3rd Party Use of VSL Performance Tool

[andyt]

As I was perusing the VSL site today and reflecting on the phenomena of the whole VSL, especially the consistent articulations and performances across all their products .... it occured to me that it might be possible for 3rd party sample developers to take advantage of the VSL performance tool.

- What is to stop a developer creating a set of patches for their latest library that could use the performance tool to perform legato and repeated notes ?

- obviously prsopective buyers would already have had to have bought one of VSL's libraries already, to get access to the performance tool.

- but I can see no technical reason (currently) that would prevent the use of the performance tool on a 3rd party set of samples provided they were set up correctly.

- obviously there is a moral and legal side to the discussion.


---- and then I thought bit more. With the new GS3 capabilities ... will a performance-tool-like capability already built into GS3 mean that VSL's "performance tool" competitive advantage is only valid for a few more weeks ?


(I've no agenda here ... I'm not a developer .. I just like thinking about the business side of this industry, and the different business strategies of the various developers.)

[MalteRathke]

Hi andyt,

I think it's not about the tool itself, it's more about the samples. Writing a tool for alternation for example is not a very hard task. In fact Kontakt has "round robin" and Halion may have something similar.

The performance tool is continously analyzing the midi-input. If you play in legato mode, you have a (configurable) timespan and if two consecutive notes have note off (first note) and note on (second note) within this timespan, the performance tool is triggering a adequate legato sample for the second note. The portamento/glissandi modes work similar. So the tool is not the important part, it could easily be replaced I think, but having legato samples (transitions from one note to another) and portamento samples and such, that is the key.

Take a look at http://www.fx-max.com/amp.html - Max is working at something similar, you *just* need the correct library :)

Malte

[Marcussen]

Right... so if someone went to the enourmous lengths of sampling as many articulations as VSL, they might aswell do the tool aswell.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Yes, the tool was a very nice piece of development, but the real trick is knowing how to get what you need in a session (and having the man-hours to do the back end editing).

[Ken-P]

---- and then I thought bit more. With the new GS3 capabilities ... will a performance-tool-like capability already built into GS3 mean that VSL's "performance tool" competitive advantage is only valid for a few more weeks ?

I guess so. I am pretty sure that other samplers like Kontakt will follow to have same function.

[MalteRathke]

---- and then I thought bit more. With the new GS3 capabilities ... will a performance-tool-like capability already built into GS3 mean that VSL's "performance tool" competitive advantage is only valid for a few more weeks ?
As I stated above, the performance tool is a really nice piece of software to take advantage of the *performance library* VSL is offering (or the performance patches in the horizon series). So even if GS3, Halion, Kontakt or whatever might have something similar integrated in the future, you would have to buy a library that actually has the needed samples for any performance tool to work. So if GS3 has something similar, what would it be good for if you don't have i.e. a patch with real portamento samples? The tool is only for controlling which sample/articulation is to be played. So without VSL (or other library developers adding specific samples for glissandi, portamento, legato) I see no way to get the power of VSL - that is: if you really want those features, get VSL, a tool alone want help much.

Malte

[unconscious sound]

I talked to a distributor who went to NAMM when they unveiled GS3 in action. He told me that GS3 will have the MIDI tools of the Performance Tool built into itself. I don't know to what extent, but from the way he said it, it sounds like it will do everything the Performance Tool can do currently. <---Speculation Only! :)

If you think about this, it makes sense for VSL to hand over these functions to Tascam. It would be alot nicer doing all of the programming in one single interface, than to do it with two or more programs.

[andyt]

As I stated above, the performance tool is a really nice piece of software to take advantage of the *performance library* VSL is offering (or the performance patches in the horizon series). So even if GS3, Halion, Kontakt or whatever might have something similar integrated in the future, you would have to buy a library that actually has the needed samples for any performance tool to work.
Malte

Yes, Malte ... that was my whole point. I KNOW the performance tool is useless without the correct samples. My point was that developers who wanted to develop a legato / perfromance library did NOT have develop a similar performance tool. My point was they could either;

- rely on a user already owning the performance tool
- or use the capabilities in-built in GS3

I also disagree with the point that a developer may as well develop their own tool. This is a completely diffferent skill set ... and the user community would not be greatful for a proliferation of performance tools.

I also disagree with your point about "might as well buy" VSL, on two points.

1. I was making no assumption about re-using the performance tool for orchestral samples.
2. I was talking about using the technology from a developers perspective.

But thanks for your thoughts.


If it is true that VSL have helped Tascam build performance tool like capabilities into GS3, this is a really, really interesting business strategy. A key differentiator of VSL was undoubtedly its performance / legato capabilities. This is indisputable I think.

By handing over the performance tool technology to Tascam, they are being very generous, but they are lowering the barriers for other developers to start developing repetition / legato based sample libraries.

I am really intrigued by their calculations to make this decision. This is a business decision, but I cannot work out why they would do it (even though I am very happy that they have.)

[MalteRathke]

Hmm, if all functions are covered within GS3, I think the VSL guys might offer a GS-Performance file (GSP) for GS3 users that will take advantage of the new functions within gigastudio. Although from what I hear, they have plenty of stuff on their todo-list and this could be on pretty low priority.

