Known Sample Libraries Used?

[KingIdiot]

Jsut about everything.

Miroslavs been used countless times, The roland stuff. The JV-1080\'s a standard.

I\'ve heard QLB used. VotA will be used alot I\'m sure (I planned to extensively on a game that was canned), Now with VSL and QLSO, these will be used alot I\'m sure. SoV was all over the place. Samples are a streaming music composer\'s best friend.

They are a DLS/MIDI music composer\'s worst nightmare, since they taunt you with \"you cant use us, NYAH nya NYAH na NYAH NYAAAAAAHHH!\"

[Ash F]

GOS is fairly common, and i swear i\'m hearing DDBE all over the place too. As King noted, the Roland Orch. Expansion cards were standard issue for a long time.

Originally posted by Francis Belardino:

Are most games MIDI/Sampling scores or do they ever use the real thing?
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Increasingly, the real thing - the advantageous availability/cost of many eastern European orchestras has brought them within the budget of most developers. Having said that, the latest TR score uses the London Symphony Orchestra - v.nice, if you\'re budget stretches that far images/icons/smile.gif

[zquarles]

I will be using VSL, VOTA, Atmosphere, Absynth, SAM, and a few others for a title I\'m currently working on.
I\'ve used QLB, AO, GOS, and other things in the past...will continue to use GOS and maybe some woodwind passages from AO.

Of course, G-town makes appearances constantly.

[dwdonehoo]

There is really not a thing the savy game music composer will not use. That being said, after talking at length with some of the more well know game composers, I was surprised by what they did not know or had not heard of. For example, Bill Brown did not know a thing about the SAM libs till I showed him (and Bill is a pretty technical guy), and now he is their biggest fan and a beta tester. I could cite many more examples. A lot of them seemed stuck in the Roland orch board phase (See KI\'s list above) and seemed clueless about the advances in sample technology: usually these are the guys who normally use live orchestras. Really, in many way, sample technology is just now making an impact on the composer community as a whole.

[Waywyn]

So in times where is used also wav and mp3 or ogg, sounddesigner and gamemusicians are using all kinds of libraries. mostly its a money thing. here in germany for instance you don\'t really have the budget to write a chart and \"rent\" and record an orchestra, so you have to rely on sample libs because of the budget.

but i guess the game industries will come out more and more after the movie industries. i think there was this example that the game hitman 2 had more budget for the music than the first matrix movie images/icons/wink.gif

for my part i hope that i will get the ewqlso very soon, so that my gamemusic will sound a little bit more closed and more real (as real as it gets, i mean its still samples images/icons/smile.gif )

[Francis Belardino]

Known Sample Libraries Used?

I am not a total gamer but I do remember hearing SOV on a few titles.
What else had been used and where?
Are most games MIDI/Sampling scores or do they ever use the real thing?


Thanks
FB

PS. If you have yet to hear SAVAGE by Doyle... you are missing out on one of the best scores made via samples!! AMAZING!!!

[greatzed]

I heard some AO in Rayman 3.

[KingIdiot]

well you gotta remember, many of your are thinking \"orchestral\" or \"acoustic\", and thats not the whole game market.

Sometimes you need that electronic sound, or the \"cheesy\" sounds.

I did all of Tomba two on an xp-30 (tho if I had samples and more giga machiens I would have done that)

However, I would never use full orchestra only on Crash Bandicoot, except for parody purposes. I\'m using lots of soundfonts instead to keep the feel of the original series.

Lets make sure to keep an open mind here about Games, Orchestral isn\'t the only type of music we can do, nor is electronic. FUNK! Now thats where its at images/icons/wink.gif

The JV-1080 is still a monster. The atmospheres you can create with it are awesome, which is why I\'m samplign a ton of it to use in Giga/Kontakt so I have more output/routing options.

[Francis Belardino]

\"only on Crash Bandicoot\"

Was that your music, King?

