There is a moral here somewhere...

[dwdonehoo]

I thought this was interesting:
http://www.cinemusic.net/blog/troy_statement.html (\"http://www.cinemusic.net/blog/troy_statement.html\")
James Horner is now doing the music...and has about 2 1/2 months to do it.

[Scott Cairns]

Wow, what a read. I wonder if there is more to the story than that though? It just seems that the director did such a backflip.

By the sounds of things Horner only actually has 1 and a half months if the movie is coming out in May.

[Houston Haynes]

There\'s always more to the story that the composer doesn\'t know. How long did the director get poison poured in his ear before his worst fears were confirmed at the screening? The way it was portrayed was that everything was hunky dorey until the focus group chimed in. I find it hard to believe that the director would completely lose his nerve from what could be a bad audience sampling.

How was it that Yared let the screening run (with his temp) without being present to manage and react to the reaction? There was definitely a horse hitched to a wagon at the event, and he was not there to pull on the reigns. That was his major mistake. With a seed change in the delivery process of the score, the composer should have been more present at those critical junctures. That\'s just good project management.

I\'m completely blown away that a body of work of that magnitude was canned in order to re-work a picture. It sounds to me (and to my wife - a screenwriter) that they found a dog of a film at that screening and are blaming the music for it. It will be interesting to see how Troy plays with the new music. Our guess is that it will be a flop, as nothing like this goes down without some larger issues looming.

[robin123]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was interesting:
http://www.cinemusic.net/blog/troy_statement.html (\"http://www.cinemusic.net/blog/troy_statement.html\")
James Horner is now doing the music...and has about 2 1/2 months to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would any director do that? destroy a year long effort....somethings are simply understandable...

[robin123]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds to me (and to my wife - a screenwriter) that they found a dog of a film at that screening and are blaming the music for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

i feel the same way...

[charles]

i was just looking at all the credits

didnt realize that the musical aspects of the score were so spread around

or are their composers that do it all, orchestrate etc

[Scott Cairns]

I may be oversimplifying a bit, but a film composer is essentially payed for his/her ability to write a theme or mood that fits each suitable moment in the film.

After that, you have a team of people to take the burden off the composer, orchestrators, copyists, music editors, engineers, studio assistants, etc, etc.

Many composers do in fact orchestrate, for someone like Williams it would be a part of the writing process Im sure.

I tend to think of a top level composer as a CEO of a musical company; at certain points he has to delegate things out, but he essentially steers the \"musical ship\".

[SWL]

Wow .... that\'s too bad, i\'m sure it was a fantastic score!!! Yared is very talented!!

I can vision it now ........ Horner cutting and pasting himself (again). Should only take him a few weeks to recycle his same ol\' tired themes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[charles]

[ QUOTE ]
I may be oversimplifying a bit, but a film composer is essentially payed for his/her ability to write a theme or mood that fits each suitable moment in the film.

After that, you have a team of people to take the burden off the composer, orchestrators, copyists, music editors, engineers, studio assistants, etc, etc.

Many composers do in fact orchestrate, for someone like Williams it would be a part of the writing process Im sure.

I tend to think of a top level composer as a CEO of a musical company; at certain points he has to delegate things out, but he essentially steers the \"musical ship\".

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Scott

its not something i spent to much time thinking about, because i have mainly concentrated on the classics, but it still poses some interesting questions about comparing film music and the classics, for example the orchestrator has to put him or herself in the shoes of the composer, which is very different when the composer is also the orchestror, i guess Ravels orchestration of Mussorgski\'s Pictures at an Exhibition is the best example of this.

[David Govett]

That is just stupid and unexcusable! All the sneaking around and hiring other composers before they even talked with this guy is just spineless and weird. I\'m surprised they didn\'t they lock him out of his office and change his keys and combination & escort him out of the building? I do hope he got paid for the work.
I may just stay home when that one comes out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Dave

[filmtvbiz]

I remember back a few years ago, we had several projects. One of them was a CBS show we\'re we doing the Music Supervision, so we talked daily to the producer.

The ratings for the show where in the TOP 20, but after 6 episodes, they decided to cancel it, not becuase of the ratings, but due to the viewership leaving CBS and going somewhere else after the half hour (something you don\'t normally hear about as they needed to hold that one hour slot in order to bring on the 1 hour drama thereafter).

