Another Steinway D to add to the list!

[Alexcremers]

Another Steinway D Demo (\"http://www.ksounds.com/Demo/Natural%20Stein%20VS.mp3\")

[runamuck]

Very nice. The mid-range notes are above average. And the pp dynamics are quite good. What is it?

Jim

[fisheye]

The PP sounds very damped, like they put a piece of cloth over the strings. Or just a lowband pass filter of course.

I don\'t hear above average midrange myself in this demo. Actually, the demo is so liveless, it reminds me of the usual digital pianos. Could be the low quality of the mp3 itself though.

They try to convince you with long sustained notes, since lots of people fall for this kind of sound. Why not add a bunch of strings to it plus a big cathedral reverb and you have a hit!

Seriously, a demo should at least contain short stand-alone notes in all registers. They are the hard ones.

[leogardini]

The more I listen to this piano the happyer I become...Now I know that I made the rigth choice purchasing Bosendorfer plug-in!!!

I still don´t like the PPs...

and even worse , on 38 sec. there´s a note out of tune!!!

[Alexcremers]

[ QUOTE ]
What is it?


[/ QUOTE ]

It\'s a piano I stumbled upon yesterday and it\'s made by Ksounds for the Kurzweil K2 series and Korg Triton workstations and only requires 58-75 MB. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
---------------
Alex Cremers

[fisheye]

[ QUOTE ]

It\'s a piano I stumbled upon yesterday and it\'s made by Ksounds for the Kurzweil K2 series and Korg Triton workstations and only requires 58-75 MB. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Then I was about right in detecting a usual digital piano! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Not bad for a usual one.

Now guess the size of this (\"http://www.roland.co.uk/auddemo/SRX-02.mp3 \") one. [notice they also use long sustains]

[fisheye]

It is not that hard to get a piano with a nice sound quality in a small size:
Say use stereo 16bit/44khz recordings = 176 kbyte/second.
Use 10 second recordings (who holds their notes longer than that): multiply by 10
Apply Near-CD quality MP3 compression: divide by 7.
Sample only 30 notes per layer (only halve note transpositions needed) : multiply by 30

That\'s 7.5 MB per layer. 8 Layers take only 60MB!

[Alexcremers]

[ QUOTE ]
Now guess the size of this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beats me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif. Same size MB? Fantom-X, perhaps? Should I dive for cover now?

[fisheye]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I dive for cover now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It\'s a Bosendorfer on the Roland SRX-02 expansion. It\'s only 16MB.

[Lougheed]

[quoteIt\'s a Bosendorfer on the Roland SRX-02 expansion. It\'s only 16MB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compressed, right?

[Alexcremers]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Should I dive for cover now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It\'s a Bosendorfer on the Roland SRX-02 expansion. It\'s only 16MB.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Roland SRX-02 is 64 MB and is totally devoted to the piano, a supposedly very rare European piano.

So, I was almost right. It\'s about the same size and it\'s a Roland. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Please don\'t take away my stars now.

----------------
Alex Cremers

[Olivier]

Hi Alex,

just Imagine this 64 Mb library without loop and not compressed...

Take a look at :

http://www.galaxy.be/ (\"http://www.galaxy.be/\")

A Steinway-D concert grand is permanently installed in the Hall. This instrument was especially selected at the factory in Hamburg and is regularly checked and maintained by an internationally renowned tuner.

Roland Japan : basic recordings for the next generation of digital pianos

Roland choose The Steinway of Galaxy studio for the next generation of digital pianos !

Alex, as soon as receive this Piano i will keep you informed and i\'ve several ideas for pianist programs.

Regards,

Olivier

[Alexcremers]

I know, Olivier. I\'ve been following the Galaxy Steinway\'s progress for months now. I\'m virtually in all the Galaxy threads. You of all people should know that, because you\'ve been there right beside me. And now I wait for you to testdrive this baby and tell us all its secrets, its powers but also its weaknesses. And I\'m eagerly awaiting your demos, of course.

---------------
Alex Cremers

[fisheye]

[ QUOTE ]
The Roland SRX-02 is 64 MB and is totally devoted to the piano, a supposedly very rare European piano.

So, I was almost right. It\'s about the same size and it\'s a Roland. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Please don\'t take away my stars now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won\'t take your stars for it, but the SRX-02 contains 4 piano\'s (all with 4 layers) be it all sampled from the same grand, using different mic\'ing technics. So every piano on it is about 16MB. Believe me, I owned de SRX-02 for a while, just before switching to software pianos. I wish they had put one 16 layer grand instead of four 4 layer grands; would be so much better.

[K-Sounds]

[ QUOTE ]
Very nice. The mid-range notes are above average. And the pp dynamics are quite good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jim,

Thanks! I’m glad you like it. I agree. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
They try to convince you with long sustained notes, since lots of people fall for this kind of sound. Why not add a bunch of strings to it plus a big cathedral reverb and you have a hit!

