Long lasting discussion

[pendragon]

Hi,

Right, I\'ll cut to the chase... where does it leave real talents (keyboard, drums, guitar etc..) if technology continues to progress like hellfire and in a certain amount of time giving every single NONMUSICAL person the opportunity to play like the best drummer/guitarist/keyboard player with the press of a singe button?????

Meaning where does the appreciation stays for those who can really play and compose?

Everything is getting more realistic daily (56 Stratocaster, drum series 1 etc...) but one small thing is forgotten and that\'s when you come on stage in a stadium and people see a computer that plays a concert, you are getting laughed at and not taken seriously.

So, even if you reach the level of reality even Pink Floyd, Clapton or whoever thinks it\'s real, the masses tell you .... yeah... but everybody can do ultra realistic music these days.

Your visions please, I\'m feeling that in a couple of years when computers get 50/60 Ghz we (musicians) become discriminated by our own beloved technology!

Who the hell wants to go to the Royal Institute of Music when a 4 year old child plays licks better then Steve Howe/Clapton/Hendrix with the press of a button????

Peace,
PDG

[This message has been edited by pendragon (edited 02-05-2002).]

[PeterRoos]

Personally I think this is a non-issue.

Talent will always be an essential ingredient that has to be present before a new masterpiece can be created, with or without technology.

Are you actually serious?

Don\'t forget that any new technology also has to be mastered before its application can standout from ordinary and boring pushbutton applications.

Compare the former UK band Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark with Jeremy Soule. Silly, but effective contrast.

[pendragon]

Peter, but what if the mastering becomes dead simple? we all have spend years to master the midi complexity...

Dus Peter, you think that in order to create a masterpiece the individual talent will overcome? But how are you going to present your masterpiece when globally the appreciation of computer generated tracks is close to zero?

Once again thanks for your insights in this serious subject http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[PeterRoos]

I don\'t think this discussion is going anywhere... IMHO

I just don\'t see a fundamental difference between
- learning to master an electronic studio for making inspired music and
- learning to master any \'old-fashioned\' instrument for making inspired music.

Both require the same human assets, like musicality, dexterity, persistence, inspiration, etc.

Cheers,
Peter

[pendragon]

Peter toch, snap nu eens dat als het zo doorgaat met de software je geen zak meer hoeft te weten/kunnen of talent te hebben.

Die klote DJ\'s die heel de muziekscene verkut hebben maken megahit na megahit met hun crappy fruityloops en dat soort **** software.

Discussion is still open .....
Suppose you are a talented bassguitar player and you listen to some computer generated pieces that is impossible for you to play and has a sound ten times better then your real life bass, how do you feel?

The bassline is generated by random composition software that generates all styles, all blends and used articulations, aftertouch/velocity switching etc... Plus it\'s done by a A-musical person, how do you feel?

[PeterRoos]

You asked for opinions, I gave mine. I\'m out of this topic, this is going nowhere.

[Simon Ravn]

Pendragon, who are talking about generating random basslines using stuff like \'Band in a Box\' or something? I think only hobbyists do that, because they can\'t really compose (yet?). Anyway I agree that a rockconcert performed by a computer would not be very interesting. However, techno concerts and stuff is where you HAVE to use computers for much of the stuff, if it is stuff with a lot of things happening all the time. And in the other direction, computers have given me the possibility to fool around with orchestral film music - a style that I was brought up with through moviemaking and got interested in pretty early in my life. However I am not kidding myself and pretending to be a good composer in the way the way I regard the big Hollywood (and non-HW) filmcomposers. Eventually I would like to be able to write partially on paper, since I also thinks it makes you focus more on composition than technique. But thankfully there are people like Danny Elfman who has gotten a long way without any formal training, so I can always look at him and say \'See - it can be done!\' http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

[Beckers]

No, I think Pendragon makes a good point, in whichever language he wants to express it. Millions of records are sold, produced by technicians with only a modicum of musical talent, freqently by raiding the results of talent from the past. I think this is leading to a dumbing down of the audience, a loss of appreciation for the art of the master composer and exquisite musicianship, and the \"verkutting\" of the music scene. Is this not threatening? Is the audience for real talent contracting? (I feel aggrieved by what hip-hop has done to soul music)

I think this is true in the (mass) pop market, but not in film/TV music market and definitely not for the serious music audience. It takes enormous talent to satisfy these markets, irregardless of the medium: I think anyone who can make computer generated music that has the same expressive nuance and emotive effect as a real top flight orchestra is a maestro indeed.

