the way of composing...

[Waywyn]

hello,
i wonder how everybody of you is composing or writing a piece of music, when you already know what the music should be about and stuff, i mean basically how you start to record or to produce it right away from the idea...

are you just sitting and getting the big staff paper out from the big ole treasure chest and start writing with the other hand on the piano or do you load your sequencer, open your samplers full of presets and start clicking or playing notes over the keyboard rightaway ? images/icons/grin.gif

[Netvudu]

I open the big Sibelius staff from Windows virtual treasure chest and have a real keyboard or guitar in front of the screen.


EDIT: You lost a great chance to title this thread \"The way of the composing fist\" images/icons/tongue.gif

[falcon1]

Here\'s my process which I use most often:

1. Open up Sibelius, or take up a pencil and paper.
2. Write down X many chord harmony progression for the theme.
3. Create the theme.
4. Decide on form and style.
5. Develop the grand plan (key changes etc.), often it changes a lot during development of the music.
6. Write the music down, use theory etc. orchestrate it \"on-fly\".
7. If I\'m satisfied with the piece, I save a copy as a .mid file for further production in Sonar.
8. Use Sonar to add expression etc. to make the music more a life. Of course Gigastudio is by then open and ready for play.
9. Record the music dry using CoolEdit Pro.
10. Use CoolEdit to mix, add reverb etc.
11. Save as .wav and a copy as a .mp3

Often I\'ll go back after few weeks if I\'m not happy with the piece. In general this is what I do most often.

Btw. I input the notes with my mousebutton. images/icons/grin.gif

Hope this helps!

[A_Sapp]

Ya know, it boggles my mind why a person would buy Gigastudio, and just run a sequence that was notated in Sibelius, Finale, ect, THROUGH Gigastudio. I mean, the whole point (to me) in buying Gigastudio and sound libraries is to create realistic sounding music, right? In my experience, that\'s near impossible to do if you just notate a piece, convert to a .mid file, open it up in the sequencer, and assign the Gigastudio instruments. Weird...

Anyhow, there are many methods you can use when you go about composing. I usually just sit at the keyboard, take a deep breath, and just begin composing. When I\'m away from the computer, I usually resort to pen and paper and jot down the entire sketch of the piece. Some of the notes may be wrong when I write it, but at least when I get home and look at it, I\'ll realize the idea that I did have when writing it.

If I don\'t have manuscript paper, sometimes I\'ll just jot down a description of the piece. I\'ll write little orchestration notes here and there, describe how I want the piece to crescendo or whatever.

I think the most popular way to grab ideas is to bring a tape recorder along everywhere you go, and whenever an idea pops in your head, press record and sing, hum, wail, ect.

[falcon1]

A_Sapp, this is just my approach and it\'s working for me - Other people just need to find their own approach.

You can let Sibelius play sound with instruments in Gigastudio. images/icons/wink.gif However, my point by using Gigastudio and libs is mainly to allow me to hear rough sound of what it would or could sound like in real performance. I compose my music for live performance not for computer generated performance.

Btw. I said that I use Sonar to add the expressions etc. images/icons/grin.gif

[Waywyn]

yes, like A_Sap says, there are many ways to start composing.

I work pretty similar, sometimes i have an idea before i go to sleep and then i have a little paper beside my bed and mostly write only the notes in letters and some rhythm figures to not forget the stuff or i humm or sing it in my MD Player...

but mostly i start to compose right away...i have the sound and the melody in my head and just keep going to get everything on my computer. also i do kind of layouting by using a midilike preset and start to compose (because on paper you definitely can\'t try and experiment).

sometimes there are cool ideas and kind of experimental changes and chords i\'d never think of. i dont mean that my pieces are completely at accident and with no kind of skill, but sometimes you have these nice \"aha\" effects and i think its worth trying around with different kinds of notes and progressions...

[folk prophet]

I develop melodies first. Always!! I think and think and think. If I\'m around a computer, sometimes I\'ll throw in ideas in a sequencer (Cubase or MasterTracks Pro). Otherwise I\'ll jot it down with numbered intervals - or notation if I have music paper.

