Attack! Fortissimo!

[sam ward]

I\'m curious as the best way to go about this with the GPO instruments. I know key velocity helps but doesn\'t have the BIG attack I\'m trying for, especially strings. Thanks.

[Styxx]

Hi,
I am not absolutely sure what you are looking for but if it is an emphasis on a downbeat I always use a short loud attack in the percussion. Snare and bass drum being the most effective. You could edit the velocity of the desired note(s) and set them full (127).
Hope this helps.

[sam ward]

No, actually I\'m working with strings. Here the 127 velocity doesn\'t give the sharp attack that you can get with drums, but thanks. Probably didn\'t make myself clear. I don\'t think the GPO strings have a forte/fortissimo accent among its samples, so I\'m trying to come up with a solution.

[L0W]

I know what you mean and would be interested to hear if you/someone knows where to look for this. Maybe the \'short bows\' are heading in the right direction? Since owning GPO I have been converting a lot of my old work (written with hardware synths and Soundfonts) into GPO and a lot of the faster string/violin lines are barely coming out in certain phrases - ie the note moves on to the next before the the note attack has reached its peak. For the moment until I have had time to try out all the samples, I have switched back to the Soundfont samples. I think what you are looking for is the sound when the bow hits the string running (\'digging\' I think it is called) so there is little/no soft attack.

[Junkmonkey]

I think the best you can do is use the Short bows samples of your string instrument(s) and max out the velocity. Seems to work fine for me *shrug.

- Junk

[G Rudolph]

One way you can do this uses the various Section Strings - Sus+Short samples. With note velocity and the mod wheel at maximum, you get a fairly aggressive attack with a loud sustain. There\'s actually a good explanation of how this works on page 31 of the manual.

[tabtech]

I have resorted at times to doubling the string parts that need a strong attack on another track that calls the FX tremolo sound making all the notes very short. Then I can mix in the amount of bite I want. It seems to work.

[sam ward]

Thanks!

[Garritan]

Sam,

Glenn has a good suggestion to max the note velocity and mod wheel.

tabtech\'s suggestion to double the string parts is also effective for obtaining bigger attacks.

Also, try layering in a few solo strings for more bite.

Gary Garritan

[Mike Kelley]

Gary,

Since this is so obviously something everyone wants (is there anyone using GPO that doesn\'t need this feature?) I\'m hoping you and Tom are considering adding some sort of preset or additional samples for exactly this effect. Perhaps it could be another keyswitch on the KS strings or something, but it would be nice if we didn\'t have to resort to workarounds to get a sound we use quite a bit.

In my old age it\'s hard enough to remember how to use all this stuff let alone remember to try and add another two layers of solo and tremelo and max out the velocity and mod wheel just to get a sound I need.

[guybrush threepwood]

Short bows in GPO are very classical. Do a great job, but when I need growling bows I layer them (with the alternate bowing they achieve great realism) with some marcato samples. The outcome is really nice.

Of course it would be nicer if a set of FFF short bows were to be included as an update /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Junkmonkey]

Maybe this is all a ploy by the Garritan marketing team to sucker(?) us into buying the Orchestral Strings library!

GPO User 1: \"I wish the strings could do this...\"
GPO User 2: \"I wish the strings could do that..\"

Gary\'s response: \"Guess what fellas, THEY CAN! *points to GOS library* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif\"

I\'m dying to get my hands on the GOS library. Unfortunately, my current job doesn\'t pay me *sigh

- <font color=\"blue\"> J </font> <font color=\"green\"> U </font> <font color=\"green\"> N </font> <font color=\"blue\"> K </font>

[Styxx]

I\'m dying to get my hands on the GOS library. Unfortunately, my current job doesn\'t pay me

I concur. I\'m working two jobs but moving closer to the purchase.

[Mike Kelley]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this is all a ploy by the Garritan marketing team to sucker(?) us into buying the Orchestral Strings library!


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I might tend to agree were it not that it is this very thing that most drives the \"GPO doesn\'t do the movie sound\" arguement that sends some folks over to EQWL Silver.

I know part of it is the brass, but I\'m confident that Gary\'s Big Band add-on will not only address this deficiency but surpass anything Silver could offer, and hopefully still at a reasonable price. But even I have to admit Silver\'s strings are more \"aggressive\", and it\'s this sound that most drives that \"movie track\" sort of process. Since it\'s unlikely to the point of extreme that Gary will add strings to the Big Band thingee, we really need this in GPO.

I don\'t think it will take away any customers from GOS -- folks that can afford (and need) it will still get it. But it sure may take away customers from Silver.

I\'d love to hear Gary\'s take on this, though.