[Bill]

> leading to a dumbing down of the audience

I think it’s the other way ‘round. The less demanding audience doesn’t know the difference between a master musician and the musical technocrat. And, because the master musician may not have a great a**, or dance well on stage, people might have to pay attention to the music itself. Attention Deficit Disorder is the disease of the new age.

[porterpe]

These same arguments were made when the piano was first introduced hundreds of years ago. As it was then, and as it is now, talent and hard work will always be the key ingredient for becoming successful in the music business just as it is in any creative endeavor. The new technology is only a tool for those inclined and equipped to use it. However, those that refuse to embrace this new technology they will surely be unable to compete in the future just as were those that refused to accept the piano long ago.

[jberton]

Talent will always prevail!

[Z6]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pendragon:
Thanks all for yer insights http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Kasparov (chess world master) lost from Big Blue, a supercomputer wich now is already absolete.. how did the computer won? by calculating millions of moves against 1 from Kasparov, the result was he lost time after time.


[This message has been edited by pendragon (edited 02-05-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This isn\'t entirely true. Kasparov was well-annoyed because even though the computer was using a brute force approach, the programmers were re-programming in-between moves. So humans were involved (both programmers and teams of grandmasters). In effect, Kasparov wasn\'t playing a computer, he was playing a team of grandmasters plus a computer that can check various lines faster than humans (not all lines though). And Kasparov did it for the money, he probably couldn\'t be bothered trying: remember that he was so used to laughing at computers, he let his guard down. He didn\'t get beaten again and again as you suggest, he was beaten in a series of games and I\'m sure he\'s holding out for giant bucks to do it again. Next time he\'ll take it seriously (and he certainly won\'t allow them to re-program while in mid game.)

And bear in mind that chess, complex as it is, is finite, music is not. We probably will see computers (and already have, I suppose) composing, getting hits etc. But, even though say, Bach or Mozart is (relatively) easy to formulate a set of rules to get a pastiche of, it will always miss the human \'genius\'. Using rules (the \'expert system\' approach), you can write pretty convincing Bach which very quickly becomes boring, then annoying (not unlike this post really).

Neural networks may be able to analyse (and ape) music then reproduce (or produce) great music. I haven\'t heard it yet, but I\'m sure it will come eventually. But there will always be room for human creativity and ingenuity. If a neural network starts to come up with wondeful stuff, then humans will \'absorb\' that style and probably improve it.

The real question is whether a computer will ever be able to write soemthing like \'Achey Breaky Heart\':-) I doubt it (and god help us all if that happens).

[gabriels]

I think it was Isaac Azimov who said, when asked what he felt about the possibility that computers would take over the earth by surpassing the abilities of humans:
\"I\'m in favor of intelligent live, no matter what form it takes.\"
In that vein, maybe it\'s not so important what _we_ think about the music. There might someday be sentient life that will appreciate what we cannot, since we are limited by our predisposition to music made by talented humans.
In the meantime, I\'m sure someone will still like your clunky and painstaking simian attempts at creation, no matter how inferior it is to the polished works of the Crays of the future.
Gabriel

[Chadwick]

I\'ve had this discussion with friends several times. So what if they make a $99 casio that sings and dances and writes algorithmic music. What happens when you walk up to the casio and say \'I\'d like the music for this scene to be edgy but not instrusive, a little like the music that composer X did for film Y in such and such a scene?

The casio will sit there dumb until you hit the \'platinum dance album\' button, and then give you something generic. Forget it.

