Ralph Vaughan Williams/ensemble building

[Nicole]

Well needless to say there are not enough solo instruments for this piece! Nonetheless I found it fun playinig around with the opening and using a TON of solo instruments + sections to form groups. This piece was meant to be played in , well ill pull out the quote!"written with the ascoutics of Gloucester Cathedral in mind, which was where it was first performed. In fact, three independent ensembles make up the orchestra: a large group, a smaller 9-player ensemble,and a string quartet". Hence the enourmous amount of reverb on the cathedral setting:) If anyone has ever had the pleasure of hearing this recorded the way it was meant, its beyond words.

Anyway to sum it up, If you have heard the piece recorded properly you will find an extreme range in dynamics, sometimes almost inaudible. I normalized it but I was half tempted not to and leave it as is. But what the heck:) This segmont I think shows that GPO sectional building is alot more intimite then the full sections. The ability to control each individual is fun! This is an excerpt. Midi data is more work then I ever thought lol.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/delly/Fantasia%20on%20a%20Theme%20of%20Thomas%20Tallis.m p3

[danpowers]

Wow, Nicole, what a gorgeous job! I hated for it to cut off in the middle like that, I wanted to hear more. The section which follows has some of the most beautiful string orchestra writing anywhere. Are you planning to continue? I hope you will!

(Years ago I had the pleasure of playing this piece. It turned out to be a somewhat terrifying experience. I was assistant principal viola, and our principal came down with the flu on the day of the concert. I had to sight-read the very exposed viola solo at the performance. It's not like it was a terribly difficult solo or anything, but it's still not an experience I'm anxious to repeat!)

[jmc]

Amazing work, Nicole. I love VW's writing...so beautiful. Your performances sound excellent. I second danpowers; please continue!

[Nicole]

(Wow, Nicole, what a gorgeous job! I hated for it to cut off in the middle like that, I wanted to hear more. The section which follows has some of the most beautiful string orchestra writing anywhere. Are you planning to continue? I hope you will!)

Thank you, im not sure if im continuing or not. This was an experiment using the single string players to create the main body. To continue I would have to free those up I guess and make them the pre ensembled patches to give room to the added two groups:( Its why I said there are not enough solo strings to finish this the way I built it! :)

(Years ago I had the pleasure of playing this piece. It turned out to be a somewhat terrifying experience. I was assistant principal viola, and our principal came down with the flu on the day of the concert. I had to sight-read the very exposed viola solo at the performance. It's not like it was a terribly difficult solo or anything, but it's still not an experience I'm anxious to repeat!)
I bet, I find even his often simplicity in the soloist's melodies to be delicate and so full of feeling! Your lucky to have played this piece imo. I think Vaughan created some of the most beautiful music. Being a pianist there is not much call to play stuff like this. Best I can do is create a reduction, or realise it on GPO hehe. Guess ill have to find a workaround if I plan to continue and break down and use sections.

[Nicole]

Amazing work, Nicole. I love VW's writing...so beautiful. Your performances sound excellent. I second danpowers; please continue!

Thank you as well. Like I said above im not sure how I would go about it without being forced into using sections:(

[Nicole]

BTW HOW did this end up on general discussion!:)

[Joseph Burrell]

Oh my lord. Do you tutor? This is excellent. Simply beautiful. I wish I could get the small string ensembles to sound like that. I can't get the Stradi's or the Guarn... to blend like this. You have mastered GPO, congratulations. Bow, scrape.

[Nicole]

Oh my lord. Do you tutor? This is excellent. Simply beautiful. I wish I could get the small string ensembles to sound like that. I can't get the Stradi's or the Guarn... to blend like this. You have mastered GPO, congratulations. Bow, scrape.
Well since I started this I think it was friday or thursday, It was inspired by the discussion topic of individual sections working as a whole. I was then curious to find out for myself how it sounded. Well during the initial first try I ran into problems, like losing track of midi channels and wondering what that wierd phase was(same instrument assigned to the same channel a few times lol). After I discovered how to fix that it was just alot of time playing with the same few bars over and over, listen to the recording, and repeat. If you notice just the high violins long sustained part there is wavering here and there in volume. Its the little things I think that need more attention like that and trying to find the right volume balance with each solo section (but never make it exactly the same as the next). Sorta follow the volume pattern with the draw thingy for each player but never make it exact. This is the coolest part I think because the same note has the possibility of not sounding the same twice like the section patches!