[tabbu]

What libraries do Jeremy Soule and Ion Zur use. I just love their game music. Baldur\'s Gate series are awsome! I presume that those gamesoundtracks are done by software and not by real orchestra...

Tapani

[MarcDerell]

They both work with real live orchestras as well as samples. I think it depends on how much budget they have images/icons/smile.gif If I\'m not mistaken Inon worked with a small orchestra for Icewind Dale... Can be wrong though images/icons/smile.gif

[Maarten Spruijt]

Originally posted by MarcDerell:
They both work with real live orchestras as well as samples. I think it depends on how much budget they have images/icons/smile.gif If I\'m not mistaken Inon worked with a small orchestra for Icewind Dale... Can be wrong though images/icons/smile.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Listen to some of Bill\'s music at www.billbrownmusic.com (\"http://www.billbrownmusic.com\") .

Bill used live ensembles on some of the game soundtracks on there, or sometimes hybrid.

Maarten

[MarcDerell]

Sure he did... but they all work with sample based libraries as well although some might prefer the real thing (who doesn\'t *g*).

But who cares anyway ? The only thing that matters is everyone is enjoying the music (regardless of the musician) that has been made, isn\'t it ? images/icons/smile.gif

Happy game scoring!

-Marc

[Maarten Spruijt]

Oh yes of course totally! images/icons/smile.gif

Just wanted to share an interesting link!

Maarten

[Waywyn]

i heard or red that soule is using the garritan library, but i dunno how often they change the stuff when they get their big budgets images/icons/wink.gif

[mitchb2]

Originally posted by KingIdiot:
nope thats Mark Mothersberg <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I had no idea. My kids watch \"Rugrats,\" and I always cringe and wonder when MM is going to upgrade his sound canvas.

C\'mon...he\'s making money now.
Why the awful sounds?

[Francis Belardino]

PS. If you have yet to hear SAVAGE by Doyle... you are missing out on one of the best scores made via samples!! AMAZING!!! images/icons/shocked.gif

Had to advertise this again. This music is killer, Doyle.

VERY Randy Elelman / Trevor Jones

[KingIdiot]

nope thats Mark Mothersberg from Devo he\'s also the head of Mutato Muzika http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/B00005T406/all/ref%3Dbuy%5Fpb%5Fa/002-4564593-7756007 (\"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/B00005T406/all/ref%3Dbuy%5Fpb%5Fa/002-4564593-7756007\") . They did many of the previous Crash Games and Jak And Daxter.

I\'m working on Crash Nitro Kart, the sequel to Crash Team Racing.

I\'m splitting the in-game music with Todd Masten, and I\'m doing all the cutscene stuff.

I\'ve gotta say, what Mark and the Mutato guys started is really a difficult thing to keep going. Its got its own quirky feel, and its very hard to NOT try and make it bigger and more \"pop\". I\'m sure alot of it comes from the fact that these guys were forced to use no more than 200k for their sample source. The bigger your sample set, the more you want to use to fill up space

[Francis Belardino]

\"I\'m working on Crash Nitro Kart, the sequel to Crash Team Racing.\"

That is so great to hear, man.

I\'ll buy the game just for the tracks images/icons/smile.gif

[dwdonehoo]

Francis sez: \"PS. If you have yet to hear SAVAGE by Doyle... \"
I may make that available soon. Gotta talk to some people first...

KI Sez: \"well you gotta remember, many of your are thinking \"orchestral\" or \"acoustic\", and thats not the whole game market. Sometimes you need that electronic sound, or the \"cheesy\" sounds.\"

This is true in the context of sample libs. There are plenty of sample libs out there that have nothing to do directly with orchestral music.
Hybrid, synth, rock/pop, mixed media, electronic...all have their uses in game music, which means it is good for a composer to be well rounded. I am collecting a good number of soft synths (like Absynth and others), and combined with my hardware mods, I am going to have to make a synth sequencer template and produce some more current synth based and hybrid examples.