I can program. I\'ve got good gear. I have Thomas Scarbye\'s great basses. They sound better than the bass of the session player we get in. A month or so ago I put a bass under a five minute piece we wrote, and then got the session player in. His part was WAY more interesting than what I came up with. More \'bass playerish\', and sat better with the rest of the instruments. He\'s a better bass player than me - that\'s all there is to it. His talent in that area is greater than mine because he\'s lived and breathed just bass for the last 30 years. I could recreate his part, but he\'s the one that came up with it first.

Machines will put some people out of work, but they will never put the really talented musicians on the dole.

How about we change this to a discussion about why everyone doesn\'t use library music tracks for their demos, corporate docos, TVCs, Broadcast production, and feature films? Library music is older than I am and I\'ve NEVER felt threatened by it. Many of those library tracks are recorded with REAL musicians and written by REAL composers. Isn\'t that several steps again above using sampled sounds and algorithmic composers?

I just don\'t think this is a serious issue unless you underrate the talent and experience aspects of music composition and performance.

[pendragon]

Thanks all for yer insights http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif Kasparov (chess world master) lost from Big Blue, a supercomputer wich now is already absolete.. how did the computer won? by calculating millions of moves against 1 from Kasparov, the result was he lost time after time.

What I\'m saying is, what if you put work by talents like Mozart/Bach/Bill Bruford/Rick Wakeman/Clapton etc.. etc.. in a computer and have the machine calculate 20 compostions in a second, all different all unique and beautiful, executed by the click on a button by a 4 year old child? .....

Catch my drift http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif it sucks.

-Video killed the Radio Star.
-Dj\'s killed the rockstar.
-100 Ghz computers kills all (with or
without talent)

The whole point of this topic is perhaps a little personal, since I found out it\'s very hard and difficult to convince an older person from about 55 about the fact also computer music needs to be done by inspiration, soft/loud playing etcetera.. They all reject this and choose for a noisy Marshall and a drum out of tempo, you know the real \"on stage\" stuff or in their terms the real deal (ask your father http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

Now, why should I make so much efforts to let it sound like the real deal with my computer? I can do it, I can play a solo on a sologuitar (on my keyboard) and the biggest purist will not hear the difference between the \"real thing\" or the thing I did on my keyboard..... but the difference is, when you sit on stage and play that guitar the audience says:\"mmmmmmmmmmm, I can do that\" (BS ofcourse) but them folks think sooooo easy about it.

Indeed there\'s a mastering skill needed, but I\'m against the further developments of crap software like Magix (you know instant music for non musical people, put a sample on a bar and it sounds good) with the nasty result they INDEED think they are good, they are making computer music ?!?? just like us but we on this board are lightyears more developed.

I\'m against such programs. They are harmless now, but what if they are 1000 better ... the hard working and practising musician like a trumpet, bass etc... player loses all respect.

Peace,
PDG

[This message has been edited by pendragon (edited 02-05-2002).]

[VladRox]

Hi Chadwick,
I go with you. There will be always human factor ahead. Who was first on the Earth?
PC or any living being? Almost more than 75% of my life I was considered as musician and myself too. All my talent and hard work just turned to make good living and take care of support my family. So where am I? Born in postcomunist country, getting 51, sitting in my privat \"studio\" basement\'s corner and tweek my noughty PC !! My heart is BIG BAND..
and having GStudio is pleasure to have everything on your demands. Money scares me but talent can NEVER be a bussines! People brought PC\'s alive so don\'t wary...There will be NO real Terminator.
I also touched a bit of painting. My teacher
alwas told me: Hey boy, talent makes artists, but hard work makes MASTERS !!! So let\'s perform the best as we can ...and back to work!!
Regards and good will to everyone of you
Vlad

[pendragon]

Amen http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif thanks for the knowledge.. I\'ll go with that.

[Kenn159]

I think we are talking about two differnt issues.