By melodies I don\'t necessarilly mean melodic melodies. Sometimes the pieces I do don\'t have actual singable melodies. But, nonetheless, I do the melody first.

I generally try not to contrive these melodies from any technique...but, rather, just try and get a feeling in my brain (like \'mysterious\' or \'battle\' or \'fear\' or something) and then just sing, sing, sing. Usually I\'ll come up with around 10 or so before I settle in on one I want to develop. 9 out of 10 won\'t live up to my sense of perfectionism.

Secondly, I determine what I want to do with the orchestrations -- very generally, that is. I set up most of my orchestrations divided into 4 catogories:

1: Melody (Including mono-rhythmic harmonies)
2: The core rhythm (usually what the bass parts play - I haven\'t really decided what to call this yet. Any ideas?)
3: Counterpoints
4: Fills (glissandos, runs, brass hits, etc...and most of the non-melodic percussion.)

Each of these can have alternate counterpoints and harmonies. I decide how to design each of these based on the flavor of the piece.

So, take an anthem, for example. The melody might be developed in triplets. The core would be bass instrument hits on beats 1 and 3 of the first measure and beats 1, 2 and 3 of the second measure... (bum --- bum --- bum bum bum ---) ...developing stylistically from there. The counterpoint would be in the higher strings perhaps. Let\'s say, quarter-note ascending lines interspersed with 16 note scales or arpeggios, constantly gaining dissonance as it goes. Then add fills where they\'re needed.

However, were the song slow and romantic, the melody might be, say, in quarter and half notes with a few eigth notes between. The core, then, might be solid half notes in just low strings -- with, perhaps, a few pickup eigth notes. Simple, slightly offset rythms by the horns might take on the counterpoint role (though maybe not until the second time through the melody). And fills would mostly consist of harp gliss/cymbal rolls, etc... Additionally I might add, perhaps, high tied, whole note, tremolo strings (which I\'d consider, in my way of thinking, a secondary counterpoint due to it\'s rythmic difference from the melody.)

Mind you, I don\'t figure out notes here. Just an approximate of what I want. I haven\'t even thought about chords yet.

Once I have the basic design down, I pull up my sequencer and start putting in parts...usually 4 to 8 measures at a time, starting with the melody and then filling in all orchestrations. Then moving to the next part. I hardly ever figure out chords. I do it entirely by ear. If it doesn\'t sound right I tweak it till it does. Sometimes I\'ll figure out what chord I want to use...according to the bass note and the inversion and whatnot...but even then I don\'t plan out my voice leading or anything. I let my ear do the work in that regard.

Of course this doesn\'t take into account the possibility of needing to time the music to a sequence or other such issues, which would, obviously, require planning before sitting down and sequencing. And then, of course, there\'s always the editing/tweaking/changing/pulling your hair out/changing again/throwing it away and starting over factors.

[zquarles]

I vary on starting chord progressions or melodies, but I always start behind the keyboard. I rarely write stuff down, unless I really have to visualize something.

I don\'t know if that is good or bad...

[folk prophet]

Originally posted by zquarles:
I vary on starting chord progressions or melodies, but I always start behind the keyboard. I rarely write stuff down, unless I really have to visualize something.

I don\'t know if that is good or bad... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">There is no good or bad answer. If the final product is up to snuff then what difference does it make...oh...wait...that\'s a fascist concept, isn\'t it. Well, in the world of \'how to compose\' I guess I do support the idea that the ends justify the means. images/icons/smile.gif

Every composer has their own method. And the very idea of someone saying that your way is wrong and my way is right is silly.

So, you have to decide for yourself if its good or bad. Does it work for you. Are you quick enough at it to be satisfied? Is the final product phenomenal? Then it\'s good...for you.

[tonylombardi]

I tend to work like falcon1. I\'m using Sibelius first.
I think the way you work depends on your priorities. Is realistic music the most important? Or is great music more important, regardless of whether or not you\'ll be able to make it sound incredibly realistic?

If realism is your main goal, you probably should use a sequencer from the start. This is only because libraries today, as advanced as they are, still aren\'t able to reproduce every idea you may have very realistically.

