Groove Agent

[sjduck]

What a shame they never continued to develop this product. I think that version 1 was excellent but there is so much more potential to be unlocked. According to the developer's forum, they have no desire to do any more work on it.

Steve

[P de Caumette]

What a shame they never continued to develop this product. I think that version 1 was excellent but there is so much more potential to be unlocked. According to the developer's forum, they have no desire to do any more work on it.Steve

Totally agree. Groove Agent potential for developpment is tremendous.
I wasn't aware that they had decided to stop upgrading it! :mad:
That's Steinberg product support for you. Remember XPhraze and a whole bunch of other VSTIs that have had no updates in years?

Grove Agent came out less than a year ago and it is already dumped.
What a dumb move. Maybe sales were not as expected with version 1.0 but I could see how, with a little bit of a vision this could have become a killer application.
Get top drummers to record what they are famous for and cover all styles little by little. Soon enough we'd have an amazing ressource of loops, fills, patterns with great sound and great playing.
XPhraze has great potential too and we were promised new loop banks a while back. Hasn't happened...

This really confirms that one'd better think twice before buying a VSTI from Steinberg.You might end up with a still born (dead at birth)

[Houston Haynes]

Totally agree. Groove Agent potential for developpment is tremendous.
I wasn't aware that they had decided to stop upgrading it! :mad:
That's Steinberg product support for you. Remember XPhraze and a whole bunch of other VSTIs that have had no updates in years?

Actually XPhraze has version 1.2 out in terminal beta, but it ROCKS! I'm assuming that Steinberg will put an installer wrapper around it once they get all of their in-house stuff done. I'm not really concerned, as I've got the beta and it works for me. Wizoo is supposed to be working on some Xpansions for XPhraze (like they're doing for Hypersonic) but no sight of them yet. Again, it's not a concern to me as I like to program my own sounds (and XPhraze let's you import your own samples to map out and use as part of a phraze) but all signs are that development continues.

From my very limited understanding, Groove Agent (like XPhraze) was set up in a partnership between Wizoo and independent developers, with Steinberg managing projects and handling distribution. The business and personal relationships there are complex (and have changed somewhat since Pinnacle acquired Steinberg), and leads to things like we see where there's not much interest among all parties to continue. Besides, Groove Agent was designed to be future-proof to the degree that you can take a part and extract it to MIDI and then use your own drum sounds. That's what I'm doing this weekend with a piece I just remixed. I'm extracting the drum part to MIDI, and then putting each drum on its own track and replacing each instrument with SCARBEE Imperial Drums.

It is a little dissapointing to see things like Groove Agent not receive on-going development - or at least the same team putting their heads together to develop even more innovative music tools. But these instruments really stand on their own and are amazingly flexible. I've barely scratched the surface of what these plugs can do - perhaps after I've milked them for all their worth to me I'll start complaining. That should be in about 10 years... ;)

[Steve Rees]

Nearly all the 'in partnership with Steinberg' VSTi's have gone the same way, with very little development once released (you'll get bug fixes in most cases, but that's about it). Virtual Guitarist, Virtual Guitarist Electric Edition, The Grand, Halion String Edition, and now it seems Groove Agent have all gone the same way in that regard.

In contrast, products like SX, Wavelab and Halion have had excellent development over the past year in my opinion.

Vstack is a bit of a strange one. There have been reports of the 'losing midi' problem for ages, and even now this hasn't been resolved. I can understand people's frustration.

Basically, you have to be careful which product you buy and why (as with any purchase I guess). Many people may have bought Virtual Guitarist thinking 'now that's got potential' not realising that in fact, they had a completed, never to be expanded product.

As far as Groove Agent goes (I don't have it by the way), you could consider looking into something like Drumtrax. It's a collection of midi files for drumkit and additional percussion. They are top quality stuff, and you can learn a lot about programming your own drums grooves from them. Once you've got that skill, you're good to go with whatever sampler and samples (or synth) takes your fancy. You get a massive amount of material for the price. Take a look.............


http://www.drumtrax.com/

Steve

[P de Caumette]

As far as Groove Agent goes (I don't have it by the way), you could consider looking into something like Drumtrax. It's a collection of midi files for drumkit and additional percussion. They are top quality stuff, and you can learn a lot about programming your own drums grooves from them. Once you've got that skill, you're good to go with whatever sampler and samples (or synth) takes your fancy. You get a massive amount of material for the price. Take a look.............
http://www.drumtrax.com/
Steve

Thanks for the link Steve, I'll definetely look into it.

