Kontakt rendering problem

[Scott Cairns]

Has anyone had problems with Kontakt instruments not being properly rendered in the final stereo mix?

I am having certain portions of instrument tracks miss a few notes. It has happened to both some percussion tracks plus a Sam Horn Swell patch. If I solo the track and render, it seems to work, but when I render a whole song some tracks miss notes altogether.

Im running Kontakt 1.5.2
Cubase SX 2.01

Thanks in advance.

[Alan Russell]

Scott,

if you havn\'t done so, make it a habit to bounce to track via Kontakt using Sonar in the slow mode..The fast one generally misses notes. I am assuming you are using Sonar here.

Alan Russell

[Houston Haynes]

[ QUOTE ]
Im running Kontakt 1.5.2
Cubase SX 2.01

[/ QUOTE ]

My advice would be to update to the latest version of Cubase, with provision to revert if you\'re not comfortable with the latest build. I\'ve done more with Kontakt in Nuendo, but what I\'ve done with it and Cubase on my secondary PC seems to work fine. I\'m not at my studio right now, but I know that I\'m running the latest versions of each of those apps.

Side note: I know that Nuendo is quirky on real-time render (doesn\'t produce anything for me - blank file - when no MIDI present), so my guess is there\'s a kink somewhere in the sequencer. I ran into a situation with Cubase where a lost one or two fills from Groove Agent during a mixdown, but still plays back in real time without a hitch. ::scratches head::

[Tarkio Road]

I am running the latest version of SX 2 on a G5. The first time I rendered an audio mix-down the resulting file was a mess - most of the Gold instruments (Kompakt) were missing even though everything sounded great in real-time. But I also noticed that having the Kompakt edit window open caused a dramatic slowdown in graphics with Cubase (Halion, Trilogy and others did not have this problem.)

So in desperation I closed the VSTi edit windows and everything rendered flawlessly. Try rendering in SX with the Kontakt edit window closed and see if you have any improvement.

[fisheye]

Accidentally, I tried to mixdown a midi recording on Cubase SX 2.0.1 and Vintaudio Yamaha C7 on Kontakt 1.5.2 for the first time today. I encountered the same problem. I don\'t know why, the system should have no problems doing this. Maybe it\'s a bug in Cubase.

To get the recording I ran the midi-file through Chainer (another VST host with basic recording possibillity) to record it, which worked fine (no errors what so ever), but that is not really a \'pro-solution\'.

[DeOlivier]

This sounds like a well-known problem in kontakt. I experience the exact same behaviour when bouncing a full orchestral arrangement with EWQLSO. I don\'t think that it\'s a bug in SX. Some weeks ago, I searched both this forum and the NI forum and the only solution I found was to record the output instead of rendering. If anybody has a better workaround, please tell us!

Oliver

[Guga Bernardo]

Yes, I had the same problem. It has something to do with this version of Kontakt, since this never happened to me with the previous versions. Seems that we have a pretty nasty bug showing up here... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Houston Haynes]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I had the same problem. It has something to do with this version of Kontakt, since this never happened to me with the previous versions. Seems that we have a pretty nasty bug showing up here... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?? I don\'t think so, since I\'ve done at least six pieces in the 1:30 - 5:00 range with five instances (or more) of Kontakt 1.5.2 and never missed a note... but that was rendering in Nuendo. I think it\'s a Cubase issue, since I\'ve had problems with Cubase and other apps before (see my notes above).

[fisheye]

I also don\'t think Kontakt is the problem, since VST instruments can\'t see the difference between just playing/outputing and rendering: the VST interface in the VST Plug-Ins SDK (downloadable from Steinberg) makes no difference. A VST just needs to able to deliver the sound in chunks when requested within the latency set in the host. When recording in real-time, this latency should be the same as with playing in real-time.

All Cubase has to do to record the output is to play the tracks and send the results to the harddisk instead of to the soundcard; it should not be that hard, but apparently things are more complex than it looks (as ever).