If you\'re just trying to make great music, it\'s way easier to use a notation program with a simple general MIDI set than to use a sequencer. It\'s just way faster to write music that way, and edit the notes and articulations, and see all the instruments at once. Composing is hard enough without having to deal with using dozens of patches per instrument.

I working on a piano concerto that I wrote in Sibelius. I exported it as .mid and am using VSL and Sonar to make a realistic version.

I guess a good summary is that some people compose FOR the samples they have, while others just compose and hopefully their samples will work for what they\'ve written.

Anthony Lombardi
www.mp3.com/alombardi (\"http://www.mp3.com/alombardi\")

[devinmaxwell]

i write out the form of the piece on graph paper with colored pencils. then i start dealing with melody, harmony, etc... it makes writing music more like painting by numbers.

if i\'m doing something interactive, then i develop the whole system first, then start dealing with the incidental stuff like rhythm and themes and such. with games, if you have a great theme and a poorly designed music system, it might not sound all that great.


-dev

[ed buller]

Hi

this is what I do:

1. Fart around on the piano until I have something I like. Riff,chord progression whatever.

2. Decide on mood and where it should go.

3. Determine length. Or as Kurt Vonegut put it \"start as close to the end as possible\"

4. Learn to play it on the piano by heart.

5.Put it in Sibelius as a piano score.

4. Make it Four hand.

5. Orchestrate it in Sibelius.

6. Save each Instrument as a midi file

7.Import it into Pro-Tools

8. Record the piano version live into Pro-Tools

9. Click map the Piano Version audio, beat by beat to catch all the timing.

10.Import the midi files of my orchestra whilst keeping the midi beat map I have just created.

11.Fiddle with the midi of all my instruments until it starts to sound real.

12. Record the instuments.

13.Mix it


ED
graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif

[Damon]

Originally posted by A_Sapp:
I think the most popular way to grab ideas is to bring a tape recorder along everywhere you go, and whenever an idea pops in your head, press record and sing, hum, wail, ect. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hehe, Elfman did this same thing on a plane to meet Tim Burton when he had the theme to Batman in his head graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif .

[ed buller]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by A_Sapp:
I think the most popular way to grab ideas is to bring a tape recorder along everywhere you go, and whenever an idea pops in your head, press record and sing, hum, wail, ect.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hehe, Elfman did this same thing on a plane to meet Tim Burton when he had the theme to Batman in his head[/B]

So he did........shame he did\'nt realize it was \"Journey to the center of the earth\" by Bernard Herrmann.

ed images/icons/wink.gif

[spinach ravioli]

Originally posted by ed buller:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by A_Sapp:
I think the most popular way to grab ideas is to bring a tape recorder along everywhere you go, and whenever an idea pops in your head, press record and sing, hum, wail, ect.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hehe, Elfman did this same thing on a plane to meet Tim Burton when he had the theme to Batman in his head

So he did........shame he did\'nt realize it was \"Journey to the center of the earth\" by Bernard Herrmann.

ed images/icons/wink.gif [/b]<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Well, then shame they both didn\'t realize it was the opening notes to Hindemith\'s Matis der Maler.

[D.DiAnda]

Here\'s a description of my process (sometimes):

1. Spend a day or two listening to the type of music that I plan to write. Also, start sketching (verbally) ideas on the overall form and what the different sections will be like.
I might also come up with some rough themes and/or progressions at this point. Like devinmaxwell, I like to have things well planned before I start really writing. Of course, in the end my piece has very little to do with my original plan, but it helps me stay focused in the beginning to have a plan.

2.Open Sonar and set up soundfonts for all of the instruments I want to use. (I know, I ought to make templates). I find that if I start using gigasamples too soon I start getting bogged down with details. (Also, my PC is showing it\'s age, and also gets bogged by too many samples).

3.Write music. images/icons/grin.gif
I really don\'t have a typical process that I use when writing... sometimes it starts with a simple rhythm/ostinato... I might start adding melodic ideas above it, then counter melodies. Or, I might start with melodic or harmonic ideas, and start writing some variations in other sections, based on the feel of each section as outlined in my masterplan. Anyway, I could go on forever listing possibilities... the point is, it\'s different each time. I use logic and planning on the first two steps, but this step is the one that calls for creative and flexible thinking and just can\'t be done in a predictable, overly controlled way.