I actually decided to get BFD, just checked out the video. It looks great.

As far as Groove Agent is concerned, 1.0 was just a beginning, lots of styles missing (if i remember correctly, not even one ballad) and would have been great with more styles to come.
Won't happen.
Life goes on

[Houston Haynes]

Thanks for the link Steve, I'll definetely look into it.

I actually decided to get BFD, just checked out the video. It looks great.

As far as Groove Agent is concerned, 1.0 was just a beginning, lots of styles missing (if i remember correctly, not even one ballad)

I remember someone saying the Modern Soul style did a good job - as well as the Slick, Arena, and LA Shuffle styles being able to cover some of that material. Try changing or muting some of the instruments as well as adjusting the range of tempos and you'd be surprised what you'll get from Groove Agent. But in the end it's still a shame that things coudn't go further - like a famous rock band that broke up over something dumb like creative differences or money. ;)

[sporter]

I still sat Groove Agent is one of the most innovative and coolest products to come along in while. I've got midi loops, slicey drummer, audio loops, drumtrax, and a few other items, but nothing comes close to GA for plug and play ease of use. The loops have such nice "real drummer" feel to them. Tracks with GA have a great live feel to them.

There are some buried treasures in GA. The complexity slider actually calls up quite a variation of patterns on some styles. The term "complexity" is a misnomer in many cases, because it actually calls up a whole new and different pattern. If you spend some time checking out all the complexities on all the styles, you'll probably discover some things that are not apparant on the surface.

Also, be sure and use the unlink buttons.

They didn't quite finish the product, AFAIC. The vst automation is broken. Shame, because that's one of the coolest ways to use the product. As it stands now, you have to use trigger notes to make changes happen, which is workable, but it would be so much easier to have automation take care of program changes and such.

Having said all that, I have to agree that more styles, and some basic maintenance would be welcome. My dream would be a Groove Agent dedicated to certain styles. A whole Groove Agent for Rock, another for jazz, another for country.

Hey, I can dream, can't I? :)

[Worra]

What a shame they never continued to develop this product. I think that version 1 was excellent but there is so much more potential to be unlocked. According to the developer's forum, they have no desire to do any more work on it.

Steve

Glad that you like it! I worked together with Sven Bornemark on the actual samples for that one!
Now, I'm not in on this, but I've heard rumours that Sven has gone into the studio again, and I know that it's drums that's been recorded, so there might be an update, but again, I've got no "inside info".
What I do know, is that SampleTekk going to be releasing at least two of the sets as extensive sample-CD's. The kits used for the 50's and 60's set.
There where soooo much more samples from that session than used in GA, and the samples have been totally re-edited from scratch.

[Houston Haynes]

They didn't quite finish the product, AFAIC. The vst automation is broken. Shame, because that's one of the coolest ways to use the product.

I use the VST automation for the standard on/off and fill triggers, as well as recording and playing back pattern changes. So far it all works for me. I'd be curious to know what doesn't work WRT VST - everything I've seen points more to host/wrapper integration.

The thing that I saw that still leaves me scratching my head is the slip in MIDI timing. It seems to be somewhat ASIO-buffer-dependent, but for my money I simply watch how things are set up before I push the notes to a MIDI track and tweak from there.

[Wirebird]

Hi guys,

the designer of Groove Agent here with a message: Don't be so pessimistic :)
I'm not saying that there will be a new version, but you never know. After all, it wasn't all that long ago that Groove Agent was released and although there's always room for improvement (as with anything), I think it stands pretty strong "as is". I use it almost every day for composing, as I even did long before it was released, and it still does the job as intended. I still don't miss any new styles - I always get what I need by using the complexity slider, shuffle, half tempo and even combining several GA's. Currently I'm using GA a lot to play DFH Superior - awesome combination!