Seriously, a demo should at least contain short stand-alone notes in all registers. They are the hard ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Fisheye,

Interesting comments. I had never thought of people “falling for” a long sustained sound. My belief is that long sustained notes indicate there’s nothing to hide. I’ve heard many piano sample demos, and many (most?) of them don’t allow notes to decay much before more notes are played. If demos only show the first 1-2 seconds of any given sample, the developers may be trying to hide poor loops (if there are loops), a lack of sustain, or even poor playability. In contrast, I’ve tried to make my demos very honest about how the piano sample actually sounds and plays, including how the notes decay.

That said, if you’d like to hear shorter notes, different styles, etc., feel free to email me a MIDI file of what you’d like to hear. As long as it doesn’t allow someone to reconstruct the piano sample, I’ll be glad to record it unaltered and make it available for listening.


[ QUOTE ]
I still don´t like the PPs...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi leogardini,

I find them very nice. But for those that don’t, the disc has several programs based on that sample, so the soft dynamics aren’t always quite that “soft.” Specifically, that demo uses one of the warmer programs; the CD provides bright and “rock” variations as well.

[ QUOTE ]
on 38 sec. there´s a note out of tune!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
Which note (name) are you referring to? I’ve listened to that part several times, and I don’t hear bad intonation. What I hear is the KDFX sympathetic resonance effect – as well as the mild dissonance caused by playing major seconds. If you haven\'t already, check out the other demos to see if the note in question is heard again. It might even be played again in the same mp3.

---

Thanks for your opinions, everyone! I appreciate all feedback. I know of no piano sample that is liked by everyone who hears it, so there are no hard feelings to those who prefer other libraries; that’s just part of the business. If there are any more questions or comments, feel free to reply here or send me an email through ksounds.com.

[fisheye]

Hi Keven,

first of all, I thought I was reviewing a software piano sample, instead of one for a hardware digital piano. Software piano\'s aren\'t looping that much, so long notes aren\'t a big problem for those usually.

When I said lots of people fall for long sustained notes, I was talking more musically than technically. People often like those kinds of pieces on a piano more than more complex pieces using short notes. It\'s also hard for people to jugde a demo on only the technical qualities; they have to like the music first, then they can judge the sound quality. If they don\'t like the music itself, then liking the sound of the piano is very hard. [sample pros like you probably judge the techical details more easily of course]

Ever walked in a digital piano store and just pressed a note shortly? Notice you immediatly think: \"bah\". At least, I do. It\'s immediately clear you didn\'t hear a soundboard of a real piano. Instead, the short note is drenched in some kind of reverb, not matching the accoustics of the store. Very, very ugly. All sample demo\'s I\'ve heard fail for me when their is a short note somewhere. The release samples aren\'t done right, if present at all.

Different people, different ways of listening to demo\'s. Non-pros can only listen to the whole thing at once, they can\'t separate the different aspects in the sound. Sample pros probably hear every technical shortcoming. Pianists hear the unrealnesses compared to real pianos. Classical ones also hear every detunings.

[K-Sounds]

Hi again fisheye,

Thanks for replying. You comments are insightful and thought-provoking. In particular, you cause me to wonder if I underestimate the emotional side of marketing – the feeling of “wow, I love that song, so I must have the piano sample that it uses”. I usually present demos from a technical “here’s-how-it-sounds” approach, and it’s easy to forget that the demos need to inspire listeners musically in addition to conveying the right sound. For anyone who creates quality sampled pianos, an enormous amount of time goes into careful, technical listening. Even when playing the pianos, I tend to listen to the piano\'s response more than the overall musical idea. So your comments are a good reminder.

Yes, I’ve certainly had the music store experience you described. Some digital pianos beg you to play; others beg you to leave. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Reverb doesn’t bother me as much, though, because I don’t think all digital pianos are intended to make a listener think they’re hearing a real piano in the room with them. I think many d.p.’s and sample sets (including mine) are created to make a listener think they’re hearing a recording of a real piano. To me, these are two totally different design goals. Unless the digital piano looks like a baby grand, it doesn\'t have enough resonant material to even try emulating a soundboard, so I can see why it’s frustrating to hear something that doesn’t accurately simulate a living room piano when that’s what you’re wanting. A lot of people want that, so you make a great point.

About release samples, I agree with your frustration. It’s a hard thing to really nail. Consider this example: On a real piano, you play two notes consecutively at the exact same velocity (and on the same key). The first note is released after one second, and the second is released after three seconds. Even though the attack will sound exactly the same, the sound of the release will be different because the second note allows more harmonic decay before the key is released. So, to recreate a note’s release accurately with samples, not only do sound designers have to make a sampler consider a note’s initial velocity, but they should program it to consider the duration of a note as well (not all samplers will even do this). Otherwise, the harmonic content of the release won’t match the sustain immediately before the release. I don’t claim to be an expert on piano release samples yet, but the experience I’ve had with them leads me to believe that an accurately-programmed release envelope (filter as well as amplitude) can be a much more musical solution than using release samples. With an envelope, there’s never the abrupt change in harmonic content. As well, there’s no potential for mismatched amplitude levels between the sustain and the release. With piano release samples, that too is a tough issue.