Be that as it may, the producer calls us up frantic (like we could have done anything (grin)), as the previous day he was on the lot, normal day of shooting, then into the edit bay, but the next day, he drives to work and his parking space is GONE, repainted with another name, new sign on his personal space and his keys no longer worked (doors locked). That\'s how he found out his show was cancelled.

The Troy project was a bad rap, and probably the result and decision of one, maybe two individuals and spread (fear) like a wildfire (people pleasing yes men/women), and the budget allowed such a compromise. However, with that in mind, the producer probably had a inside scoop for a little while, even though he kept up appearances until they where sure that they had made the right decision, which of course, doesn\'t mean it is.

Sometimes (rarely) music (and editing) can save a \"bad\" film, especially with a good soundtrack (songs and singles rights), and if budget allows, the score can make a difference, but these types of \"saves\" are few and far between.

Other times something looks great on paper (script) but the director KILLS it (seen this a few times), and finally, I\'ve seen a great picture that should have been edited more (too long) ended up becoming a bad flick (or art film) due to it being too long.

90% of this is people business and you need to be in the loop all the time while being cautious, and always, ALWAYS express your works (faith in it) as the best!

and never, ever give up.

just my thoughts and I\'ve had too much coffee.

cheers,
frankii

[Brian W. Ralston]

Actually....Horner\'s score for Troy is already written and they are recording it as we speak (April 10-22).

It is being done at ToddAO and sounds pretty great.

http://scoring.toddao.com (\"http://scoring.toddao.com\")

If you have windows media player and the secret password, you can hear the score streaming as they record it.

<font color=\"white\"> The password is equ1s</font>

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

p.s. was that subtle enough?

[Scott Cairns]

Brian, I tried \"secretpassword\" and it didnt work. Can you resend? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Marcussen]

Hi.. when is the next session? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mathis]

I mean, hey, what kind of films did Peterson after he left good ol´ germany? He doesn´t deserve a fine score anyway.

[Brian W. Ralston]

[ QUOTE ]
Brian, I tried \"secretpassword\" and it didnt work. Can you resend? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It\'s all there in black and white. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Scott Cairns]

Ah, I see thanks!

[WayneSim]

Thanks Brian.

All I could see was an empty room. I\'ll try again in a few hours and then a few more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

We\'d have to see the film to know. From what I read, from Gabriel Yared\'s brief description, the first thing that came to my mind was how specific a tangent he decided to follow. And how ponderous it all seemed to sound from the description. While reading along, I was thinking, man, this sounds kind of distracting.

But we\'d just have to see it. Which won\'t happen.

It may not have worked, is the point. If they were looking for a certain generic-epic quality, and got something that called too much attention to itself, this decision may have been ripped from the director\'s hands (along with any chance he\'ll work for them again). The fact that they got Horner in for the rewrite speaks volumes.

There\'s two sides to every story. With the amount of cash this had to involve, you have to at least consider the possibility that there was a reason it happened. And, that ultimately, the score got dumped but what really happened was that the director himself got a no-confidence vote. The trickle-down just happened to take out the composer.

Chilling, all the same. I just got an e-mail from the director of the film I\'m working on, and they need a DVD with the first ten minutes of the film (which is done) to show the investors that are paying my check. This story certainly hits home...because until now, I\'ve had the director and editor in the studio (both of whom love the music), but never any of the moneyfolk. Luckily, I\'m the \"replacement guy,\" and what I\'ve done is a significant upgrade over what they had. Still...

[Marcussen]

Good luck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Brian W. Ralston]

Troy session musicians are starting to trickle in now for today\'s session.

They are also currently mixing the movie\'s pop song right now from a previous session. That is what is being heard over the stream. Interesting to hear them start and stop and scrub the musical sections and hear the changes being made as they do it on their pro tools rig.

[Ned Bouhalassa]

It\'s working now, Brian. This is so amazing, to hear and see this. Thank you very much for this opportunity! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Bruce A. Richardson]

If ever there was a lesson as to why middle-aged men should not write pop songs, you are seeing it play in real time.