If you take a look at other software based instruments, there are some that are almost never updated because they were right on target from the start, like Native Instruments FM7 and B4. Others, like Kontakt are updated because the need improvements on a different level, compatibility, engine improvements and such.
If there's going to be a new version of GA, there has to be really good ideas for improvement to motivate all the work that is involved in a new version and also the cost of an upgrade. The creator Sven Bornemark and I do have a lot of ideas, but we are also very happy with GA as it is. Our goal really was to provide a finished instrument, not a half-baked something that could be useful someday.
But we'll see what happens in the future...

Also, the statement that nothing has happened with GA is not true. I made Groove Agent SE (light version) not too long ago :)

Houston, a little tip: You can hook GA up right away with your sample player instead of creating MIDI tracks first. Just set GA as input and the sample player as output on your MIDI track. That way, you can make adjustments in real-time, and when you're done just record the tracks. You can even use external hardware drum machines, synths or samplers with GA this way.
Also, if you unload the Drum slots on GA when working like this, GA uses very little CPU resources because all it does is play MIDI data and display a GUI.

Cheers,
Wirebird

[sporter]

I use the VST automation for the standard on/off and fill triggers, as well as recording and playing back pattern changes. So far it all works for me. I'd be curious to know what doesn't work WRT VST - everything I've seen points more to host/wrapper integration.

The thing that I saw that still leaves me scratching my head is the slip in MIDI timing. It seems to be somewhat ASIO-buffer-dependent, but for my money I simply watch how things are set up before I push the notes to a MIDI track and tweak from there.


I should have specified: I'm using SX 2 and I do not use a wrapper. I can't get the pattern change buttons to work with automation. I've posted in the GA forum, and others have the same problem.

[TreeHouse]

Wirebird:

Thanks for posting!.... Just wanted to say I use Groove Agent a lot. Pretty much every day. I'm a songwriter (gospel music) and it's become a valuable tool for me. I have a Cubase SX setup which I use for creating demos of new songs that I pitch to artists for recording.

I love the midi export feature in particular. With just a little planning and effort, I can create drum tracks for song demos now in a fraction of the time it used to take. I agree that the complexity slider is one of the real keys to GA. I create midi tracks which I tweak to taste. The midi export feature is a very powerful feature of GA which I use extensively.

The only complaint I have is that I wish there were a broader selection of patterns for ballads like this:

http://www.appointed.net/Appointed%20-%20No%20Fountain%20So%20Sweet_Clip.mp3

Something like this would also be very helpful in my work:
http://www.appointed.net/Appointed%20-%20Beautiful%20Days_Clip.mp3

Is there a way to create "add-on" style and/or pattern modules for GA? If that could be done and sold a separate item, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Anyway, thanks again for a great product.

Tommy Swindle
TreeHouse Recording
Arab, AL

[P de Caumette]

After all, it wasn't all that long ago that Groove Agent was released and although there's always room for improvement (as with anything), I think it stands pretty strong "as is". I use it almost every day for composing, as I even did long before it was released, and it still does the job as intended. I still don't miss any new styles - I always get what I need by using the complexity slider, shuffle, half tempo and even combining several GA's. If you take a look at other software based instruments, there are some that are almost never updated because they were right on target from the start, like Native Instruments FM7 and B4.
If there's going to be a new version of GA, there has to be really good ideas for improvement to motivate all the work that is involved in a new version and also the cost of an upgrade. The creator Sven Bornemark and I do have a lot of ideas, but we are also very happy with GA as it is.

Also, the statement that nothing has happened with GA is not true. I made Groove Agent SE (light version) not too long ago :)

Cheers,
Wirebird

Hi Wirebird, thanks for the follow up.

