Pictures of an Exhibition

[IGOR]

There is a sampled production of the entire Pictures of an Exhibition by Mussorgsky/Ravel (35 minutes....) at http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/Text_E/My%20Music_E.htm (\"http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/Text_E/My%20Music_E.htm\")

It does make use of GOS/GPO/VSL/London Percussion and X Samples.

[L0W]

Fantastic work Igor. PAAE is one of my favourite piano pieces and I\'ve spent years and years [unsuccessfully] trying to play just parts of it! I\'ve always been a bit dubious about Ravel\'s orchestration - till now! However, given the work and effort that has gone into your arrangements of this - why did you MP3 at 128kb/s rather than 192? 192 would add so much more to the sound quality.

[Garritan]

Iwan,

It is an honor to have you here. What an impressive body of work you have done. When I clicked the link I expected a few songs from the Mussorgsky-Ravel classic, but I didn\'t expect the complete Pictures at an Exhibition. This work is very difficult to pull of and you succeeded. Excellent rendition, balance and tonality. This also shows how GPO blends with other libraries such as VSL, X-Sample/ LP and GOS.

My favorites are Iwan\'s original work - especially his Diadem.
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/sounds/DiademMaster.mp3.mp3 (\"http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/sounds/DiademMaster.mp3.mp3\")

I noticed the studio setup on the website. Nice setup and I put a link to the studio in the GPO Studio thread.

For those who don\'t know Iwan:

Professor Iwan Roth studied music at the renown \"Higher National Academy of Music of Paris\" and studied saxophone under legendary saxophonist Master Marcel Mule (1901-2001 founder of the modern school of the traditional saxophone). While at the Academy, Iwan attend classes taught by Darius Milhaud and Olivier Messiaen which influenced in his musical development.

http://www.garritan.com/images/iwan.jpg

Iwan Roth has a distinguished career traveling the world as a concert performer and has played with many orchestras including: the Berlin Philharmonic, the Vienna Philharmonic, the Philharmonic orchestras of Munich and Stuttgart, the orchestra of Scala of Milan, and the Zurich Orchestra. He has played under under the direction of Leonard Bernstein, Zubin Meta, Pierre Swell, Luciano Berio, Igor Markevitch, Colin Davis, Riccardo Muti, Sergiu Celibidache, and other Maestros and he has performed in the best concert halls ithroughout Europe, in the USA and Asia.

Iwan Roth has recorded 14 albums, has performed in many television productions, and has authored publications including \'Method for Saxophone Volumes I & II (over 30,000 sold). Iwan Roth has collaborated with Charless Aznavour, Sammy Davis, Mireille Matthieu, Johnny Hallyday, Sylvie Vartan, and Lionel Hampton Iwan Roth currently lives in the south of France where he teaches and produce smusic.

Iwan is the founder of the higher class of saxophone at the Academy of Music of Basle, which under his direction has acquired an international reputation. Between 1984 and 1992, Iwan Roth also taught with the Academy of Utrecht in Holland. In the USA Iwan Roth taught in Northwestern University - Chicago, Indiana University - Bloomington, and North Texas State University etc. He also has taught many master classes in Paris, Bordeaux, Sion, Switzerland/Nüremberg, Germany/Noto, Italy, France/Taragona, Spain/Amsterdam, Holland/Boston, the USA and Japan. He has also served on the panel of judges for international competitions.

Thanks for being here Iwan and sharing your work with us.

Gary Garritan

[IGOR]

Low,

You are right about the quality, it is just to make it more easy for people with slow Internet connection to also have access to the files. But if this is not a reason anymore all files exist also in 192 and in AIFF.

Edit: I am in the process to replace all files with 192 mp3. Thanks for your comments.

Iwan

[nexus]

What a fabulous rendition of the \"Pictures\"! How much of this was GPO?

[IGOR]

< How much of this was GPO?>

Not much..... I did receive GPO when this production was already achieved, so I only did use some Bass Clarinet for replacement in Goldenberg. But I would like to reprogram at least one of the big movements using only GPO. I think that GPO is a great library, not only because it does not cost much, but because of the fantastic concept and philosophy which is beind the product. With GPO you can really make music, not only dry computer programming. I hope that there will be more developpements in this direction.

