How is audio put into games?

[falcon1]

Hi guys, I thought it would be good idea to start this forum with a topic with a kind of stupid question.

If I would need to compose music for game, how should I do it? Ok, I know I must compose the music put in sequencer etc. However, what I don\'t know is how to deliver it so the programmer or what ever can put the music in use in the game. Is there any standards or could I just deliver in waw form?

I\'ve never composed for games so I know this could sound stupid for some.

Also, what\'s the difference between scoring for film/ads etc. or games?

Thanks in advance!

[KingIdiot]

It depends on the project.

It can be any format that they ask. It could be submixes of different tracks so they can mix in surroudn themselves, it could be 6ch surround stems, it could be stereo wave, it could be protools project, it could be stereo aiff, it could be mp3, it could be ogg vorbis, it could be looped, it could be non looped but with loop markers, it could be adpcm, it could be console format specific/encoded, it could be......uh.. you get the picture images/icons/wink.gif


as for how different it is, well lots of things. It can vfary in length of the project, it can require much more music than film or TV/Ads (2hours or more at times). Unlike TV/Film you deal with a nonlinear medium in terms of \"feeling\". Movies are from point a to point b in regards to whats going on, on the screen. Games go from a to h back to c to e to an alien alphabetic character... images/icons/smile.gif

Its quite difficult to get the balance of \"cool\" and not \"overbearing\", when working with streaming/linear music in a game

Then there\'s interactive music.... joy... lots of things to think about there.

[falcon1]

King, so I better have equipment for every format on the planet + alien planets? Uffh... there goes my pay check for 20 years. images/icons/grin.gif

[KingIdiot]

nope, but if you are pitching on a project, try and find out what they\'ll need, and if you get it, try and get an advance and buy waht you need for it.

[folk prophet]

Originally posted by falcon1:
Hi guys, I thought it would be good idea to start this forum with a topic with a kind of stupid question.

If I would need to compose music for game, how should I do it? Ok, I know I must compose the music put in sequencer etc. However, what I don\'t know is how to deliver it so the programmer or what ever can put the music in use in the game. Is there any standards or could I just deliver in waw form?

I\'ve never composed for games so I know this could sound stupid for some.

Also, what\'s the difference between scoring for film/ads etc. or games?

Thanks in advance! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Ultimately, that\'s the programmer\'s issue. They\'ll specify what they want. There are several forms game audio can take. You\'ll need to work with the game developer to decide which is best.

As far as scoring differences, mainly, games are dynamic. A movie is set. You write the score and there it is. The same every time you watch the movie. But games offer choices to players. The music, therefore, has to follow what\'s happening in the game to fit.

Drama is also an issue. Music helps to enhance drama. But drama in a video game is VERY different from drama in a movie. The drama of a video game comes from the players personal investment in the game itself much more than the empathy side of movie drama. In other words, if a character dies in a movie and it makes you cry, its because you related or felt something for that character. In a video game, usually, it\'s really tough to make someone cry over dying unless its because they have to start the level over again. The emotional investment is totally different.

[zquarles]

Ultimately, that\'s the programmer\'s issue.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That\'s true, but never bow down to what the programmers want, just because it is \"easier\" or some such thing. Always stick up for what YOU think is best for the project, if a programmer thinks that a simple MIDI engine would be good enough for a heart-stopping, dramatic, horror title, then you\'re going to have to try to change their minds.
On the other end of the spectrum programmers can have the tendency to \"go overboard\" and keep adding features (I think they never sleep)...you have to know when to stop, because you might start to stretch yourself thin and ultimately make the project suffer for not having a clear, cohesive audio element.
So, always stick to your audio guns.
Especially if you\'re doing a FPS!
images/icons/smile.gif

[keytar]

C\'mon guys, you can do better than the vauge answers you\'ve given. How about you simply tell us what format(s) the audio was in that you delivered in your last game? images/icons/smile.gif

Don\'t most video games now days simply play standard cd audio tracks during the game?