[RichG]

Nicole,

This is one of my favorite pieces, and you are doing a wonderful job realizing it with GPO. If you can, it would be wonderful if you could finish it so Gary could post it on the GPO demo page.

Can you, please?!

[Houston Haynes]

Fantastic rendition - and proof positive ONCE AGAIN the that ensemble builder concept works. I hope that you can one day have enough solo strings on hand to do a complete rendering (and enough time to draw in those controllers). ;)

[PianoMan]

Nicole,
You must be a very cruel person! I was happily floating off into a different dimension when all of a sudden... I fell flat on my .... :)

So I have to get in line and ask you to please finish this!

Wonderfully done,
Dennis

[Nicole]

Nicole,

This is one of my favorite pieces, and you are doing a wonderful job realizing it with GPO. If you can, it would be wonderful if you could finish it so Gary could post it on the GPO demo page.

Can you, please?!
If he decides he likes it then he is free to put it up as is just as an excerpt of how solo instruments combined sound. To be honest the length of the piece and the problem of Vaughan having written for two extra ensembles for this piece kinda makes it tough. They havnt even enetered the ball game yet in the excerpt, but its just around the corner and my intention was again to see for myself what kind of sound solo instruments made combined compared to full ensemble and I already have used up the resources. If I had to continue I would be forced to use pre made ensembles to free up solo instruments, that would change the sound from the beginning and I think also weaken it.

[fred Holmes]

My favorite composer - My favorite composition of his for string orchestra - brought tears to my eyes-can say no more

Fred

[Twinset]

Nicole,
You obviously put a great deal of work into this, and it has paid off. I've read a few things about ensemble building, but have yet to try it to this extent. Spurred on by you, I must give it a go.

David

[dewdman42]

The thing I like about this ensemble building technique..in the last little bit just before the sound ends...there are a couple crescendos with the strings..that just sound so convincing to me. More convincing then if it were a single "ensemble sample" being crescendo'd....

[nexus]

Fantastic rendition - and proof positive ONCE AGAIN the that ensemble builder concept works. I hope that you can one day have enough solo strings on hand to do a complete rendering (and enough time to draw in those controllers). ;)
Yes it DOES work! For this KIND of piece, though (and this is my favorite string work). A great job Nicole!!!

[audiopHoBic]

One of my favourite pieces of music ever -great job Nicole! Some of the most convincing strings I've heard using GPO. Could you post an instrument list so we can see how you constructed the sections?

You mentioned Gloucester Cathedral- are you local? As a Gloucestershire lad, I'm very familiar with this great building. A recent TV special broadcast this work from the cathedral -it was stunning and shows how a sacred building is good for more than just Harry Potter locations!

Andy

http://www.audiopHoBic.com

[trentpmcd]

Very nice. I agree it would be nice to have more solo strings for larger ensembles, particularly violas - the three violas in my section are drowned out by two violin sections of 9 players each. ANyway, I hope to hear more of this, though don't spend so much time on it that you stop working on your own piece.

[Hardy Heern]

Wonderful effort Mrs Davis (if I may be so formal)

Nicole, you have really cracked GPO and MIDI in my HO! You are rapidly becoming one of the star attractions here!

You're SO not wrong.....MIDI detailing is one heck of a lot of work! Only for those of us gifted with patience. I can't believe how many 'names' (in the sample business) try to play the samples (piano style) straight out of the box. They're really not using their ears.

Nicole; you use your ears......and how!

Frank

[Nicole]

One of my favourite pieces of music ever -great job Nicole! Some of the most convincing strings I've heard using GPO. Could you post an instrument list so we can see how you constructed the sections?

You mentioned Gloucester Cathedral- are you local? As a Gloucestershire lad, I'm very familiar with this great building. A recent TV special broadcast this work from the cathedral -it was stunning and shows how a sacred building is good for more than just Harry Potter locations!

Andy

http://www.audiopHoBic.com
Sorry for late response, been away. No im not fortunate enough to be local to that Cathedral!:)

ok ill have to open the file now once again to see what I did heh. I have uploaded two different versions after alot of loading and unloading things and playiing with the midi and the final one that I was satisfied with has this set up.