There are quite some GOS patches being used in the Pictures, sometime on there own and often layered with VSL strings. I also forgot to mention some Dan Dean Woodwinds being included and the Alto Saxophone is home made.......

Thank you for all your comments

Iwan Roth
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com (\"http://www.iwanroth-sax.com\")

[Cazalar]

Hi Iwan,

Very nice rendition of Pictures of an exhibition.

I went to your site and listened to your own compositions. Excellent work.

I was particularly fascinated by \'Diadem\'.

Could you give us an insight as to how you composed this piece.

Is it based on any particular scale or tone row ?

As it is very contrapuntal, how did you structure the individual lines both harmonically and linearly was there a plan or did you class the various simoultanaeitys by degrees of intervalic dissonance or consonance?

Sorry if this is a lot of questions but I am very interested in this style of composition and it is nice to have the opportunity to talk to the composer.

Regards\'

Paul.

[IGOR]

Paul,

[ QUOTE ]
<I went to your site and listened to your own compositions. Excellent work.
I was particularly fascinated by \'Diadem\'.>

<Thank you very much for listening and for your comments.

Could you give us an insight as to how you composed this piece.
Is it based on any particular scale or tone row ?>

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the basic tone row in Diadem is C,C#,D,F.F# (0,1,2,5,6), but this was not the original idea, which is actually C,B,Bb,G,F# (the inverse), as played by the solo horn at the first beginning. This happen to be the row which Alan Forte calls Forte 5-6. The preparation was made by examining all harmonic and melodic aspects of this tone row. I normally finish up with with a bunch of sketches, which are using the material, but are not only mathematics, because they come mostly from my inner ear. After playing around for some time with this material, it becomes familiar like a C major scale. Actually it is exactly the same procedure as writing a tonal piece, but with non tonal material. Considering the form, I often use formulas based on the Golden section and on Fibonacci numbers, but as said before, exactly as I would use a Sonata form or a menuetto.

Iwan

[IGOR]

Low,

the files are now all 192 mp3. I does really make a big difference, even more then I thought. Thanks for your input!

Iwan

[IGOR]

Gary,

Thank you for the good words. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And, please, keep on producing these great, innovating libraries. GOS has taking me back to samples after I had nearly given up with it. And GPO is a miracle for composers who want to use samples, but still want to stay a musician instead of becoming a computer programmer.

Iwan

[Cazalar]

Thanks Iwan for that excellent and detailed explanation of your compositional procedure for \'Diadem\'.

I find this kind of information to be invaluable coming as it from the mind of the composer.

Thanks again.

Paul.

[Nhick Ramiro Pacis]

What really amazes me is the magnitude of the whole endeavor, talk about mock-up of an entire suite!!! Hats off to you, sir!

[ailteoir]

now this is indeed a great piece of work, the quality and the size.
thanks very much for sharing.
slán
mick ó c

[IGOR]

Nhick,

thanks for your comments.

I just did visit your site. Great music. I like your diversity. SingilII and QuasiFuga do interest me very much. I am currently composing small pieces with GPO and traditional African Percussion, using central African rhythms, which I did study with the book of Simha Arom. You use sounds which I like very much, if you can give me a hint where I can get this kinds of sounds, this would be great. Thanks.

Iwan (Igor)

[Nhick Ramiro Pacis]

[ QUOTE ]
Nhick,

thanks for your comments.

I just did visit your site. Great music. I like your diversity. SingilII and QuasiFuga do interest me very much. I am currently composing small pieces with GPO and traditional African Percussion, using central African rhythms, which I did study with the book of Simha Arom. You use sounds which I like very much, if you can give me a hint where I can get this kinds of sounds, this would be great. Thanks.

Iwan (Igor)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you too!

The percussions that I used come from EthnoWorld, some free patches from G-town and Boldersounds, and from the World Expansion card installed in my Roland XP-30 synth. The anklungs are my own samples which you can download from my site.