[tob]

I have this problem with stormdrum kompakt player. Seems like it occurs when it has to stream too many notes.. Never happened with halion. Anyway, I had to disable the HD stream in kompakt and load all the samples into the ram. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

/Tobias

[fisheye]

We have a theory then...
If it works when the samples are fully loaded in ram, then cubase probably sends the output to disk (almost) unbuffered, thus sending it directly to the HD. This causes a lot of searching on the HD (with an average searchtime of about 9ms per search!), thereby making it impossible for Kontakt to stream the samples fast enough from disk. If this theory is true, separate harddisks for software and samples should be the solution. But newer versions of cubase might just record a bit more efficient, leaving room for Kontakt to do its work.
I\'d say, an efficient recorder could simply store the output on RAM while it is recording and only afterwards save it to disk; thereby not interleaving with Kontakts streaming activity.

[Ed]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone had problems with Kontakt instruments not being properly rendered in the final stereo mix?


[/ QUOTE ]

I had this exact same problem the other day! I was mixing down a dence percussion mix with the huge takio drum ensemble patch. It wouldnt play properly real time so I mixed it down, and in 2 parts the audio cut out then it came back then cut out again. I tried it 3 times. Then I took Kompakt verb off and it worked fine.

I thought mixing down meant no matter how unreal time friendly your mix was mixing down offline meant it\'d be alright. I dont get it.

Am I making sence?

Ed

[DeOlivier]

This is definitely not only a Cubase SX problem. I tried to open the same .cpr file in Nuendo (newest version) and the result was the same - notes cutting off all the time. This happens both with normal and real-time rendering. To me it sounds like if the high cpu load during export was triggering the note stealing algorithm. Can be totally wrong, I know...

[ QUOTE ]
Posted by Ed:
I thought mixing down meant no matter how unreal time friendly your mix was mixing down offline meant it\'d be alright. I dont get it.


[/ QUOTE ]
- You\'re right, Ed, at least in my old orchestral setup with Halion 2 it was working exactly that way... Fortunately, EWQLSO sounds so great that I willingly put up with the additional hassle :-)

Oliver

[Tarkio Road]

There does seem to be a number of variable here. If it is a Cubase problem, it only happens with the Kompakt player for me. I can have 3 or more full instances of Halion in use (streaming), and all instruments render perfectly with SX 1.06 and the latest version of SX 2 as long as I have the number of voices set correctly. When I add a Kompakt player VSTi I start having problems. And as I said above, this problem goes away if I close all of the VSTi edit windows before rendering.

I know the current version of Kompakt has problems, so this may not be relevant to the full version of Kontakt. But once again, Halion, Atmosphere, Trilogy, Stylus and others always render perfectly for me in SX 2.

Maybe the problem is a little bit Cubase and Kontakt?

[Guga Bernardo]

No, it is definitely a kontakt problem. The same error never happens with other plugins, only with Kontakt. And Kompakt. And it has never happened to me with the previous version, 1.2.

[Guga Bernardo]

[ QUOTE ]
I also don\'t think Kontakt is the problem, since VST instruments can\'t see the difference between just playing/outputing and rendering: the VST interface in the VST Plug-Ins SDK (downloadable from Steinberg) makes no difference. A VST just needs to able to deliver the sound in chunks when requested within the latency set in the host. When recording in real-time, this latency should be the same as with playing in real-time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but cubase does not render in real time. That makes rendering a completely different process than playing. There must be something terribly wrong with Kontakt i/o.

[Guga Bernardo]

[ QUOTE ]
HUH?? I don\'t think so, since I\'ve done at least six pieces in the 1:30 - 5:00 range with five instances (or more) of Kontakt 1.5.2 and never missed a note... but that was rendering in Nuendo. I think it\'s a Cubase issue, since I\'ve had problems with Cubase and other apps before (see my notes above).

[/ QUOTE ]

I will never get this error running 5 instances, I only get this error when using 10 - 15 instances, and more than 95% of the RAM resources. That means that it only fails when you REALLY need it working... and that´s what I call a nasty bug.

[Houston Haynes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HUH?? I don\'t think so, since I\'ve done at least six pieces in the 1:30 - 5:00 range with five instances (or more) of Kontakt 1.5.2 and never missed a note... but that was rendering in Nuendo. I think it\'s a Cubase issue, since I\'ve had problems with Cubase and other apps before (see my notes above).

[/ QUOTE ]

I will never get this error running 5 instances, I only get this error when using 10 - 15 instances, and more than 95% of the RAM resources. That means that it only fails when you REALLY need it working... and that´s what I call a nasty bug.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so we\'re talking about a competition for resources. That *is* a different animal, and bears more scrutiny by NI.

