Euphonium Fever

[Adam Burford]

Prof. Jim Williams and other brass folk, your advice is requested.

I\'ve come upon an old-timey \"serenade\" published in 1907 for orchestra. It\'s cross-cued all over the place meaning that it was intended to be played on whatever instruments you had in your particular orchestra.

There is one part for \"3rd Trombone or Tuba\". It\'s range is from e below bass clef up to f# above bass clef.

May I assume that this is definitely not a bass tuba part? I\'m assuming that the \"tuba\" was probably a \"euphonium\". Do you think that\'s right?

I\'ve made the decision to go for the \"tuba\" sound rather than the trombone for this particular piece.

So now the big question: In your opinion what is the best Euphonium substitute in GPO right now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[snorlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Prof. Jim Williams and other brass folk, your advice is requested.

[/ QUOTE ]

At your service, Adam...nice pix, BTW!


[ QUOTE ]
There is one part for \"3rd Trombone or Tuba\". It\'s range is from e below bass clef up to f# above bass clef.
May I assume that this is definitely not a bass tuba part? I\'m assuming that the \"tuba\" was probably a \"euphonium\". Do you think that\'s right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably so...the E natural below the bass staff would be the lowest note on a three-valve euphonium in Bb and the lowest note on a triggerless trombone. Since there were very few four-valve low brass or trigger trombones in 1907, the instrument in question would be a 3-valve euph or a straight trombone. No tuba player at that time, even on an Eb instrument, would be able to play much above middle C.

INFORMATION: Brass instruments at the turn of the century were much smaller bore and much less developed than they are now. That is especially true of the low brass. Tubas and euphs were much smaller bore and less conical than they are now, which gave them a more piercing sound than current horns.
Remember also that as of 1907, the tuba and euphonium were only about 50 years old at the most--instrument design techniques, as well as playing techniques, were not well developed at that time. The first virtuoso tubists came in the mid-to-late 1920s.
Finally, especially in Europe, pitch was a lot higher than it is now, so sounds were \"brighter\" overall. One sure giveaway of this in an antique brass instrument is the presence of a tuning slide extender to bring the instrument down to \"low pitch.\"

\"Snorlax Live, Part Deux\" will be up shortly...

[ QUOTE ]
I\'ve made the decision to go for the \"tuba\" sound rather than the trombone for this particular piece.
So now the big question: In your opinion what is the best Euphonium substitute in GPO right now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your only GPO choice would be to use one of the solo french horns. I can\'t remember whether they can get the low E or not, but that\'s fixable. When I had a Proteus, I used the Fluegelhorn sample. Of course, both are poor substitutes. When I had the Proteus, I was able to change the envelope of the sample, but that can\'t be done with GPO unless you have the full Kontakt program.

[Adam Burford]

[ QUOTE ]
...Your only GPO choice would be to use one of the solo french horns. I can\'t remember whether they can get the low E or not, but that\'s fixable...

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim,

The GPO instrument FRENCH HORN 1 SOLO does go down low E. It sounds like this instrument will work well for me.

And thanks for all the info. I especially appreciate the historical knowledge.

Should we ask Gary for a Turn-of-the-Centry Brass collection? I pine for a Cornet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Markleford]

[ QUOTE ]
I pine for a Cornet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I love the cornet sound! Probably one reason why I picked one up to learn how to play... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Next time I\'m in the Seattle area, I\'ll have to bring all my brass to \"donate\" some sounds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

- m

[Garritan]

[ QUOTE ]

Next time I\'m in the Seattle area, I\'ll have to bring all my brass to \"donate\" some sounds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif- m

[/ QUOTE ]

Markleford,

I think I will take you up on your kind offer. Please bring along you Mellophone along with the rest of your collection. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Gary Garritan

[nexus]

Anybody up for Wagner (tenor) tubas? I know they are supposed to be a b*tch to play, but you can\'t do Wagner without \'that sound\'....

I know I keep asking about this, but somebody sample one for Gary and I\'ll shut up about them.....!

[snorlax]

Nex, et al...

Careful...A TENOR TUBA is a euphonium (without the vibrato, according to Gustav Holst /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) It uses a trombone-sized or bass trombone-sized mouthpiece. The most familiar part for tenor tuba in the orchestra is the Mars Movement of The Planets by Holst. In an orchestra it is usually a double for one of the trombone players. It is much more popular in wind bands, brass choirs and especially in british-style brass bands, in which the solo euphonium is next only to the solo cornet in importance.

WAGNER TUBAS are semi-uncoiled french horns. As horns are, they are pitched in Bb and F, though they are NOT double instruments as true french horns are. Wagner tubas are rotary valved and played with the LEFT hand because they are played by french horn players using french horn-sized mouthpieces. They have virtually no orchestral use outside limited use in pieces such as Rite of Spring. Their use is more frequent in film orchestras where tone color variety is highly prized. Wagner tubas play no role in wind bands or british brass bands.

I can offer more on \"odd brass\" if you want--I\'ve had some experience in that area...cimbasso, bass trumpet, tenor tuba, etc.

Jim

[Adam Burford]

[ QUOTE ]

I can offer more on \"odd brass\" if you want...