[zquarles]

King, you always have ideas that could shine.
THAT\'S WHY YOUZ THE KING, BABY!
&lt;ahem&gt;
:-)

[folk prophet]

Originally posted by keytar:
C\'mon guys, you can do better than the vauge answers you\'ve given. How about you simply tell us what format(s) the audio was in that you delivered in your last game? images/icons/smile.gif

Don\'t most video games now days simply play standard cd audio tracks during the game? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Okay. For the last game, I delivered a CD with Redbook audio.

Previous to that, I did a game that required the use of DirectMusic. The sound quality wasn\'t what I wished it could have been. But the game was being published for download...so we had to go with an audio option that kept things small.

For the game I\'m working on now, it\'ll ultimatly be a mix of various forms.

There is no answer that isn\'t vague...because each project is unique.

And I wasn\'t saying you shouldn\'t fight for the best quality of audio you can. Obviously. But if the devloper says he wants mp3 for compression and streaming reasons, you don\'t deliver him .wav. He\'ll just convert it to mp3 anyway and be pissed at you for not doing what he asked.

That doesn\'t mean you can\'t discuss it with him and try and persuade him to your way of thinking. Not at all.

[MarcDerell]

Nowadays most are using MP3,WMA or OGG esp in more complex environments like RPGs or similar. It\'s small in size yet has good quality and you can make a neat dynamic sound engine out of it (which ends in composing loops, though images/icons/frown.gif )

-Marc

[KingIdiot]

hwo the hell is my answer vague? Its to the point, you submit in many formats.

but Nyah images/icons/tongue.gif here images/icons/wink.gif

Last gig was custom format PS2 banks and Custom Adaptive Midi Playback engine designed by 989studios.

Current gig thats finishing up, multiple submixes for another mixer to mix and submit finals in PL2 encoded format, and 6ch surround stems. As well as some submitions of 6ch surround stems edited sync\'d to video.

Next gig I cant get into too many details, but looks like it possibly will deal with phase coherent edited streams, and there are other details to be worked out on how the songs structurely will be delivered themselves. (sorry cant be too detailed with this one, new stuff, so I\'m not sure how far it\'ll go.). I have delivered music on this gig in wave format sync\'d to video. To be encoded on their end.

Mind you this isn\'t how all games are done, just the ones I\'ve worked on lately, and that I like trying to work outside of the \"basics\".

If it were basic, I\'d be submitting wave files most of the time, mostly to trigger CD tracks (or encoded tracks). These types of gigs are the easiest to do, but end up using music as \"filler\", which isn\'t always so bad, but I want to atleast be a part of some of the revolutions that are going on with music, understanding some of it now and not have to play catch up later.

Anyhow, the most common format submitted is Wave/Aiff Stereo (possibly ADPCM compressed), Mp3 probably next, with some sort of surround option next, and MIDI/custom banks hiding more and more (but if you can do this, you get yourself into a niche market, and can possibly get good work, Jak and Daxter and Sly Cooper were both MIDI games with interactive music engines)

oh and Zack, I\'ve heard some great MIDI music. Its about how much they\'ll give you in terms of memory and DSP options. One can do quite a bit with it. There are also other options that aren\'t usually explored that could sound in-f\'in-credible and have all the control of MIDI that aren\'t explored because the \"idea\" of MIDI is \"crap\" to many. I\'ve got some ideas that could shine.

[devinmaxwell]

the last game i worked on required us to deliver .ogg for the music and sfx and the one before that was direct music stuff, so basically a mix of MIDI with custom sound banks with rendered .wav files as well. I think the one we\'re working on now is going to be redbook audio, or at least the deliverables are going to be. Not in the too distant past I had to use .MOD files for a GBA title. Some of the work we\'re doing right now is simple MIDI files, so it really does differ. No two projects are the same because there are really no standards yet. I don\'t know if there will be, but my guess would be that interactive .mp3/.ogg multitrack playback systems might be some sort of standard soon.