[Frederick]

[ QUOTE ]
I just got an e-mail from the director of the film I\'m working on, and they need a DVD with the first ten minutes of the film (which is done) to show the investors that are paying my check. This story certainly hits home...because until now, I\'ve had the director and editor in the studio (both of whom love the music), but never any of the moneyfolk. Luckily, I\'m the \"replacement guy,\" and what I\'ve done is a significant upgrade over what they had. Still...

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, that\'s incredible Bruce! Good luck!

[Elfen]

Wow thanks you! Like Ned I really enjoyed.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Horner\'s got a hell of an up-ictus, I\'m noticing. Not a Malko man, apparently.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just got an e-mail from the director of the film I\'m working on, and they need a DVD with the first ten minutes of the film (which is done) to show the investors that are paying my check. This story certainly hits home...because until now, I\'ve had the director and editor in the studio (both of whom love the music), but never any of the moneyfolk. Luckily, I\'m the \"replacement guy,\" and what I\'ve done is a significant upgrade over what they had. Still...

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, that\'s incredible Bruce! Good luck!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, unless they decide to s***can me and hire Horner, haha.

Thanks, though. I\'m having a good time, even though film work definitely runs against the grain of my attention deficit disorder.

[SWL]

[ QUOTE ]
If ever there was a lesson as to why middle-aged men should not write pop songs, you are seeing it play in real time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehehehe .....

Also .. makes me wonder .... Yared composing in this style ??? I doubt it .. maybe that is why he was booted nothing to tug on the heart-string of Common-Joe-Film-Goer.

[jzuker]

Jerry Goldsmith (Legend), Alex North (Kubrick\'s 2001), Randy Newman (Air Force One)...all have had scores rejected.
This is not uncommon even for the greats, in fact, its sort of a defacto \"purple heart\" for film composers.
Nevertheless, it does not make it any less disheartening, especially after such a massive effort, but the talented and strong somehow survive it.

I think it was generous that Mr. Yared revealed that it was not just his own exhaustive work that was rejected but also that of his large support team.

Also, you can\'t fault him too much for releasing unfinished or unpolished tracks for the preview/temp score. He\'s going the extra mile for a project he believes in and for a director he seemed to have strong support from at the time.


John Z.

[Elfen]

[ QUOTE ]
If ever there was a lesson as to why middle-aged men should not write pop songs, you are seeing it play in real time.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

Hehehehe .....

Also .. makes me wonder .... Yared composing in this style ??? I doubt it .. maybe that is why he was booted nothing to tug on the heart-string of Common-Joe-Film-Goer.

[/ QUOTE ]



Your really hard on the guy! He\'s got barely 2 months to do an entire score. I think he do a pretty good job for the time he have. Not a lot of composer in the world can do that except the pros!

[Brian W. Ralston]

They are breaking for lunch now. Back again at 2:30 PST.

[Elfen]

Thank you so much for this Brian! Really amazing sound...No word\'s good enough!

[Brian W. Ralston]

Anytime I can share some information which helps to make one\'s day....unproductive.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Brian, allow me to respectfully disagree with you! I can think of few experiences as helpful to me as being able to \'sit-in\' to a recording session of this calibre. I hope the \'keyhole\' will stay open for the next few days! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Marcussen]

The current music playing on the screen... is that horners, Yareds or some other placeholder?

[SWL]

Ummm, it\'s certainly Horner\'s ---- it is Stargate Modified ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Much respect though! This hits theatres in less than 4 weeks!

Can ya sense the pressure ? And they need to replace that vocalist during lunch, go call Lisa Gerrard .... gal they have now sounds like a Yodler.

Oh yeah, thanks Brian ;-) hope ya don\'t get into too much trouble.

[Brian W. Ralston]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif True Ned...true...

Watching the stream on this lunch break with previously recorded cues synched to picture and with dialogue....I am having flashbacks of Kevin Costner in Robin Hood: Prince of Theives or Harrison Ford in K-19. Now we can add Brad Pitt to the list of popular actors who\'s accents do not match those of the actors around them.

Oh well..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Ed]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, it\'s certainly Horner\'s ---- it is Stargate Modified ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a contradiction, Stargate was David Arnold! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ed

[Crystal]

Just a thing :


(From cinemusic)

[ QUOTE ]
I apologise to those reading this who will never get to hear this score. Unfortunately it is not my property

[/ QUOTE ]


You don\'t own the music you write, in US ?