The above statements show that you guys are very happy with the current version of GA. I don't really agree that there is no need for updates.
The midi implementation is not 100% yet in the way its output faithfully reproduces what is actually playing in the pattern.
When comparing GA to BFD, I think GA could use a few extra drums sets to compete with similar products.
My main concern is that GA styles are still very limited when one looks at the huge variety of contempory (from the 40s onward) popular styles. And yes, GA is missing a whole bunch of them. It might be that what is available now satisfies your needs but it doesn't cut it for me. I write commercials for TV and due to time constraints, I can really use something like GA at times.
Another point is that understandably you hired ONE drummer to play all these styles and he did so in a clean, professional way. But being a jack of all trades is one thing and being a killer, specialized drummer is another. I know funk vey well and I can't say that I am thrilled with the way the funk grooves were played, especially the ones with triplet/shuffle feel (and yes, I am aware of the complexity slider :rolleyes: ). This is the reason why I was suggesting you'd consider hiring top drummers for GA refills.
Imagine offering a Viny Colauta or Steve Gadd refill. Hire a great rock drummer, and cover the rock styles... then a funk drummer and cover the soul/funk/R'n'B styles ...etc
That's what I am looking forward to and I thought could be developped with GA. But unfortunately, I understand you guys are now tied up with Steinberg and there will not be much hope for upgrades in the future. Shame...

I don't consider GA light to be an update. I bought GA, so GA SE is of no use to me.

As is, I still will find use for GA at times but had I known about Steinberg lack of support for it, I would have gotten BFD instead (which I am about to get anyway)

[sporter]

Hey, great to hear from Wirebird. Maybe someone can tell me: what is the best combination of style, slider, complexity or whatever to make a simple, laid back 4/4 country tune. I'm thinking of Don Williams "Mt Best Friend". Also, I have trouble getting the "Nashville" sound..country with a groove type thing. It just seems weak in this area (as do most midi and audio loops I've seen).

Any suggestions?

[TreeHouse]

Sporter:

Are you talking about something like this? Just a little demo of an SG tune I pitched last week...

http://www.appointed.net/Tommy%20Swindle%20-%20The%20Good%20Part%20-%20Demo%20May%2027%202004.mp3

Good luck,
Tommy

[sporter]

Yes, that's the type sound I want, but with the drums more up front in the mix. What setting did you use there?

Is that a real guitar? If that's samples, I gotta have it.

Here's the type thing I would like. I did this in step time, and it sounds rather mechanical, but this is the type patterns I can't seem to find...


http://www.sportersstudio.com/Songs/MBF.mp3

[Wirebird]

Sporter:
I'm not a country musician so I'd better not try and answer, hehe.

TreeHouse:
Thanks for your kind words. Currently there is no way to have add-on styles in GA, it would have to be redesigned for this.
An even broader selection would be nice, I agree.

P de Caumette:
No, GA SE is not an update, I only mentioned it in regards to the general vibe that "nothing has happened since the initial release".
Also, updates are one thing, taking care of bug fixes or future compatibility issues. This is on Steinbergs desk, not ours at all. I thought you guys were primarily talking about new versions with new features.

I disagree about the extra drum sets. The reason is that a larger library would make GA less CPU-friendly, and that's one of the main ideas behind GA. For final productions or variations you hook it up to your library of choice.
GA should not be compared to BFD. Although similar in a sense, they have a different approach. I like the sound of BFD, but it requires a lot more CPU-power and RAM than GA and is therefore of no interest to me as a quick sketchpad/composing tool.

Regarding the MIDI timing issue I believe that's an SX issue, not actually GA. Different hosts have different issues. But then again it doesn't matter to the user having problems. Weird though, 'cos I dont and I'm also using SX 2 (Mac).

Actually - we didn't have one drummer doing all the styles, we had TEN different drummers/programmers doing the styles. I've made two of them myself.
I agree that a Vinnie Colaiuta or Steve Gadd version would be really cool. Personally I wouldn't mind having my own personal Brian Blade GA version - felt mallets mayhem! But there are no limits to what could be done... We'll see what the future holds.

Cheers,
Wirebird

[TreeHouse]

Sporter:

The pattern is the 1963 Train Beat at about 90 BPM. I tweaked the kit a bit to get closer to the sounds I wanted. I can email you a pic of the settings if you like. I think the shuffle is at about 60%. I record the patterns to a midi track and tweak them also, but depending on my schedule I may not do a lot of that. I like the drum editor in SX (believe it or not) because I can manipulate things for whatever I need at a given time very quickly.

The only other thing I did was run the drum mix through the UAD-1.