-dev

[KingIdiot]

I honestly dont think there should be any standards just yet. It will stilt the development of music in games. I do want MORE from music in games, but more in many peoples minds tends to be more streams, or more RAM, or more of the stuff so we can work with streams.

After being a stream geek and almsot always fighting for streams because it \"sounds better\", and having first hand worked with some cool interactive MIDI options, I would LOVE to have more DSP features and simple filter options and MORE basic MIDI controls. I think I could tear it up on a MIDI game now, and really make something much more dynamic and musical than anything I could do with streams. With good programming and work with the programmers it is still a very viable musical option, mixing with streams is even more powerful.

It would be sad to see this part of music creation neglected, when the focus for many people seems to be streaming music.

This comes from a guy with 400GB in sample data that he almost never gets to use (yes I want to be on a monster streaming project images/icons/wink.gif soon tho)

[devinmaxwell]

king-

that\'s all pretty interesting. i recently wrote a grant proposal for a commission of a concert piece of music where it was required that I take an aesthetic position on my own music. after thinking about this for quite a while, I decided that if I took a position on my music right now it would stilt my development as a composer, which is similar to what you\'re saying about games. that is a very good point.

ultimately, what i like about scoring games is the creation of some sort of interactive music system, which has been VERY different for each project I\'ve worked on. in fact... it looks like I won\'t even be writing any of the music for the next project I do! I\'m just taking a bunch of music that already exists and making an interactive score out of it.

-dev

[TLarkin]

9 times out of 10 I deliver a stereo wav file. Currently at Cyan we are converting them all to ogg, then decompressing to the hard drive.
There are many times however that I don\'t know what the final format will be, but they still want the ful rez wav file. Often the developer doesn\'t know the final format until later in the project, so as long as they have the source, they\'re fine. I do prefer to do whatever compression is needed myself if I can, avoiding some serious crunching or possible loop problems down the road.
Tim

[guybrush threepwood]

Having in mind ogg better performance that mp3 due to the use of wavelets, it\'s multichannel possibilities, and above all, it being FREE for the developers, i would say it\'s gonna be the next standard in music for games
my 2 cents images/icons/smile.gif

[folk prophet]

I\'ve never used ogg. I don\'t even know what it is or how it works. Anyone willing to fill me in.

Guybrush, what do you mean by multichannel and wavelets?

Thanks all

[KingIdiot]

Not writing any music? hehe thats gonna be frustrating, but if you\'re a geek like me and love to see how things \"work\" then making interactive music will be fun.

[dwdonehoo]

Originally posted by folk prophet:
I\'ve never used ogg. I don\'t even know what it is or how it works. Anyone willing to fill me in. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Its just another audio wave format, not lossy but still compressed. SonicFoundry and Vegas can export ogg vorbis.

Please remember some game engines are limited in what sound format is supported. For example, the Unreal game engine is very picky about its sound formats.

[KingIdiot]

as far as I know Ogg Vorbis is lossy.

[TLarkin]

Yes Ogg is definitely lossy. However in my opinion, for the amount of compression you get, it sounds about the best. Mp4 is pretty good too, but Ogg is also sample accurate, so looping is a breeze.
Tim

[guybrush threepwood]

In http://www.vorbis.com (\"http://www.vorbis.com\") you can find more info. It really loops great, even if it is lossy it introduces less artifacts than mp3. Lately I\'ve been composing a lot for Unreal Tournament 2003 engine, so I\'ve been experimenting a lot with ogg.
I would say that ogg with a nominal bitrate of 80kbps sounds better than mp3 CBR 128kbps.
And you can use it multiplexing n channels. Never have used it, but I\'ve seen movies in ogm (ogg media file) with audio in 6.1 channels encoded in ogg.