[trentpmcd]

I only listen to a couple of sections, but they were great. I also listen to, and enjoyed, Diadem.

[Music_Duck]

[ QUOTE ]

The percussions that I used come from EthnoWorld, some free patches from G-town and Boldersounds, and from the World Expansion card installed in my Roland XP-30 synth. The anklungs are my own samples which you can download from my site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nhick,

I hate to change the flow of this thread, but I have a hardware question related to your use of the Roland XP-30. I am also using this synth to connect to GPO, GigaStudio and Sonar. I find that it works very erratically with GPO, ie. sometimes it produces sound and sometimes it doesn\'t. I am running it through an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard. Any ideas as to what I might be doing wrong?

John

[Nhick Ramiro Pacis]

John,

That has got nothing to do with the XP-30. The problem lies in running GPO, Giga and Sonar all at the same time. This somehow drains the computer of resources, depending on how many patches are loaded in each sampler. Sometimes I just have to bear that erratic behaviour, anticipating that I\'ll get a better \'view\' of the song when all the MIDI tracks have been bounced to wav. When doing that, I make sure I only have one sampler (GPO Player or Gigastudio) open at a time.

It\'s a bit of a pain, but that\'s what I have to live with having only one computer, but it still works!

Now, back to Igor\'s thread...

[KevinKauai]

I don\'t find the link to \"Pictures\" on that page any longer.

Did I miss a \"window of opportunity\" for hearing your interpretation?

kev

[IGOR]

I have to apologize!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I did remove the pictures from my site today. The reason is that they did provoque some unwanted and unfair reaction. This did not happen on this forum, but I did receive it as a private mail.

I did not upload this files for creating some negative comments about the used libraries. I do think that all this libraries are great tools made be very dedicated poeple. I did upload the files just in order to share a MIDI Mockup, which is probably the first in its kind to cover a complete musical standard work of this size. Of course, as anybody, I am very touched by the positive comments I had the chance to recieve and I am also open to constructive critics. I did start with MIDI at age 55, so especially in the audio domain, I am a real amateur. But I can not accept that someone has the need to destruct every bit of my effort, saying among other things that using **** Library is amateurish....and other stupidities like this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif Especially, since I do have the strong impression that this person was writing out of not very noble reasons. So, for this reason I did prefer to put the files down.

The files are many mb, so it is not possible to send them by mail, but I will install an FTP server where they will be available soon. If you like to listen to them, please drop me a mail at iwan.roth@wanadoo.fr (\"iwan.roth@wanadoo.fr\")

Thanks

Iwan Roth

P.S. Hawaii sounds good, maybee I come bring them to you..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nexus]

IGOR,

I can\'t believe anybody would have the arrogance to complain about your fine interpretation!

As for the sample libraries used, if anything you\'ve shown them in their very best light.

I did have the same experience on NS forum once a couple years ago. I posted a famous work (excerpt) using my old Vitous library with samples I \'modified\' myself to make them more playable, yet I was \'blasted\' by certain forum members who hang around the different forums here at NS, \'pros\' I believe. They scoffed at my \'outdated Vitous sound\'.

I also got a scathing email about my piece. I avoided this forum for a long, long time because of that until Gary announced GPO. Still I\'ve been cagey about \'running the NS forum gauntlet\' since by posting my work.

I\'m glad it wasn\'t any members posting here. Probably someone from \'that certain other forum\' we all know.

[IGOR]

Just to put things straight: officially the problem did not came from any forum and unofficially /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif it did not come from any of the NS forums. Theyre is only one comment on another NS forum (sample libraries discussion), which I personally do not consider as problematic or offending in any way.