[/ QUOTE ]

Jim,

Tell me about the Bombardon. I just bought a part for it on eBay! I assume it\'s one of those small bore brass instruments that you mentioned?

[snorlax]

Hi, Adam...

Bombardons are bass instruments. Is the part in bass clef? If so, it is likely non-transposing unless it\'s french. A treble clef part for a bass instrument would transpose so that middle C in the treble staff is the fundamental pitch of the instrument

The first Bombardons were derived from the ophecleide, with which you may be familiar as a bassoon player. They looked like ophecleides but had valves instead of keys, and they were usually in the key of F. This would have existed in Europe in the 1850s-60s.

In this country a \"bombardon\" part would be played on an Eb (most likely) or BBb tuba in a band.

For Berlioz, in Symphonie Fantastique, the bass instruments in the Dies Irae duet were two ophecleides. Nowadays the parts are played on a big (CC) and small (F) tuba--not nearly as foreboding or raucous as the ophecleides, which were keyed instruments like a saxophone, but played with a cupped mouthpiece like a brass instrument.

Tell me about the part--bass clef? Part of a set? Other markings?

Jim

[Adam Burford]

Jim,

I just purchased the sheet music from a seller in Austrailia, so I\'ll have to wait for it to be shipped before I can tell you the details of the bombardon part.

The music is Waltz Luna by Paul Lincke. I didn\'t inquire about the publishing date, but I saw the cornets, and Bombardon and figured it was early 1900\'s.

Here\'s the parts I\'ll be receiving:

Clarinet Bb
Soprano Cornet Eb
Solo Cornet Bb (Conductor)
1st Cornet Bb
2nd Cornet Bb
3rd & 4th Cornets Bb
Solo Horn Eb (Solo Saxhorn)
1st & 2nd Horns Eb
3rd & 4th Horns Eb
1st & 2nd Trombones Bb (Tenor Clef)
Bass Trombone (Bass Clef)
1st Baritone Bb
2nd Baritone Bb
Euphonium Bb
Bass Eb Bombardon
Bass Bb
Drums

I\'m definitely doing a GPO of this one when I get the music. I have a new section of my site which is devoted to music in the original instrumentations from the early 1900\'s. This will be a beast to balance, and, of course, I\'ll be faking the instruments (no Cornet, no Euphonium /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

Soprano Eb Cornet! I\'ve heard this baby, and it\'s got a marvelous tubby sound to it, and also a warm-ness to it that modern trumpets don\'t have. I guess I don\'t really know how to describe it.

Do you know about some mysterious bass instrument part written for Mendelsohn\'s Reformation Symphony, last movement? I believe that there is a part for an obsolete brass instrument.

[snorlax]

Adam...

Looks as if I was right about the bombardon...a small-bore (by today\'s standards) tuba in Eb. Most likely 3 valves, which puts the lowest usable note at A below the bass staff. The BBb tuba part could go as low as the E 4 lines & a space below the bass clef if it needed to.

As to Mendelssohn, the Reformation Symphony dates from 1830 or so, so the bass instrument would likely be an ophecleide. It\'s too late, probably, to call for serpent as the bass instrument, but use of a serpent is not impossible. I\'ll have to check, but it\'s most likely the ophecleide.

An ophecleide has to be heard to be believed!! Imagine sticking a trombone mouthpiece into an elongated baritone sax and buzzing...\'nuff said. that\'s why Berlioz wrote the Dies Irae duet for two of \'em.

According to many musicalolologiststs (of which I am btw NOT one; I am a professor of Capitalism), use of tuba in current performance of Berlioz, Mendelssohn, etc. is wrong, but so is use of modern trumpets, horns, and trombones. Compared to 19th-century brass instruments, today\'s are thermonuclear spread-spectrum devices. That\'s why, even in live orchestra performances, the string players will often sit in front of acoustic shields.

My musical mentor, the great tubist Harvey Phillips, played a mid-size tuba in solo recitals, orchestras, dixieland bands, Sauter-Finegan orchestra, etc...It\'s the player, NOT the equipment.

Now--who wants to discuss the relative merits of the cimbasso?????

Jim

[Markleford]

[ QUOTE ]
The music is Waltz Luna by Paul Lincke. I didn\'t inquire about the publishing date, but I saw the cornets, and Bombardon and figured it was early 1900\'s.

[/ QUOTE ]
And the Eb Saxhorn, too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Big around turn of the century. I\'m a cornet guy, as well: this is my kinda action! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

A good page on the history of Saxhorns/Mellophones is here (\"http://home.earthlink.net/~mellophone/history.html\")...

- m

[snorlax]

...and go here (\"http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ucjl.html#ucjm\") and look at the brass examples of all sorts...there\'s a picture of a bombardon in F, Adam...

The Mendelssohn, btw, might have called for serpent. go here (\"http://www.yeodoug.com\") and follow the links to the serpent photo gallery. Doug Yeo is the bass trombonist in the Boston Symphony.

Jim

[nexus]

Jim, THANKS for the clarification on \'Wagner\' tuben. I have an old book which states Holst as using Wagner tubas in \"The Planets\". Do orchestras use tenor tubas now for those parts? What are the timbral differences between the tenor tuba and the Wagner tuba then? Or for that matter between them and the horn?

I have scoured the web and can\'t find any examples to listen to pointing out the differences.