Malte

[MalteRathke]

Hi andyt,

sorry I just realized - before your last post :) - that I misunderstood one or two of your thoughts. Sorry - must be my bad english :(

I just tried to make clear that I don't think VSL has an outstanding tool or some kind of revolutionary technology behind it. From a developers view (although I don't develop audio/midi applications) I'm - please don't take me wrong - pretty amused about "handing over the performance tool technology to Tascam" as from my point of view the performance tool *technology* is the very least point to worry about. I hope that I don't stink around here when I'm saying that I could develop a similar tool and I'm far away from being a *master* developer. From my understanding that is ... maybe I'm wrong.

As I said, I don't want to offend, but giving the overall problem of creating the needed samples and playback technology, the performance tool is a pretty simple one :)

Malte

[andyt]

Hi Malte,

Yeah .. agree with you there. The perfromance tool isn't exactly rocket science. Most of the cost and time surely goes into creating the endless intervals required for legato ...but still it is a hurdle that no developer has sought to emulate yet.

I'm wondering whether VSL realise that the value of their performance set is in the samples, and they themselevs realise that the performance tool is the easier component to imitate. If that is the case their strategy to help Tascam becomes a little more sensible ...

1 - if other comanies started implementing legato with their own performance tools .. there is a risk that someone could come up with a better solution than VSl.
2 - by offering the technology to GS3, they are in a way helping their particular implementation become the de facto standard.
3 - if their solution does become the de facto standard ... it means that their investment becomes more secure ... and less likley to be challenged by new solutions.
4 - I guess also,they thought that having their solution to legato as the common way of doing things ... is better than Tascam or FX-Max developing their own solutions.
5 - It might also mean that once adopted by the Gigastudio community they would not have to invest any more in its development or maintenance. They can focus investment on libraries and marketing.

[Scott Cairns]

Didn't Herb and the VSL team assist in the technology for the GS3 midi rules? I seem to remember reading that here at one point.

It seems your wish might come true Andy. (At least for GS3 lib's)

[MalteRathke]

Most of the cost and time surely goes into creating the endless intervals required for legato ...but still it is a hurdle that no developer has sought to emulate yet.
Maybe, without the legato samples, there was no need for developers to come up with a tool like this. The market is exploding right now, articulations are becoming real hard to manage, so the time for such a *generic* tool is maybe just right.

I just think they had an great idea in mind and because no sampler offered a solution, they just developed their very own tool. And of course VSL didn't invented this kind of stuff: long before VSL came out, there was Gary Garritan's GOS and the Maestro tool and there was the word building utility from VOTA. Both doing some pretty similar things (ok, VOTA is a little bit different). I believe that if GS and EXS had these features implemented the time they started constructing their library, they maybe wouldn't have bothered having such a tool anyway. It is the huge amount of articulations and samples that makes it unique, having a tool to control it is just a logical step further. My personal opinion is, that they haven't had something in mind that would better their position in the market with this tool - the overall idea is just a pain in the .... inconvenient .... without proper control.

I better stop now, but I got your point andyt.

Regards,

Malte

[JohnCarter]

Hi andyt,

sorry I just realized - before your last post :) - that I misunderstood one or two of your thoughts. Sorry - must be my bad english :(

I just tried to make clear that I don't think VSL has an outstanding tool or some kind of revolutionary technology behind it. From a developers view (although I don't develop audio/midi applications) I'm - please don't take me wrong - pretty amused about "handing over the performance tool technology to Tascam" as from my point of view the performance tool *technology* is the very least point to worry about. I hope that I don't stink around here when I'm saying that I could develop a similar tool and I'm far away from being a *master* developer. From my understanding that is ... maybe I'm wrong.

As I said, I don't want to offend, but giving the overall problem of creating the needed samples and playback technology, the performance tool is a pretty simple one :)

Malte
performance tool is a revolutionary technology, yes the programming of this software is EASY but the whole idea of recording interval notes, starting notes to destination notes samples, repetitions that are FULLY controllable, it's revolutionary. I don't think you would have find the idea .

[JohnCarter]

you know why nobody tried to do a similar thing ?

Because legato samples need to be recorded in a totally (or almost) dry ambiance, that's a fact, i heard ewqlso will do legato samples but i'm a bit pessimist, it will be impossible to record them in a big hall like the ewqlso hall... and after during the post-production cut the samples because of the reverb .

[MalteRathke]

I don't think you would have find the idea .
Oops, so I actually *did* offend .. sorry wasn't my intention to do so. And yes, I think you are absolutely right. But the reason is not because I'm too much of an idiot (which I might be though), but because I actually never sampled any kind of instrument. But believe me - we are still focused on the tool here, right? - if the VSL Performance Set would have been released without this tool, just plain samples, besides that they would have had less sales in the first place, lots of people would have said "arhh .. would be cool if this or that could be done automatically...". I guess we only need common sense to agree here, right? And at this point, when the problem is realized, the solution is not far away and - this was what I tried to make clear - the task to actually develop such a tool isn't a really hard one. You know, it wasn't about having the idea of creating such a great library, it was only the technically aspect I talked about.

Malte

[andyt]

Hi Malte .. I don't think you've offended anyone in the slightest. Thanks for your thoughts.

Still haven't heard anyone speculating as to why VSL would have helped Tascam implement the perfromance tool in GS3. Its great that they have .... but what is their business rational ?