[SWL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, it\'s certainly Horner\'s ---- it is Stargate Modified ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a contradiction, Stargate was David Arnold! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ed

[/ QUOTE ]

Oppps ;-) --- ok, then Braveheart Recycled /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[retroz]

have tried everything black and white on that page to no avail! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

help?

[retroz]

Im speaking about Troy of course.

[Marcussen]

Check your PM /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jazzbozo]

Glad to know I\'m not the only film music geek enjoying this. The main theme ain\'t bad for this type of film. Sure, it mines the old cliched Byzantine-type scales, but at least it\'s easier to listen to than, say, Titanic. I feel for poor Gabriel Yared, but I\'m pretty sure this is what the producers wanted from the get go, and Wolfgang was just seeing if something outside the norm would work until reality hit, and a real movie audience (and the money) prevailed sense onto him.

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Isn\'t this very much like what happened to Michael Danna and The Hulk? I suppose one can\'t blame the directors for trying to push the envelope. It\'s just a shame that it takes so long sometimes before the producers make up their minds (and get cold feet). I, for one, would love to hear something more adventurous (no pun intended) for the big historical epics, and superhero movies.

[Houston Haynes]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn\'t this very much like what happened to Michael Danna and The Hulk? I suppose one can\'t blame the directors for trying to push the envelope. It\'s just a shame that it takes so long sometimes before the producers make up their minds (and get cold feet). I, for one, would love to hear something more adventurous (no pun intended) for the big historical epics, and superhero movies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you could be right - re: Danna and The Hulk... I listened to part of the session today and it sounded a bit like \"Dances with Stargate\" with a bit of Arabic scales mixed in to taste. However, it could be the thing that fits the way the picture was made... That said - I didn\'t cough up $10 to see The Hulk, and I\'ll probably only see Troy if it\'s presented at an SCL screening. The Iliad was a bummer of a story anyway - my liberal arts college upbringing has already let me know the spoilers... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I\'m with you on hearing more \"daring\" treatment for music that runs with epic tales, but then again - daring isn\'t often trusted to pay the bills in Hollywood.

[WayneSim]

I been watching a little bit of it now. They are recording a percussionist.

Well now I\'m going to be well over my download limit this month. I only have 2 of 16gb left. And now LIVE streams..... But I dont mind paying to see these live streams. It is very educational. I cant wait to see the whole Orchestra in there.

How is it steaming for everyone? Most of the sounds works fine. But the video only streams about 30% of the time, 70% are still shots. I guess I need a faster connection than 512 ADSL.

[Brian W. Ralston]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a thing :
You don\'t own the music you write, in US ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Crystal....it depends on the deal contracted with the composer. But, about 100% of the time for any Hollywood picture like this one, the music is owned by studio. The composer is a work for hire. (ex....Danny Elfman does not own the music to Batman, Warner Brothers ownes it.)

Yared still fulfilled his contract and got paid his fee....the studio just chose to not use his music, but they still own it. Hence, the reason it is so expensive to reject a score (especially if it has already been recorded), cause now they had to come up with the money to pay someone else, and being Horner, he usually gets about $1 Million as a creative fee alone. Then they had to pay for a whole other set of orchestral recordings for his new score.

Sometimes with small independant films, composers can work out a deal to own their music at the end and license it to the film maker for use afterward, but if there is a studio involved, I can pretty much guarantee that will NEVER happen.

[EmmSee]

Thanks for the link + pw Brian! It\'s great to get a birds-eye view of the process.

[RichM]

Will the opportunity to view this process be available again? When? And I must be too dense to figure out the password. I thought I was good with puzzles. A little help (email) would be appreciated. My wife has scored industrials, United Methodist videos, and a special on El Salvadore. She (and I) would be most interested.

Thanks,
Rich

[Martin Hines]

[ QUOTE ]
A little help (email) would be appreciated. Thanks,
Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

His post has text written in a White font, barely readable.

The password is Equis.

[Crystal]

Thanks Brian for your explaination.

It\'s not the same in France, that\'s why I ask.



Regards

[Scott Cairns]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A little help (email) would be appreciated. Thanks,
Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

His post has text written in a White font, barely readable.