First violins are gagli and strad mixed with a really light almost inaudible 1st violins mute ensemble. Same with second but used the guarns with this since I hogged the other sections. I loaded different ones and played back each till I was satisfied when comparing it to the recording and overal volume. Violas are all the available solos. Same with cellos, the cellos in the opening have the highest number of division and I cant tell which is asigned to what lol if I look at the track view only. I just loaded a bunch and started working with it. The sonar track view is a mess and I had to physically open each kontakt player to see what I used, but I did make sure each had its own track so you could physically make each one not play exactly like the other. I think thats the most important part is the modulation data window/timing data not being exact for everything. Even in the octave long sustained violins part i messed with the volume just slightly so it sorta wavers. I hope I posted this right lol. This sort of thing makes using full ensemble patches for sections much easier. Keeping track of what is what took alot of patience on my end lol. I had visions of tossing the computer thru the window:) Oh yea the pizz trems and basses were just premade ensemble. I hope I made sense. And people want me to finish this??? It was just an experiment and believe me im slow. I would work only on one bar at a time for up to an hour if needed lol. Im really slow please dont make me do this whole song!

BTW still no one has told me how this ended up in general discussion when I posted it in the midi/demo section! Answers I need answers lol:)

[Nicole]

Wonderful effort Mrs Davis (if I may be so formal)

Nicole, you have really cracked GPO and MIDI in my HO! You are rapidly becoming one of the star attractions here!

You're SO not wrong.....MIDI detailing is one heck of a lot of work! Only for those of us gifted with patience. I can't believe how many 'names' (in the sample business) try to play the samples (piano style) straight out of the box. They're really not using their ears.

Nicole; you use your ears......and how!

Frank
LOL thank you, but its also helpful that Mr Vaughan williams with orchestral music is to me what chopin is to my piano. I love just about anything, but having Vaughan as one of my favorites for orchestral music seems to help in my dedication to do his music justice on a computer hehe. I do no less when I play chopin. I get lost in it.

[KevinKauai]

Brilliant, believable sound! I'm not sure that I could distinguish the three separate ensembles that you described, but the overall effect is thrilling!

Kudos and congrats! Kev

[Nicole]

Brilliant, believable sound! I'm not sure that I could distinguish the three separate ensembles that you described, but the overall effect is thrilling!

Kudos and congrats! Kev
Ok I loaded just ensemble patches and just assigned violins 1 ,2, violas, cellos, pre ensemble to one trackthat was one of the solos and muted the pizz and bass then cut up the wav (because I have limited bandwidth and also no sense in hearing the whole thing twice, just to hear the difference) I touched nothing accept the mute button on the pizz and other solo instruments accept the tracks I replaced with just full ensembles. repeated notes sound exactly the same and the variation is not there when using just ensembles.
http://home.cfl.rr.com/delly/samewithensemble.mp3

[Garritan]

Bravo Nicole!

Thanks for demonstrating the ensemble making ability of GPO. Your demo says more about ensemble building than a thousand words can describe.

I agree with you that "GPO sectional building is alot more intimite then the full sections. The ability to control each individual is fun!"
Sure it is more work, but one can become each string player and become intimate with every part, play each part differently, impart life into each line and react to the other parts. Your use of this feature is outstanding.

Your insights and technique perhaps may serve as a basis for a user tutorial to help other users who may want to develop ensemble building skills.

I appreciate your sharing this with the rest of us.


Gary Garritan

[Nicole]

Bravo Nicole!

Thanks for demonstrating the ensemble making ability of GPO. Your demo says more about ensemble building than a thousand words can describe.

I agree with you that "GPO sectional building is alot more intimite then the full sections. The ability to control each individual is fun!"
Sure it is more work, but one can become each string player and become intimate with every part, play each part differently, impart life into each line and react to the other parts. Your use of this feature is outstanding.

Your insights and technique perhaps may serve as a basis for a user tutorial to help other users who may want to develop ensemble building skills.

I appreciate your sharing this with the rest of us.


Gary Garritan
Ok got back from an almost 2 day stay in the keys, left very early this morning to beat traffic(would still rather be there :)). I have spent the last 20 minutes trying to figure out how to explain this and that it was mainly trial and error and reading. But ill try. I had to figure out how to take screenshots in windows. I have no clue how this would pertain to the other sequencers if at all:(

I will concentrate on the time frame and first phrase starting at 1:08 to aprox 1:19. At this point I think is the most noticable difference because of the huge unison between the various groups.