Iwan

[ghostwriter]

It\'s sad. I\'m such a newbie that most times I feel like people are speaking Latin here. But over the months, because it is such a great group, I am understanding more and more. When I first went to your site I thought, not knowing many classical pieces, \"I heard ELP do Pictures when I was young and loved it! At least I know some of these\" I thought I would listen to parts of the ones I knew just for the fun of it. I was wrong. I listened to every one. I listened to each in a new way. I listened to how they flowed together. They were magnificent and inspiring so I listened to them over and over. I thought about how this could be such a great learning experience since I owned many of the tools you used, I loved the music, and I loved your ability to express them so well. Now someone has robbed me of that chance. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Thank you for the opportunity to experience the work and I know everyone will benefit from your knowledge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John (newbie but learning day by day)

[IGOR]

John,

I am very touched by your post and I hope that the files will soon be available again.

As a musician one normally does not only play or produce for himself, but also in order that it can be heard and enjoyed by others. Some people do make music not only for their pleasure, but also in order to make a living, career and selling it. Of course I do not criticize this, but this is not my case (anymore……) Since the business during the past 30 years became an industry rather than an art form, things have changed very much. Sometime it seems to me that many are unable to listen just to enjoy, but they have to find something to criticize, often not to devaluate the product they are listen to, but to revaluate themselves. This is sad. I remember when I was a teenager listening to the radio, instead of sleeping, just filling my heart, soul and brain with all this great music. I had only a few scratchy ELP at this time. There was music I did like and other not, but that was it. Now people seems to listen in a different way….I mean, what is the sense of music if it has perfect sound, perfect EQ, perfect reverb, uses what one think is THE best and only library and if does not really makes music (art!), at least by my meaning of this words.

On the other hand the sampling community seams to have some very dedicated , enthusiastic and creative people among them, which remembers me my early times in music. Unfortunately there are also some who think that if something does not com from ******, where music was invented……it is of less value. If this is for commercial or ego reasons, I do not know, but I found it very negative.


Iwan

[Styxx]

Forgive me for sounding ignorant but what do you mean by \"Now someone has robbed me of that chance.\" I\'ve been around as long as most if not more in this world. One thing I\'ve learned is there are always new chances for each new day.
I just had to interject here to find out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[mschiff]

Igor,

One thing you can be sure of when you post something on the internet is that it will garner both positive and negative comments. You can learn from both. Personally, I get a lot more out of the negative ones, as you can learn a great deal from them. You will also get some \"knee-jerk\" comments from people who are either jealous of your proficiency or just plain mean. This is a part of the internet culture where anonimity allows people to say things that they would never say to you in person. Don\'t let it affect the way you share your efforts.

There are a LOT more people who listen and don\'t comment at all. So by removing them, all of these people are losing out on a really unique experience.

-- Martin

[ghostwriter]

I agree completely Styxx. There will be many more chances. In this forum it\'s almost endless. But I was looking forward to the chance of studying this work in more detail considering I love the music and have some of the tools that were used to create it.

John

[IGOR]

Thanks for all the feedback.

I do agree with everything which was said, but there is an aspect about this which I would not like to write on any forum, because sometime it can get quite ugly and this is not really what forums are made for, or not?

Anyway the files will be back very soon. I am working on version 07....., where I did use another reverb (hardware instead of software). I am not sure by now if it will be an improvement, but lets hear and see.....

Iwan

[nexus]

Ohh, the reverb was quite nice and fit the piece. Which plug-in did you use?

[IGOR]

I do not feel so sure about the reverb and EQ, I think I want to try if I can make it sound better. The reverb used in the uploaded version was the Waves IR1 convolution reverb, with the included impulses. Now I am making a new mix with the help of a Lexicon mpx 1 and some hardware EQ, which seams easyer for me to control as plug-ins.

Iwan

[IGOR]

The \"Pictures\" File are up again. It is a revised mix. This time only hardware processing was used. No plug-in\'s. The reverb is a Lexicon mpx1 and EQ / compression was made with the onboard tools of the Yamaha 03D mixer.

http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/Text_E/My%20Music_E.htm (\"http://www.iwanroth-sax.com/Text_E/My%20Music_E.htm\")

I am wondering about opinions. Also critical ones.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I am only sensitive to negative critics if they are made out of bad and evil feelings and intentions. Otherwise I do appreciate any kind of comment; as a matter of fact I am very thankful for any suggestion or help, in order to get better.