KI Sez: \"The JV-1080 is still a monster.\"
Yeah, I still want one….

Tabbu sez\" What libraries do Jeremy Soule … use.\"
Jeremy has done a lot of sampling on his own, and he says his string lib is more complex than GOS, which he also uses. Currently he uses 24 computers. He also uses some things you have not seen yet because they are beta.

Maarten sez: \"Bill used live ensembles on some of the game soundtracks on there, or sometimes hybrid.\"

AND he uses Maarten\'s SAM brass, and is also a beta tester for SAM\'s. images/icons/wink.gif A very good example of the hybrid things that Bill does is this L2 score in the link below. He recorded the strings in Seattle, I believe. You have to believe the brass is largely SAMs:
http://bbmusic.crosswinds.net/soundBB/L2_Trailer-FullMix.mp3 (\"http://bbmusic.crosswinds.net/soundBB/L2_Trailer-FullMix.mp3\")

[MarcDerell]

...and they are talking about Bill using the whole Seattle Orchestra *lol* Well, there\'s nothing wrong in using both, I guess images/icons/smile.gif

It\'s always good to have something unique although it often tends to end up like \"Can you make gamemusic like this movie score / composer ?\" Oh well, if that\'s what they want, heh.

-Marc

[MDesigner]

Originally posted by tabbu:
What libraries do Jeremy Soule and Ion Zur use. I just love their game music. Baldur\'s Gate series are awsome! I presume that those gamesoundtracks are done by software and not by real orchestra...

Tapani <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Baldur\'s Gate I & II was scored by Michael Hoenig. The Baldur\'s Gate Throne of Bhaal, however, was done by Inon Zur.

Not sure what Jeremy uses, but I know his samples are custom programmed. I\'m pretty sure in Morrowind, I heard the AO oboe.

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by MDesigner:
Baldur\'s Gate I & II was scored by Michael Hoenig. The Baldur\'s Gate Throne of Bhaal, however, was done by Inon Zur.

Not sure what Jeremy uses, but I know his samples are custom programmed. I\'m pretty sure in Morrowind, I heard the AO oboe. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Michael Hoenig did not score Baldur\'s Gate II. If he did, he\'s not credited in the game. On a side note, I don\'t understand how you can idolize someone who blatently rips off other people\'s music.

[MDesigner]

First off, I didn\'t idolize anyone. Secondly, you told me BGII theme was a ripoff of \"Lifeforce,\" a movie which I saw just recently, and could not distinguish any BG-like theme in there.

And yes, Michael Hoenig DID do the music to Baldur\'s Gate II.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=27239/ (\"http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=27239/\")

Michael is aka \"Metamusic Productions,\" maybe that\'s why you didn\'t see him in the credits. Anyway, do a Google search and all will become clear.

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by MDesigner:
First off, I didn\'t idolize anyone. Secondly, you told me BGII theme was a ripoff of \"Lifeforce,\" a movie which I saw just recently, and could not distinguish any BG-like theme in there.

And yes, Michael Hoenig DID do the music to Baldur\'s Gate II.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=27239/ (\"http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=27239/\")

Michael is aka \"Metamusic Productions,\" maybe that\'s why you didn\'t see him in the credits. Anyway, do a Google search and all will become clear. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You are correct. Perhaps when I saw the credits, I saw the credits for the guy who did the music to the cinematic scenes, which were done by someone else. As far as his Lifeforce rip off, it\'s one of the battle themes in Baldur\'s Gate 1. I tried to find the mp3 I had of it, but I couldn\'t find it.

[MarcDerell]

Com\'on.. no one knows all music that\'s out since centuries. Ever listened to the Medal of Honor theme? Definetly Jurassic Park influenced - by chance or not? Who cares as long as it sounds good and fits very well.
Most composers copy themselves as well in various projects still everyone loves the music. Isn\'t that what should be the primary goal ?