4.Start choosing samples, adding expression, and generally making the piece more musical. Like falcon, I type in a lot of notes, so I have to do a lot of tweaking to get a more natural feeling piece. I\'m trying to get away from entering notes with my mouse, but even at slow speeds I\'m a crappy keyboard player. On the other hand, there are times when I\'m not really concerned with trying to make people believe that my music was performed live. Though it may boggle Aaron\'s mind, I guess I have to admit that it is not my first priority. images/icons/smile.gif

5.Mixing... Most of my experience as a musician/composer has been with acoustic instruments and pencil + paper, so this is a confusing area for me. I do everything in Sonar, and it seems to work out fine... though many here might disagree if they heard my music graemlins/tounge_images/icons/smile.gif
I really don\'t understand why people take their music out of the sequencer for the final recording/mixing images/icons/confused.gif Maybe as I learn more, it will make sense to me (?)

So, basically the only useful tips I have are:
- To spend time before starting the composition, listening to other music and writing down rough ideas about form and mood.
- Use a simple set of sounds (like sf2, or even plain old GM) at first to avoid getting distracted with details.

[Marsdy]

Here\'s a typical day here.

1. Get up early.
2. Look at the calendar, specifically the date that has \"milestone\" written in big red letters. This adds perspective to the day\'s proceedings.
2. Load up a really good, extensive template.
3. Write around three minutes of music based on the client\'s explicit and comprehensive requirements or, to put that another way, rip-off the style guide CD they sent without infringing copyright.
4. Deliver the above.
5. Spend a couple of hours watching a movie, eat something, walk the girlfriend, have sex with the dog, whatever, in the interests of retaining sanity.
6. Go to bed thanking someone, somewhere for being a lucky enough bugger to be writing music all day images/icons/smile.gif

[The Fat Man]

Hello!

Dave Govett, whose office is just down the hall from me, peered over the ferret-proof door and suggested I post to this forum.

This is a pretty interesting thread!

I generally don\'t like talking about equipment, since people can get very short-sighted on the subject, but I am excited to say I\'ve evolved a \"rig\" that suits the way I like to approach music.

It\'s not too loyal to any one software, platform, timbre, or anything. It\'s kind-of graphic intensive--I\'ve got it posted to a PDF here.

http://www.fatman.com/ftpguest/morsels/samples/0094_38%20An%20Effective%20Method.pdf (\"http://www.fatman.com/ftpguest/morsels/samples/0094_38%20An%20Effective%20Method.pdf\")

Please pardon the fact that this is a chapter from my new book, \"The Fat Man on Game Audio.\" If you\'re interested in more of how I\'ve tried to compose, I invite you to investigate the book. Info at http://www.fatman.com, (\"http://www.fatman.com,\") or on Amazon.com.

Thanks for this thread!!!

Best,
FAT

[Waywyn]

hey fat images/icons/smile.gif

glad to see that you posting to this thread. i heard a lof of your stuff and i really like it...

also thx for the .pdf file...
i am downloading it right now images/icons/smile.gif

always cool to see approaches or views of other people and as long as everybody is open minded you can gather a lot of information and inspiration on the next job or composition...

your homepagelink isnt working because the comma sneaked in there images/icons/wink.gif but i guess everybody will recognize it images/icons/grin.gif

[dwdonehoo]

Getting started has always been the hardest thing for me, because I know that when I get going, I will be obsessed and I will work to the point of not being able to walk. Twelve hours or more in the chair goes just like that.
Having something to see to write to really helps. I recently did a game cinematic, so I could watch the movie and then put my feet up and compose the themes in my head, go to the keyboard and sketch the themes out, then begin blocking out the events by time-stamp, then really begin composing to the movie. The results of this recent trailer sounds like this:
http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusiclinks/RM_Savage1.mp3 (\"http://www.sierra-trails.com/radarmusiclinks/RM_Savage1.mp3\")
If you listen to this you can obviously tell it is backscore, with certain musical events timed to on-screen events.