The password is Equis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, and change that \"i\" for a \"1\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[musicpete]

Hmmm, if I click the link I only get a white page with this text \"Error: Access is Denied.\" and no possibility to enter a password. Could someone be so nice as to enlighten me? I tried incorporating the pw in the link in various forms but I am simply unable to figure it out...

[RickH]

Well, while it\'s educational and entertaining, I\'m pretty sure they didn\'t have this forum in mind when they set up the feed.
Not to sound like a spoilsport, but I don\'t blame them for shutting it down. It\'s no fun having your bandwidth hijacked.

R.
==

[Gerard Salonga]

I just read the article. Boy this can be a dirty business. Just curious, what are the financial consequences for the composer in a situation like this? I mean, does he get something up front before writing a single note? Does he also get paid in installments as the production of the score progresses? One year is a long time to be dedicated to a singular project, and then have the rug pulled out from under you at the 11th hour. I feel bad for him. I\'m also curious to hear what Petersen has to say about it.

[Marcussen]

Hes paid in full for the work hes done...

[Runyon]

[ QUOTE ]
I just read the article. Boy this can be a dirty business. Just curious, what are the financial consequences for the composer in a situation like this? I mean, does he get something up front before writing a single note? Does he also get paid in installments as the production of the score progresses? One year is a long time to be dedicated to a singular project, and then have the rug pulled out from under you at the 11th hour. I feel bad for him. I\'m also curious to hear what Petersen has to say about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he has a really, really bad business sense, he will be paid a partial fee at the beginning. Yes, installments are normal. But what happened here is far too common. And the change of heart from the director is also all too common. Watch the old movie, The Player, if you want to see typical [censored]-kissing, hollywood style. It\'s over-the-top, but jeeezzzz, not by much. I\'m talking about the way the director was all too happy to \"change his vision\". Big projects like this one have a lot of pressure.

Still, after reading the accounts of the original score, it sounded kind of off to me.

[SWL]

Access denied ....

[Sovereign]

They changed the password. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MDesigner]

No they didn\'t. it\'s equis, not equ1s.

[SWL]

That is still not working either ...

[MDesigner]

equis works - it should say Password Accepted. however, I can\'t connect to the media stream.

[Brian W. Ralston]

Sorry guys....it\'s no longer available to us.

I hope those of you who got to see and learn a bit enjoyed it.

[SWL]

[ QUOTE ]
I watched it for most of yesterday, it was cool. Although my memory sucks so i\'ve forgotten a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes! Musician/Composers with bad memory is not a good mix /// perhaps you need to lay down the pipe!!!

Thanks Brian! Very enjoyable!!

[MDesigner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I watched it for most of yesterday, it was cool. Although my memory sucks so i\'ve forgotten a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes! Musician/Composers with bad memory is not a good mix /// perhaps you need to lay down the pipe!!!

Thanks Brian! Very enjoyable!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, why is a musician/composer w/ a bad memory not a good mix?

[EmmSee]

It was great while it lasted... Thanks again.

[EmmSee]

[ QUOTE ]
equis works - it should say Password Accepted. however, I can\'t connect to the media stream.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup... maybe it\'ll be working later on.

[MDesigner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious, why is a musician/composer w/ a bad memory not a good mix?

[/ QUOTE ]


Having a bad memory doesn\'t mix well with many things!

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait.. what were you talking about again? I don\'t remember /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Hm.. I do have a bad memory, that\'s why I was asking. I can\'t remember what I had for dinner two nights ago. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I guess my memory is great for some things, bad for others. I can remember people\'s names/faces really well. But hmm, that new movie I saw a few weeks ago.. who did I see that with? No idea. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Runyon]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry guys....it\'s no longer available to us.

I hope those of you who got to see and learn a bit enjoyed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wonder if they noticed the protools rig. Nah, couldn\'t be.

[Houston Haynes]

Hollywood Reporter article on Troy (\"http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/reviews/review_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000502650\")

My guess remains - the reason why the first score was thrown out was because it showed what everything else lacked - heart.

[kid-surf]

Brian... do you work at ToddAO? My buddy works there.


On a different note, I\'m going to a screening of Troy next week I think. There\'s no west coast premiere I\'m told. It\'s premiering in NYC, right?

[morrow35]

Is this site still running? How can I get the information for the password? I would love to see a scoring session in progress!