[Joseph Burrell]

Well, this all comes back to my problem with giga libraries. I do not want to have to pay 600 bucks for a sample library and then shell out another 400+ for Giga. That is a little more than I can bear. I also don\'t want to upgrade to the full blown version of Kontakt to run Giga samples for another 300 bucks either. So what is the easiest way to get what I want? Force it out of GPO, of course. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Jeff Turner]

I had the same problem on the last track I was working on. I ended up softening all of my non-fortissimo attacks. Then when I used an attack with full 127 velocity and modulation it really jumped out. Good luck.

JT

[Mike Kelley]

Well, I\'d still love to see either Tom or Gary comment on the possibility of adding this kind of sound to GPO. Even if they just mention they are thinking about it (or not) it would be nice to know.

[GigaLove]

Count me in to the list. I also would like to see attacks. Especially the solo strings are complete attack free. It is impossible to play (convincing) fast passages with them.

Attack!

[L0W]

[ QUOTE ]
I ended up softening all of my non-fortissimo attacks

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jeff.

How do you do that?

Also, are any of the string samples \'matched\' - ie which combinations of short bow and legato instruments would sound natural? If someone has already figured this out it would save a lot of experimentation.

[Tom Hopkins]

Mike,

Well, I\'d still love to see either Tom or Gary comment on the possibility of adding this kind of sound to GPO. Even if they just mention they are thinking about it (or not) it would be nice to know.

I\'m thinking about it.

Tom

[snorlax]

Here\'s what I do with *brass* now for attacks--same should work for strings perhaps.

I do, say, a trumpet track on channel 1 using solo trumpet 1. I\'ll set pan,volume, and velocity as I want and enter the music.

Let\'s say I want a sfz-type whole note--stress on the beginning &amp; then back to normal. I\'ll enter the whole note in track 1.

I\'ll next create a separate track for \"trumpet attacks\" using solo trumpet 1, same pan and volume, but on channel 2 and velocity (usually) 127. I\'ll place an eighth note or a quarter note, same pitch, on that track that coincides with the start of the whole note in track 1.

Works pretty good--you can vary the settings for attacks at softer volumes, but this technique gives a good replication of an attack for brass. I\'ll bet it works for string attacks as well.

It isn\'t very parsimonious of tracks, but with 64 slots available to me in GPO Studio, parsimony has yet to become a necessity.
Jim

[Mike Kelley]

[ QUOTE ]
I\'m thinking about it.
Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!

Cool, that\'s all I wanted to hear (\"hear\" being the operative word in this case).

[nexus]

[ QUOTE ]
I\'m curious as the best way to go about this with the GPO instruments. I know key velocity helps but doesn\'t have the BIG attack I\'m trying for, especially strings. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well unfortunately you\'ve just run up against the one major drawback of GPO, namely the attacks.

I have struggled myself over the years to make samples that \'could do it all\' so to speak so I wouldn\'t have to resort to separate tracks for short and long strings and brass.

In the end this romantic idea just falls short of the mark sometimes.

When GPO was announced I was sceptical that this method could be pulled off, but it\'s to Tom\'s credit that the samples work as well as they do.

75 percent of the time you don\'t need more from GPO in this regard, but I find myself using my Edirol HQO more than I should to make up for this. I also am going to be purchasing QLSO Silver to cover more aggresive and large scale works I want to do.

But let me say that GPO is a first class orchestra and a dream come true in many regards. I cannot bear to be without it.

I would say that it is most suited to Beethoven-era classical works much more so than any other library I am aware of.

The \'chamber\' quality it has is most intimate and ideally suited to many of the smaller scale compositions I want to do. In those types of works the need for \'agressive\' strings and brass are much less so and GPO works GREAT.

I would welcome wholeheartedly a supplemental set of samples that would have strong staccatos in the winds and brass as well as strings.

I would gladly pay for such upgrades given the ridiculously low price of GPO itself!

btw, movie scores ARE NOT the only place that one can hear what I am talking about! Just listen to large scale 20th century works. Anything by Roy Harris or William Schumann would demonstrate the need for STRONG staccatos.

[Garritan]

[ QUOTE ]
I\'m curious as the best way to go about this with the GPO instruments. I know key velocity helps but doesn\'t have the BIG attack I\'m trying for, especially strings. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam,

We have some enhancements coming with the next update of GPO. \"I\'m thinking about it\" Tom is the master of the understatement. Tom has actually been busy at work doing some interesting things in order to have bigger/bolder/accentuated attacks. I think many will be pleased. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gary Garritan

[nexus]

Gary, I can\'t wait!

My \'fantasy\' is to have GPO as the ONLY library I turn to to do serious music.

[L0W]

[ QUOTE ]
some enhancements coming with the next update of GPO

[/ QUOTE ]

Have there been previous updates then? Where are they? How can one tell which version one is on?