Oh, almost forgot. The guitar is a Telecaster sample. There's also a steel sample that is shadowing the guitar here and there.

[Houston Haynes]

Imagine offering a Viny Colauta or Steve Gadd refill. Hire a great rock drummer, and cover the rock styles... then a funk drummer and cover the soul/funk/R'n'B styles ...etc

...and GA II would cost $2,000 :p


And BTW, I don't recall having any trouble with recording, playing back or editing VST automation for patterns, fills, etc. - I just get annoyed when the cursor is placed where GA is supposed to be "ON" but the play button hasn't been hit yet - and GA takes off on it's own - VERY VERY ANNOYING.

[TreeHouse]

Sporter:

For the Don Williams tune, what about 1957 shuffle (swing at about 50%). If you tweak around on the kit, it might get you close.

[P de Caumette]

...and GA II would cost $2,000 :p
And BTW, I don't recall having any trouble with recording, playing back or editing VST automation for patterns, fills, etc. - I just get annoyed when the cursor is placed where GA is supposed to be "ON" but the play button hasn't been hit yet - and GA takes off on it's own - VERY VERY ANNOYING.

Not so.
Take a look at the price for Artists Grooves (drums loops): $179.95 for Denis Chambers, Simon Phillips, Kenny Aronoff and Mel Gaynor. Definetely cheaper than what you thought. :rolleyes:
Well, you mentionned earlier that you had midi timing problems so I guess there is room for improvement there as well...
I'm on SX so my little problems are probably caused by the conflict mentioned by Wirebird. The funny part is that this product is distributed by Steinberg and the compability problem is with SX (a Steinberg product) :D

Wirebird,
I had no idea ten drummers played the grooves. I can only remember one drummer being mentionned in the booklet. My bad...
Nice to hear that you also are excited at the idea of great drummers playing some patterns within such a concept. Who knows, maybe one day...? ;)

[Houston Haynes]

Not so.
Take a look at the price for Artists Grooves (drums loops): $179.95 for Denis Chambers, Simon Phillips, Kenny Aronoff and Mel Gaynor. Definetely cheaper than what you thought. :rolleyes:

You could be right - but for some reason I was thinking that you were talking about sampling their kits as well as capturing their "style". If it's just MIDI capture, then it's a much cheaper animal.

[sporter]

[QUOTE=TreeHouse]Sporter:

The pattern is the 1963 Train Beat at about 90 BPM. I tweaked the kit a bit to get closer to the sounds I wanted. QUOTE]

Are those GA samples, or did you use the GA midi file with other samples?

[TreeHouse]

All GA samples. I found that I can get pretty close to what I wantif I eq in SX and put a little UAD-1 on 'em in the mix. I've got the GA outputs split out into 4 channels on the SX mixer....I struggle with the snare though. Just doesn't have that "something", ya know? I'm sending that tune out to a client and I have remixed it this afternoon. I'll post the re-mix tonite if I can get time.

t

[sporter]

All GA samples. I found that I can get pretty close to what I wantif I eq in SX and put a little UAD-1 on 'em in the mix. I've got the GA outputs split out into 4 channels on the SX mixer....I struggle with the snare though. Just doesn't have that "something", ya know? I'm sending that tune out to a client and I have remixed it this afternoon. I'll post the re-mix tonite if I can get time.

t

You do a great job using this stuff in a Southern Gospel/Country Gospel context. I know from experience it isn't easy.

I was playing around with Band in a Box today, and I noticed some of the patterns have names like "Gold City" and "Anchorman". Cool!. I'm going to try to incorporate that in my coming projects for drum tracks. Jammer has some pretty good Country Rock. I always get frustrated because I need breaks and fills that just aren't there, and I end up doing them step time.

Speaking of snares, there's a few good ones in the LM4 II. Sometimes I break out the snare and route it to that module. GA's snares have a trashy sound to me that works great in rock oriented tunes, but I find myself needing a loose, low tuned snare more often. Have you tried doubling a tamborine with the snare? Gives it a nice happy gospel sound.

Thanks for sharing. It's great to run across someone doing this type music. I'm always looking for suggestions!