Iwan

[Haydn]

The reverb is still on the heavy side. It is causing the basses to be boomy and un-defined. Are you using different amounts for each section? I always use less reverb on the strings and usually even less on the basses and cellos to give them more definition. Than I add progressively a little more for the woodwinds, then more for the brass. Finally even more for the percussion.

Reverb is one of those things that is just hard to control and varies quite a bit even with recordings of real orchestras.

[IGOR]

Haydn,

I did exchange all the files once more……This is an alternate mix with less reverb and more difference in amount of reverb between the different instrumental groups. The files do have the same names, so I did not have to reprogram all the links, but they are all from a different mix. If you have the time to listen some of it, I do appreciate your feedback. Your last comment was very pertinent and did help very much

Thanks

Iwan

Iwan

[Haydn]

Getting better although a need just a touch more reverb now. Some of the brass have notes popping out \'ff\' in a few sections in just mf or f passages. If the brass samples have multiple velocity layers, you may want to lower the velocity in these areas.

Noticed what appears to be a wrong note about 1:15 in the first promenade and a few more in the last two bars.

What are you using for making MP3\'s? The EQ seems to be off and it may be caused by your MP3 converter.

I really like the sound of the VSL woodwinds in this piece. The clarinet is just awesome.

BTW, this is quite a large piece to redo just changing reverb settings!! Ouch!

[nexus]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not feel so sure about the reverb and EQ, I think I want to try if I can make it sound better. The reverb used in the uploaded version was the Waves IR1 convolution reverb, with the included impulses. Now I am making a new mix with the help of a Lexicon mpx 1 and some hardware EQ, which seams easyer for me to control as plug-ins.

Iwan

[/ QUOTE ]

Well forum members can call me \'tin-earred\' but I have a 1975 recording of \"Pictures\" that I dearly love, and Iwan\'s version sounds VERY much like this.

Maybe the reverb of his version could be improved but it has a certain \'sound\' to it that works for me on this piece.

[IGOR]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting better although a need just a touch more reverb now. Some of the brass have notes popping out \'ff\' in a few sections in just mf or f passages. If the brass samples have multiple velocity layers, you may want to lower the velocity in these areas.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you are right, but, at least with my equipment, a touch more is already too much..... I am planning to get me a big lexicon PCM 91. Do you thing this would help? I agree with the brass. This is unfortunately a limitation in VSL, it has too few velocity layers, so if you hit the key only a little harder you will have a FF sound. To go back on the MIDI level in order to correct this, would be a very time consuming task which I can not do right now.

[ QUOTE ]
Noticed what appears to be a wrong note about 1:15 in the first promenade and a few more in the last two bars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right again Haydn! The 4th last note on 1st flute is C instead of Bb and at bar 21 second oboe does play Eb instead of E natural. You must have very good ears....For correction, this is the same problem as above and since there are also wrong notes played in real life......and on \"real\" recordings. Most people do not take notice of this and to me it is not really of much importance. I do have old records, such as Beethoven piano sonatas by Alfred Cortot, which are literally full of wrong notes, but it is one of the best interpretation I ever heard. On the other hand I can tell you that I had several opportunities to play under the conducting of Pierre Boulez, who has ears like an electronic machine, (during a rehearsal of Bartok\'s \"Wooden Prince\" he did hear that ONE contrabassist did play a wrong note in the section, while the full orchestra was playing.....) but, for some kind of music, his interpretation could not convince me to be the best. . But this is not meant to be an excuse for playing wrong notes....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
What are you using for making MP3\'s? The EQ seems to be off and it may be caused by your MP3 converter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do use Logic to make the MP3 at 192. In Logic you can directly bounce as MP3 or also convert files to MP3. It is good that you do mention this, because I also did notice a difference between the AIFF and the MP3, but I thougth that this is normal.


[ QUOTE ]
BTW, this is quite a large piece to redo just changing reverb settings!! Ouch!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is very time consuming and I did neglect many other things because of this. But I would like to make it sound good. I will arrange the MIDI files in order that others can use them and give them free for download.

Thank you for your comments

Iwan