Thanks.

[rageangel]

This all depends on what we are talking about. \"Attack\" as a component of volume is the same for all instruments. However, there most definitely is a difference with solo strings. You can hear the bow literally \"digging into\" the string. However, this effect is mostly used in modern music, i.e. Kronos Quartet. It would be nice in GPO, but come on! Apparently, the real expensive libraries have a lot of effects like this.
Maybe Gary could just put together a GPO2 with new effects and such. If it was priced as cheap as GPO, it would be well worth it.

[NeoDavinci]

Attack is not simply a component of volume. Even on a piano, turning a soft note up won\'t turn it into an accented note, simply a lightly played note turned up in volume. An accented note on a brass instrument has a different tone at the beginning, not simply greater volume. And, as you mentioned, you can hear the bow on the string with any of the string instruments.
All that means is, yes, I would love better accents in GPO. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Mark

[lumpyhed]

Good to hear it. We need strings with more \'bite\' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I own VSL first edition cube, but i find myself working in GPO more and more &amp; going back and programming for VSL sampling later. I appreciate being able to have everything there and ready rather than having to bounce tracks all the time.

[BioFeedback]

I have a some quick comments.

1) I use the tremelo strings when I need harder hits. It\'s not very difficult and works well.
2)GPO HAS become the only library I use now!


I\'m currently working on a gladiator video game for a new japanese company, when it\'s ok to do so. I\'ll share the music, so you can judge for yourselves.


Rach on!
Mike P~

[KevinKauai]

My piece (from April 29) \"Tutti\" (Symphonic Trance 2004-3) (\"http://www.kevintweedy.net/Preview/MusicPreview.htm#Tutti\") was an exercise in getting a reasonable \"bite\" and punch to a \"punctuating hit\". I did \"cheat\" a bit and use the \"All Strings\" of GOS (Lite) in HALion (for the convenience of playing a single big chord -- doubled as Pizzacto and Marcato). I did this partially because I really LIKE GOS(LITE) in that it has convenient \"All Strings\" selections. (In that piece, the quiet strings are \"Full Strings Sordino Lite EXP\" and the \"hits\" are \"Full Strings Pizz Lite\" and \"Full Strings Marcto Lite\".

The chords of the \"hits\" were played once (for the entire line -- varying the intensity from fffsz to fsz) then tidied up in MIDI and duplicated for the second line. (For that piece, there were 18 MIDI channels used, 1 instance of HALion, 3 instances of GPO and I still had almost 200 meg of my 1 gig memory free!)

I think that it is a relatively convincing sfz when combined with the other 15 channels of the piece. What is perhaps missing in GPO is the \"All Strings\" convenience that comes with GOS and GOS(LITE). While only reformed keyboardists like myself generally feel comfortalble playing ALL the string lines at once, it does make \"composing by sketching\" (from the keyboard) a lot easier. You can then either separate out the inidividual part lines or score and play them again with the appropriate voices (a technique I have also used from time to time).

I hope this adds to the discussion.

kev /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nexus]

[ QUOTE ]
My piece (from April 29) \"Tutti\" (Symphonic Trance 2004-3) (\"http://www.kevintweedy.net/Preview/MusicPreview.htm#Tutti\") was an exercise in getting a reasonable \"bite\" and punch to a \"punctuating hit\". I did \"cheat\" a bit and use the \"All Strings\" of GOS (Lite) in HALion (for the convenience of playing a single big chord -- doubled as Pizzacto and Marcato). I did this partially because I really LIKE GOS(LITE) in that it has convenient \"All Strings\" selections. (In that piece, the quiet strings are \"Full Strings Sordino Lite EXP\" and the \"hits\" are \"Full Strings Pizz Lite\" and \"Full Strings Marcto Lite\".

The chords of the \"hits\" were played once (for the entire line -- varying the intensity from fffsz to fsz) then tidied up in MIDI and duplicated for the second line. (For that piece, there were 18 MIDI channels used, 1 instance of HALion, 3 instances of GPO and I still had almost 200 meg of my 1 gig memory free!)

I think that it is a relatively convincing sfz when combined with the other 15 channels of the piece. What is perhaps missing in GPO is the \"All Strings\" convenience that comes with GOS and GOS(LITE). While only reformed keyboardists like myself generally feel comfortalble playing ALL the string lines at once, it does make \"composing by sketching\" (from the keyboard) a lot easier. You can then either separate out the inidividual part lines or score and play them again with the appropriate voices (a technique I have also used from time to time).

I hope this adds to the discussion.

kev /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Kevin! Let\'s hear it for a \'combined\' strings patch or string \'tutti\' for GPO like other libraries have. It is often enough for composing purposes. One can go back later and re-arrange for separate string sections.