/GPO-GlissandoHarpPackets.zip\")

The clips have been organized into seperate folders by key. The program change controls are at the beginning of each clip so that the user can reduce the size of the clip to a single beat if desired. Once dragged into position on a seperate track pointed to the same channel as the Glissando Harp, one can take the mouse and reduce the length if desired by dragging the end of the clip to the left. This approach saves memory and tracks in the current project while making it easy in SONAR to select the required Harp Packet.

Gary Garritan

dewdman42
04-01-2004, 01:57 AM
Gary,

If it would be possible for you as a harpist to tell us which of the midi packets are NOT real world harp pedal positions, it would be most helpful for me. Unless it just gets way more complicated than that with harpists willing to retune etc.. But in general I\'d like to know which of those packets I should avoid for more realistic orchestration (I\'m trying to learn the craft).

Junkmonkey
04-01-2004, 02:41 AM
Hey dewder

Pages 82 - 100, The Study of Orchestration by Samuel Adler images/icons/wink.gif Your questions have been answered.

If you\'re serious about learning the craft, I would highly recommend this book! Though I have no formal training in orchestration (I took the theory classes, learned the rest by myself), this book was SOOOOOOOOOOO influential in my writing. Mucho helpful!

If by craft, you were specifically referring to learning to orchestrate for the harp... then bug Mr. Garritan hehe

- Monkey, Junk

dewdman42
04-01-2004, 03:31 PM
Yes yes...I have the book....and I have studied parts of it..and I\'m sure I can go through and figure out which of the midi packets to hide away where I can\'t accidentally use them. I figure Tom and Gary might be able to tell me/us in about 5 minutes though...

landford
04-01-2004, 05:05 PM
Tom:

Thanks for clarifing.


Tom

Junkmonkey
04-02-2004, 01:56 PM
aww dewder, where\'s the fun in that?

Seek, and ye shall find - and in the process of finding ye shall be enlightened, and happy that you found the answer! images/icons/wink.gif

- jUnKiest

Garritan
04-02-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by dewdman42:
Gary,

If it would be possible for you as a harpist to tell us which of the midi packets are NOT real world harp pedal positions, it would be most helpful for me. Unless it just gets way more complicated than that with harpists willing to retune etc.. But in general I\'d like to know which of those packets I should avoid for more realistic orchestration (I\'m trying to learn the craft). <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">dewdman42,

It would be possible but it may take a little while as I have a full plate. There are entire manuals devoted just to harp pedaling. Glissandi are used for emphasis and are usually at a cadence and on a dominant chord.

To achieve glissandi, harpists must often make compromise either in finding compatible chords and sometimes alternate tunings. When writing for harp you must always be aware of the harmonic structure of the piece and knowing some music theory helps.

The harp strings are tuned diatonic - like the white notes of the piano. There are seven pedals corresponding to the seven notes (C-D-E-F-G-A-B) The pedal tunes all the the strings of a particular note up or down a half step. The C pedal will tune all Cs up to a C# or down to a Cb (of B). With this sytem you could not play a C chord (since the D could not go to a C or E, and the A could not go to the G or C). But you could play a C9th (C-D-E-Fb[E]-G-A#-Bb) by making the A sharp and the F and B flat.

Have I thoughly confused you by now? images/icons/confused.gif
More on harp pedaling later.

Gary Garritan

dewdman42
04-02-2004, 09:36 PM
heh heh.. I actually have that little yellow Harp manual that some guy wrote that is out of print now (I can\'t remember the author. Hummie got a bunch of copies when he could and I got it that way). It explains all of the theory I need to figure it out I guess. If there are any particular midi packets...which though they sound wonderful..simply aren\'t real-world possible with standard harp tuning..that\'s more or less what I wanna get a red flag about..but it sounds like it will still come down to figuring that out on each composition..taking into account everything.... in general...I think the harp just can\'t be composed by ear alone..or shouldn\'t be....if you care about real players ever playing it..

I\'m not sure its worth the effort, but this is where an inline midi plugin would be really cool. Maybe I\'ll get around to making this someday. But basically something where as a composer I can think like a piano player and not have to worry so much about pedaling theory. Obviously that is what you did with the packets, but it would be even better if I could detect when things are not possible and actually see the correct notation or a warning against problems.

so rather than having a second sequence full of midi packets to copy and paste from. A little midi program that sits inline. From a menu of some kind you choose the key, scale, chord, etc.. at appropriate times it sends the appropriate midi packet... It is at this point in time that the program would indicate the pedaling required..including showing the pedal change that would be required from the previous, etc, indicate tuning change required, etc..

Then you play the gliss on the white keys or an arpeggio on the white keys..just like now. Except have the plugin convert what you are playing to send the actual notes needed for notation onto a 2nd midi channel..or be able to choose one or the other..etc.. Could even possibly have it send some kind of controller midi packet that indicates the real-world pedal also (which MIGHT be parsable by finale/sibelius plugin to show pedal notation).

Ok...dreaming out loud here. Composing for harp, as a non-harpist is...definitely a lot of mental energy that I\'d love to see reduced... A guy can dream though can\'t he?

Garritan
04-02-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by dewdman42:
Ok...dreaming out loud here. Composing for harp, as a non-harpist is...definitely a lot of mental energy that I\'d love to see reduced... A guy can dream though can\'t he? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I also have that yellow harp pedaling manual laying around here somewhere. I think it is out of print and I\'m not surprised Hummie would find them (Maybe we can get Hummie here sometime). The non-conventional and expanded harp pedalings in GPO were done originally with my MIDI harp in mind.

It is a very good idea for an MFX harp plugin, Maple plugin or Logic Environment to just plug into your sequencer. It would be worth the effort. That way you can think like a piano player and not worry about pedaling machinations (the MFX plugin will self-destruct if you make a wrong maneuver). There are some good programmers who may be up to the task images/icons/wink.gif hint images/icons/wink.gif )

Gary Garritan

Garritan
04-02-2004, 09:55 PM
FYI:

Here\'s a brief history of harps that some may find interesting:

http://www.harps.com/harphistory.html (\"http://www.harps.com/harphistory.html\")

landford
04-03-2004, 02:58 PM
Ok so then what\'s the difference between an \'A Major Scale\' and an \'A Major gliss\' which notes are used for each?

Anyone help on this?

Tom

dewdman42
04-04-2004, 10:34 PM
By the way, the little yellow harp book we\'re talking about is called \"Harp Scoring\" by Stanley Chaloupka.