Usually though, in the simplest form, I either write melodies and build chords around them, or build chord progressions and create melodies within them. Basic thing like \'chords are built by thirds and move by fifths\' seems pretty natural to me.
I try to avoid creating anything sitting in front of my gear when starting any project. It is better to compose in my head, first, so I don\'t block. Once the project has built up steam, well, that is a different matter and things move right along.
I also do a lot of listening to OPM*, because I believe music is evolutionary. A lot of musical problems have already been solved for me, so I use the past to further my future. Also, others always inspire me to do better and improve my sound. I don\'t have a lot of ego about all this: either someone likes what I do, or they don\'t. It is the customer and my standards that have to be satisfied. Constructive criticism (and critical listening) is good (and ego should not get in the way of this), destructive criticism is always bad (and should be ignored).

Anyway, to sum up, for me, the worst way to start anything is to be in front of my gear.

As a side note, I am getting to be a big fan of templates on the large size of things. Oh sure, you have to change everything every time you add new sounds, but at least most of the work is already done. You sure can get down to work quicker.

* Other Peoples Music.

[dwdonehoo]

I just noticed that \"THE\" \"FAT\" \"MAN\" has posted, and I am thrilled he showed up. Hey Fat, if you think real hard, you will remember who I am. images/icons/grin.gif

I hear tell that along with his extensive game credits, Fat Man is doing music for slot machines! Now that sounds interesting.
All gamers should visit his site and do some reading. I should go to one of his Bar-B-Q\'s, if only for the food, but I am a little afraid of being in Texas. heh heh... images/icons/shocked.gif

[David Govett]

Nothing to be afraid of in Texas. We got plenty of guns to protect ya!

Sometimes the samples can really help inspire some good music. I can adlib and play around and come up with things pretty quick that way. The best stuff however is things I work out in my head and am inspired by.
Later

Dave

[dwdonehoo]

Originally posted by David Govett:
Nothing to be afraid of in Texas. We got plenty of guns to protect ya! <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">YAAARGH! That\'s what I am afraid of! And I heard that only two things come from texas*….

Hey FAT MAN! What does \"Simulataneous\" mean???? images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Anybody having trouble DL-ing my link above, it has now been fixed. I am now looking through the FAT .PDF, BTW.

* Obscure movie quote. images/icons/wink.gif

[David Govett]

I worked with a girl at a General Cinema Theater (I was a projectionist) and her dad was a fellow Marine during Vietnam and that guy on Full Metal Jacket was his actual Drill Instructor. Turns out that actor did that for real way back when. I think he was the film consultant but he was so much more authentic that they used him instead of the actor they had hired.
His role is just hysterical! (and accurate)

\"Jesus H Christ, what the hell is a jelly dougnut doing in your footlocker!!!\"

I\'ve seen that exact scene played out in person and it is not a pretty sight. The whole group gets f\'d over for it. Its pretty funny now but really sucks when it is happening.

Later
Dave

[vaultcomplex]

Originally posted by dwdonehoo:
And I heard that only two things come from texas*….

* Obscure movie quote. images/icons/wink.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I wouldn\'t call Full Metal Jacket an obscure movie.

[The Fat Man]

Oddly enough, but not surprisingly, I wrote this article in the \'80s that ties together the drill sergeant theme with the \"how do you write music\" theme.


http://skreed.com/life/lunch/lunch_a01.html (\"http://skreed.com/life/lunch/lunch_a01.html\")

Go to:

\"Song, Arrangement, Recording: Knowing the Difference\"

And Dave, I\'ve been meaning to talk to you about that jelly doughnut in the break room...

[folk prophet]

Hey Fat Man. I think I met you once at GDC or E3 or something. I\'m sure you don\'t remember me as I was just one of those gazillion of faces there. But anyhow...

Good to see you here on the forum.

[The Fat Man]

Thanks!!

Sorry, in fact, I don\'t remember ever meeting somebody named folkprophet.