-Marc

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by MarcDerell:
Com\'on.. no one knows all music that\'s out since centuries. Ever listened to the Medal of Honor theme? Definetly Jurassic Park influenced - by chance or not? Who cares as long as it sounds good and fits very well.
Most composers copy themselves as well in various projects still everyone loves the music. Isn\'t that what should be the primary goal ?

-Marc <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yes but I\'m talking a note for note ripoff. It\'s not just similar. I found the file. The left channel is Baldur\'s Gate, the right channel is Mancini\'s Lifeforce. Where in the world do you get Medal of Honor sounding like the Jurassic Park theme? I know both scores extremely well and they sound nothing alike. They don\'t even have the same mood or tone.

http://www.christilton.com/temp/LifeForceRipoff.mp3 (\"http://www.christilton.com/temp/LifeForceRipoff.mp3\")

[Francis Belardino]

\"First off, I didn\'t idolize anyone.\" Sam Hulick

Come back off the year, man!

Not even me though, Sam? images/icons/tongue.gif

[falcon1]

wow what a ripoff!

Shame on Michael Hoenig! images/icons/mad.gif

[dwdonehoo]

Well, Michael Hoenig better hope a pro musicologist (sp?) does not get his hands on that example. Similar in style is one thing (pop has been ripping itself off for decades), but a note for note rip? Wowzers....

[I have had Lifeforce (a modern-day SciFi vampire movie) in my video collection for years.]

\"Lifeforce
Tobe Hooper, 1985. Steve Railsback, Peter Firth, Frank Finlay. Music: Henry Mancini\"

[Netvudu]

uh...after hearing that L2 example of Bill Brown´s music..uh...please someone say something beore I jump through the window...


..wow, talk about impressive and POWERFUL sound.

[falcon1]

I can\'t download the L2 file - The server seems to suck?

[dwdonehoo]

L2 = Works for me...tho very slow. Try tomorrow.
Watching the L2 movie is interesting too, but, boy, that is one busty elf! images/icons/shocked.gif

[Simon Ravn]

Vault - wow that\'s quite a ripoff there. Is that Baldur\'s Gate 1 or 2? Let\'s hope nobody finds out:)

[MDesigner]

There are a couple composers I really like a ton, but don\'t idolize. images/icons/smile.gif

vault: Wow, that\'s creepy.. it really is a note for note ripoff. I don\'t recall that theme in the movie though.. I\'ll have to rent it to check it out again. How did you find this Lifeforce track?

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by MDesigner:
There are a couple composers I really like a ton, but don\'t idolize. images/icons/smile.gif

vault: Wow, that\'s creepy.. it really is a note for note ripoff. I don\'t recall that theme in the movie though.. I\'ll have to rent it to check it out again. How did you find this Lifeforce track? <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I have the soundtrack to LifeForce, which is out of print I believe. I\'ve never seen the movie, so I don\'t know where it plays, but it\'s track 1 and is just called \"Lifeforce Theme.\" The rest of the score is rather ambient and kind of a hard listen on it\'s own though.

[christianb]

Vault


wow....


christianb

[Paulh]

Man, that\'s a ripoff... I just don\'t get it. Someone will inevitably find out sooner or later, so why to do that to yourself? That\'s very odd.

[D.DiAnda]

Damn! Baldur\'s Gate 1 & 2 are a couple of my favorite games and game soundtracks. Very disappointing to find out that Michael Hoenig did that. images/icons/confused.gif
When I first read the accusation I thought to myself...\'what\'s the big deal, who hasn\'t at some point unintentionally come up with an idea that is a little too close someone else\'s music?\'
But that is TOO close to be accidental.