Is there no difference between real-time render the as-fast-as-it-can method?

[Scott Cairns]

Thanks for everyone\'s replies it appears that I am not alone with this problem!

I like Tarkio\'s suggestion of hiding the Kontakt player whilst rendering, Ill try that and a few other things and see what happens.

Thanks again,

Scott.

[JohnGrant]

Let me throw in a belated 2 cents. I\'m fed up with Kompakt, which I use to run the pmi bos and milan steinway. Pentium 4 with 2 gigs of mem and it STILL can\'t play or record any piano music with heavy pedal/polyphony. Neither Cubase nor Cakewalk will produce a final recording absent the dropouts with any kind of heavy polyphony. So I blew the money for nothing, as far as I\'m concerned. Waiting for G3.

JG

[Rich Pell]

John , Using the PMI bosey too in SX2 , without any dropouts and lots of polyphony. Theres a trick to your DFD buffer settings and page filing. How is System virtual memory and DFD set up in Kompakt? Nice and Cool in T.O .today.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gifRich

[JohnGrant]

The DFD I\'ve played with. But the paging and virtual mem, I haven\'t touched.

JG

[Rich Pell]

That may be why yur having problems...Kontakt DFD is known to work better with no page filing on the same drive your program. So, if Kontakt is installed on yur C: drive ,turn OFF the page filing (virtual memory ) and put it on another drive if u want...i have it on my audio drive. Also, good buffer settings with 2 gb of ram on kOntakt are: 312 kb for both buffers and 256 voices. or 192 for the 1st on and 312 for the second with 256 voices. Also,try not to go under 6 ms (256 samples) on yur sound cards settings and defrag your drives and do up yur fly.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Good luck fellow canuck..Rich

[jeffn1]

I am having the same problem with dkfh 2 (which uses the Kompakt engine) in Sonar 2.2. Whenever I try to bounce down, I get crackles and pops.

By the way, can someone explain how to use Kompakt\'s \"bounce\" feature in Sonar 2.2?

I read somewhere I should \"select\" the midi track and the dkfh 2 soft syth track, then go into Kompakt and light the \"Bounce\" button and the follow the usualy bounce routine in Sonar. I haven\'t tried this yet, but if I \"highlight\" a track, it does not let me bounce. Sonar says there is \"no audio\" to process.

Thanks fo your help

JeffN

[DeOlivier]

Rich: Thanks for your suggestions, but unfortunately, turning off virtual memory and changing DFD settings doesn\'t change anything - I\'ve tried it all... At the moment, there are only two ways to render correctly with very large setups (at least in my case): 1. turning off DFD (which isn\'t really practicable) and 2. record the audio output in real time.

JeffN: The problem you are describing is a different one. We are not talking about crackles and pops, but about notes missing and being cut off. I think that the solution to your problem is the (obscure) bounce button.

[Jordo]

IMO I think it has to do something with the speed at which cubase/nuendo renders audio. I think the processor or something gets overworked. Rendering one track - no problems. Render multiple instrument tracks - sometimes you get missed notes, sometimes not. When I render to audio I find I get a small \'glitch\' noise, followed by the missed notes. It seems like it\'s trying to render the notes but something happens in the process and they just simply get cut out. Sometimes I get 3-5 missed notes on a paticular instrument in a row. A partial solution is to turn all your reverb off. If your running an altiverb or something try turning it off and see what you get. I definately think it\'s a problem with cpu resources, cause if I render without any verb, problem solved untill I add more instruments.

[Scott Cairns]

Jordo, your desription is identical to mine. You can even pull the wav file up in an editor and see the glitch.

I have actually had Virtual Memory (page filing) turned off for years so I dont think that is the cause.

It seems Im not alone in this problem though, perhaps we should submit our \"petition\" to Steinberg and NI and let them try and sort it out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Rich Pell]

Hmm...Honestly , Im not getting this problem with Kontakt. Though last week i did get a problem like this with he new Tassman 4. I found i could only get a midi trk rendered when i mixed down in real time. Maybe try that. Do your final audiomixdown in real time...its worth a shot..Rich

[DeOlivier]

[ QUOTE ]
Do your final audiomixdown in real time...its worth a shot..Rich

[/ QUOTE ]

I\'ve tried that, too: Mixing down using the \"real time\" option in SX improves the result a little (less notes cut off), but it\'s far from perfect...