Step one to promoting yourself...use your name. Step two: Use your nickname instead.

images/icons/wink.gif
--The Fat Man

PS

Here\'s more unfollowable advice on how to market yourself.

http://www.fatman.com/ftpguest/morsels/samples/0094_29%20How%20to%20get%20work.pdf (\"http://www.fatman.com/ftpguest/morsels/samples/0094_29%20How%20to%20get%20work.pdf\")

[folk prophet]

Originally posted by The Fat Man:
Thanks!!

Sorry, in fact, I don\'t remember ever meeting somebody named folkprophet.

Step one to promoting yourself...use your name. Step two: Use your nickname instead.

images/icons/wink.gif
--The Fat Man

PS

Here\'s more unfollowable advice on how to market yourself.

http://www.fatman.com/ftpguest/morsels/samples/0094_29%20How%20to%20get%20work.pdf (\"http://www.fatman.com/ftpguest/morsels/samples/0094_29%20How%20to%20get%20work.pdf\") <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">But don\'t you just love anonymity? images/icons/grin.gif

Anyhow, my name is Charles Nielson. I was with a company called Yobro Productions. I think we may have even given you a demo CD. But that\'s all done with now. We went out of business with the economy\'s failings in the last few years.

[MDesigner]

Hey all.. just surfacing to contribute to the thread images/icons/smile.gif

I have a few different methods of starting out, one of which consists of just sitting at the keyboard screwing with different samples that fit the mood of what I\'m working on. What usually works the best for me, though, is picturing the scene/level/whatever in my head while driving, and start humming themes that might fit well. Once I get a theme/main melody I like, I hum it into my cell phone\'s recorder, and store for later. Then I start thinking about which instrument(s) might carry that main theme.. usually for action games, I go with trombones, horns, trumpets, or violins, or a mix of those.. something that lends it self to stepping out of the mix and carrying a melody well. I almost always try to compose around a strong theme.. in my opinion, it\'s the foundation of a game soundtrack, and it should be memorable.

Then I go home and dump all this into Sonar... and then the journey begins. images/icons/smile.gif

[Gulliver]

Well, like some folks out there composing is like pulling teeth for me (thank god for orchestration work), but if I\'m at it I stick to one or two rules: Stay the hell away from the dreaded keyboard and avoid the use of any fancy samples at the very beginning.

Some people have the ability to sit down, and after a few rounds at the keys, belt out coherent tunes. I\'m not one of them images/icons/smile.gif

I find that the early use of higher-quality samples (with many articulations) tend to almost always (for me) lead to muddy writing. My theory is if a plain-venilla MIDI version of your work sounds clean and is half-listenable to enjoyable, than the end result with the full samples and their articulations will end up oustanding (and the bonus is a clean MIDI file a copywriter can work off for possible live recording)

Start with a blank workslate (maybe in notation mode or piano scroll), jot down your phrases, melodies, harmonic progressions in clean form just like you would if you were doing pen & paper. Tryout a few permutations and combinations along with your initial orchesration ideas. Resist the urge to fire up Gigastudio and stick that wonderful 200-layer velocity split sample on that oboe line or whatever.

This works for me but each person has their own way that suits them.

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by A_Sapp:
Ya know, it boggles my mind why a person would buy Gigastudio, and just run a sequence that was notated in Sibelius, Finale, ect, THROUGH Gigastudio. I mean, the whole point (to me) in buying Gigastudio and sound libraries is to create realistic sounding music, right? In my experience, that\'s near impossible to do if you just notate a piece, convert to a .mid file, open it up in the sequencer, and assign the Gigastudio instruments. Weird...<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I guess that might come off as weird but actively including Gigastudio and all of your samples in your actual writing process, or in other words selecting patches and such as a you write along is like playing with fire, to me atleast.. Too many possible destractions, plus a false sense that what your putting together actually sounds good.

I guess an extreme example would be Jerry Goldsmith standing on the Fox Scoring stage and ordering the different sections of the orchestra to play as he writes along. That sounds absolutely nuts but that\'s the way I see it. Gigastudio and software samplers are very important tools but i\'m weary about where they fit in the composition process.

It\'s one hell\'va tool for trying out your orchesrations though!

[dwdonehoo]

Hey George,

Your book(s) got a good mention (by Tommy) at the G.A.N.G. meeting last night. Expect some orders! images/icons/smile.gif