[damoy]

The evidence seems to be implicating. But do you think there\'s even a remote chance that it could have been unintentional? I ask because this relates to a personal experience I had recently. I was doing some composing for a local live drama. One day the director comes up to me and says we can\'t use the main theme. I asked why. He throws a soundtrack cd at me and says listen to track 14 (or whatever, I don\'t remember). And to my horror, it was identical to the piece I had composed. I had never ever heard this particular soundtrack before in my life. Needless to say, I had to tweak the theme a bit to give it it\'s own identity. But maybe it sounds like some other song now - that I just haven\'t heard yet. images/icons/confused.gif

[MDesigner]

No, this was no subconscious ripoff. Reasons:

a) The key, tempo, and time signature are the same.
b) The melody is the same, with just a couple variations here & there.
c) The instrumentation is the nearly exactly the same.

This is a serious matter... I\'d almost like to mention it to someone at Interplay. If I were a game company, I sure wouldn\'t want to pay money for someone to give me something that someone else wrote in \'85. But maybe we\'re assuming too much.. maybe Mancini gave Hoenig permission to do this? (kinda reaching here)

[Gulliver]

The orchestration from that video game is watered down from Mancini\'s original but a poor ripoff is still a ripoff.

Funny thing is the theme to Lifeforce has been consistantly ripped off by many.. And when I say many I mean the friggin population of India.

There has been countless blatant but also subtle plagiarizations including commercials, tv themes, and in NFL music promos. There\'s a collection out there called \'NFL Films: The Power and Glory Soundtrack\' and in there you\'ll hear another ripoff of Lifeforce on one of the tracks. It\'s like a homegrown industry.. somebody out there should be thanking Mancini.. images/icons/smile.gif

[KingIdiot]

Originally posted by Gulliver:


And when I say many I mean the friggin population of India.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">HAHAHA!!

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by MDesigner:
This is a serious matter... I\'d almost like to mention it to someone at Interplay. If I were a game company, I sure wouldn\'t want to pay money for someone to give me something that someone else wrote in \'85. But maybe we\'re assuming too much.. maybe Mancini gave Hoenig permission to do this? (kinda reaching here) <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">When BG first came out, I got in contact with the Mancini family\'s lawyer. I talked to him extensively about it and I sent him a CD of each piece, etc. He said basically he would tell the copyright holder (I think it\'s Universal) about it and they can choose to pursue it. They probably were like... \"eh who cares, it\'s a video game\" and didn\'t even bother. Other than that, there wasn\'t much that could be done.

[Tamino]

Anyone else here think Hoenig\'s version sounded better? images/icons/wink.gif

Honestly, I really think it\'s less of a sin to quote a piece in its entirety than to steal little pieces of it.

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by Tamino:
Anyone else here think Hoenig\'s version sounded better? images/icons/wink.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I suppose if you like really crappy synth, then yes it\'s better.

[falcon1]

Honestly, I really think it\'s less of a sin to quote a piece in its entirety than to steal little pieces of it. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">You\'re kidding, right?

[Tamino]

Yes, by quoting the entire piece, you are making it too obvious and thus you aren\'t trying to deceive anyone.

By stealing little pieces, you\'re trying to hide it, and, in my opinion, that is a more despicable act.

[Netvudu]

I can understand taking inspiration such as what Zimmer did in Gladiator, obviously based on Gustav Holst as we all know. That one was nice because it had some Zimmer stuff which made it an interesting blend of techniques.

Now, using any other artist themes is totally different. I can´t give my opinion, because I haven´t heard those two pieces. Still, I would take some care when giving opinions about such long projects because we have no idea of what could have happened there if it´s really so close to Mancini´s theme.

[falcon1]

hmmm... Tamino, you can\'t avoid \"stealing\" little pieces - We are all working with the same notes here. The great composers all quoted or \"stole\" bits and pieces/ideas from their peers and great composers before them, it\'s just the way this works - the art is to make the idea or little piece, if you will, fit into your own creation without being making the quotation too obvious.
In other words you create a new idea from old idea - that of course means that the old idea is shown in other perspective.

In the rip-off we are talking about, really nothing has changed - The harmony is the same, tempo, accompaniment and theme (with minor variations). That\'s not art, that\'s stealing!