First I wrote the phrase in the staff mode(lol sonar makes you lazy in playing but you have the ability to move notes and durations so I see nothing wrong with using its crummy staff).

http://home.cfl.rr.com/delly/staff.JPG

Next I copied it to all the tracks that were gonna play this same part then used the function slide for each individual (slide in ticks ranging from -20 to +20 and if I recal one or two even a bit higher) and moved them around in time so nothing was exact(even the original).Oh ,make sure the velocity isnt to high as to give a harder attack sound.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/delly/slide.JPG

Lastly , I spent time with each individual drawing in controllers(I found my skills in using the actual wheel pale in comparison to drawing) for the modulation. This took the longest because I tried to achieve an even balance yet try to keep nothing exactly the same. Each has a slightly different shape, start time, and end time. In conjunction I also had a live recording and the score rdy for reference, but to be honest after inputing the notes I referenced the recording more then the score having heard this a thousand times from a few different recordings. It helps I think to have a recording of what your trying to emulate preferably a live rendition and not "studio". Thats my opinion ofcourse but the non live one will be alot more processed imo.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/delly/modulation.JPG

I keep thinking about this lol. One more thing I forgot to mention was tempo. Can anyone really play at an exact tempo consistantly? :) Anyway I think messing around with the tempo and keeping it from being static helps as well.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/delly/tempo.JPG

I hope this helps and is what you asked for. I tried best to explain how I come across thru trial and error with this.

Forgot to mention Cellos 5-8 are playing almost the exact thing as the bass pizz in this particular time frame. Or should I say vice versa? :) The way I have setup the windows in sonar are probably different then others as well. I dont know. I dont know if im going about it the hard way or the easy way to be honest. But for me its simplest to have the tracks and piano roll view open at the same time.

[Garritan]

Nicole,

Yours is an effective and time consuming approach to ensemble building. The usual way is to record each and every string part to build an ensemble. This could be very time-consuming during unison parts.

Copying the same parts, moving things around and slightly modifying the part for each player will save time. I like the idea of using the Sonar slide/offset function to vary start times to stagger the instruments and create a more natural legato. Using the slide function and then drawing controller data variations is quicker than playing each line separately.

Using reference recordings is what professionals do. Doing an A/B comparison helps acheive the sound you are after.

Thanks for sharing your tips. I'm sure many will benefit from your ideas.

Gary Garritan

[dewdman42]

I guess its only a matter of time before someone makes a Sonar plugin (for those people lucky enough to be using Sonar or Cubase) which automagically does all this copying of unison parts....with each copy getting sensible semi-random variations in mod wheel cresc, tuning, etc.. Or maybe a few version of GPO will do this sort of thing automatically? IN otherwords, we simply say we want an ensemble part and we play the notes with their desired dynamics...and then GPO automagically plays it through layers of solo instruments with the offsets and differnet CC curves all generated on the fly.... am I dreaming?

[matolen]

I wonder if there is a similar process in Cubase using, say, the Kontakt VST where you can layer in instruments and vary them...hmmm...

Mark L.

[Skysaw]

Next I copied it to all the tracks that were gonna play this same part then used the function slide for each individual (slide in ticks ranging from -20 to +20 and if I recal one or two even a bit higher) and moved them around in time so nothing was exact(even the original).Oh ,make sure the velocity isnt to high as to give a harder attack sound.

What I use in Sonar is random quantization slip. It mixes the parts up in a more unpredictable manner. You can even tell it to quantize 0% (not at all), and still have it randomize the start and end times of notes.

[EricWatkins]

This is a very beautiful piece and very well rendered. Why havent I heard of Ralph Vaughan Williams before? Been living in the box for too long I guess. Thanks for the great post and the inspiration Nicole. Please keep up the great work.

Eric

[RichG]

This is a very beautiful piece and very well rendered. Why havent I heard of Ralph Vaughan Williams before? Been living in the box for too long I guess. Thanks for the great post and the inspiration Nicole. Please keep up the great work.

Eric

RVW was a great composer. If you enjoy symphonies, listen to his nos. 2, 5, 7 & 8 (my favorites of his).

Rich