Hope I have make my point clear.

[Tamino]

You assume Hoenig was representing it as his original work.

Did you consider that it\'s also a possibility that it was simply an interpretation?

That, to me, is the more obvious assumption.

And I simply do not agree with your point that all composers are derivative.

[David Govett]

Yeah we have to be able to use bits and pieces of what has already been done because there is really no way to write anything otherwise that will sound good. I\'m not even talking about intentionally borrowing. I mean any thing you come up with on your own will inevitably contain small riffs from a variety of things that other composers have already stumbled onto in the past and several times over. You would have to randomly generate notes all over the place to not step on sombody\'s toes and that would not sound very good for most things.
Its not impossible to do a note for note ripoff though you wont have the same arrangements and tempo like the example we are talking about here. This seems pretty intnentional. However I had a tune that I created using riffs from several songs to create the melody. It combined ideas from TV show theme, two movie themes and a classical tune and my tweaks to create an entirely original melody. Its definitely MINE! However, I later found a recording from the 50s that I had never heard and it was the same damn melody! Note for Note for about 2/3 or 3/4 of mine!
Fortunately it was just an introduction to a song and done in a slow balad style and mine was a march and it deviated from it 2/3 through the phrase. So it is doable. We got 12 notes to choose from so we are going to step on toes now and then.
Dave

[David Govett]

You know, on this subject, we could help each other on these forums by submiting any tune we are wondering about as we compose them and see if the community can find any close calls. I know I have a couple masterpieces that work so smoothly that I wonder about them. My melody memory is photographic so If I am familiar with a soundtrack, there is no way I will accidentally borrow too much from it. Its the soundtracks that I have only heard once during the movie and not memorized that I\'m never sure of.

Dave

[Tamino]

The only non-plagiaristic way to derive something new from an established work is to analyze it and then come up with your own original work using similar methods and stylings.

Stealing the actual phrases and melodies from scores is just a shortcut used by derivative hacks.

[David Govett]

\"The only non-plagiaristic way to derive something new from an established work is to analyze it and then come up with your own original work using similar methods and stylings.\"

That\'s the key. If its analyzed, you can do that. Its the subconcious memory of heard but non-analyzed tunes that are worrysome.
I have at times borrowed 3 notes from one tune, 2 from another, 2 from a third and the genra of a 4th tune to create something new. I don\'t know if that qualifies me as a hack though. My best material though is when it comes straight out of my head at the keyboard or when driving.
Cheers

[Tamino]

In a sense, all music has come from that subconcious melting pot.

This is a totally seperate issue from concious plagiarism, however.

[falcon1]

Oh, so most of the greatest composers where just going for shortcuts and hacking. Right?

There are many examples of the great ones quoting other themes but it\'s on their terms and their harmony world. Themes are not and can not be a property of X composer, specially if they are short. It\'s the piece it self as a whole and it\'s sections which is their creation which is their property sort of speak.
Never in the history of music (until now in last century perhaps), someone has tried to claim that X theme were his property because in fact it\'s almost guaranteed that there is other theme out there which is or almost identical as your own theme.
To claim property rights over theme is like claim property rights over word or sentence. Which would eventually lead to destruction of books.

So my point is, there\'s nothing against borrowing themes from other works if you use it on your terms - That\'s create your own piece out of it, however the art is to \"hide\" it with your own harmony world and your own ideas about the theme and in the meantime maybe twist the theme.
You may not rip-off few or several bars (whole arrangement/instrumentation) out of piece by another composer - you\'re then stealing his world of perspective on the theme.

We don\'t need to worry much about the fact that another composer may have used our theme in the past, it\'s how we work with it which matters. It\'s no way that whole piece can sound exactly like the piece which our borrowed theme appears in. We have all different perspectives and it will be reflected in our music.

So Tamino in my opinion it\'s a whole lot worse quoting a whole piece or section note by note by another composer.