I assume that when your talking about the negative aspects of technology and music you are talking about giga studio , sinse we are on a giga studio form.
Ok for me and alot of people that use giga studio, its a issue of economics and space.
If I had the money and space for a full size grand piano ,I would be using a real one not giga piano.
But because of money and space limitations I play a sampled piano.
And Im playing the notes just like if it was a real piano.
so there would be no difference in musical ability expressed by me regardless of wether I used a real or sampled one.
Giga studio just offers me a wider range of timbers in my music.
Ok the other side of electronic music are loops and prerecorded sections which is I think what you are talking about, in my opinion a real musicain would not be caught dead with them on the final version of there masters.
I totally refuse to use prerecorded loops in my music[Only used the drum loops a couple times as a metronone, to be erased before finishing the song], if I did ,how could I call the music mine.
Legally if they are royalty free I could , but ethically I would not feel right.
I mean what could you say if someone ask you , is that your song?
The best you could say would be ,well I merged abunch of other peoples music together and this is what I came up with.
Thats not a musician, a producer but not a musician.
Thats why as a consumer of sample libraries ,I prefer that they have no prerecorded performances, just indivual samples with enough velocity zones, etc that I can express my self.
Just a opinion from my corner of the block.
Ken

[Maximus]

Some thoughts on this discussion...

I dont think you can denigrate technology when it comes to musical creation. An old cello is tool to make music; so is the sampled synth sound reproduction of that same instrument. They are just the means to an end.

Perhaps our technology will never recreate the plethora of nuances of orchestral instrument articulations (is this Gigastudio\'s Holy Grail?). But you have to wonder, if the great classical composers were alive today, would they be laboring in front of their piano keyboards and notating every pains-taking note by hand? Or would they be sampling with Gigastudio and Sonar?

I have quote somewhere from Aaron Copland in one of his books acknowledging that \"electronic\" music will eventaully affect the course of classical music. Are we now approaching this time?

Which is not to say one should ignore the techniques of orchestration and of musical theory when creating symphonic music. The legacy of what the masters have left us is too great they ignore.

If I listen to a CD or an MP3 of the most subtle ethereal moving classical music I have ever heard, it doesnt matter to me whether its was an orchestra conducted by Eugene Ormandy in the oldest concert hall in Prague using authentic 18th century instruments, or if it was created by Fred with his DAW inside his garage studio.

My 2 1/2 cents,

Max

[gigaDiga]

Pendragon (and other muso\'s who look down on the stupid masses) ought to be careful what you wish for.

If you really hope that people are prevented from finding enjoyment with music. If it\'s your desire to deprive people from the joy you feel when being creative. If you genuinely believe the masses should just be listening to your music and not trying to make their own... whether that be through spinning vinyl or pressing a button on their casio....

Well what a sad grey world you are wishing for.

Music has come to a cross roads and has split into two seperate ways...

There are the old reactionary muso\'s who listen to music not for how it sounds but because the musician playing it was very nifty with his/her fingers. These muso\'s genuinely can\'t hear how excellent some music is purely because the chap who made it hasn\'t been to music school. In short these people `look` at music rather than hearing it.

Technology, however, has ushered in a new front to music. An army of composers who haven\'t learnt how to read music nor pluck a string in some special way. They use only their ears. They shut their eyes and wait until they like the sound of what they are hearing. Their accidents of fortune are non repeatable partly because they lack the mastery in order to repeat them... so they record them and loop them instead. They sit there listening to some old fart warbling away on his saxaphone making yet another boring jazzy generic tune and, whilst the muso\'s scratch their chins and remark on the performers fine ability, these other composers get bored because the music sounds crap.

Technology has done the unthinkable... It has rendered the old muso\'s distant detatched from the inner world of sound and it has driven the young deep into the new imaginings of pure creativity unhindered by the instruments of old. And so the divide widens. The old pompous muso\'s who\'s skills tie them to instruments become obsessed by the instruments alone and fail to hear the strange new audio worlds which others are exploring without them. And the new sound composers look upon these saxaphones and violins as bad vehicles for sound creation, clunky encumberments inhibiting pure audio creativity.

The computer is todays squeeze box... poised to wipe out the old music and the old pompous snobbery of the muso\'s... and usher in a bloody great knee\'s up on behalf of the music loving masses. long live the party!

[Jamieh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><HR>And the new sound composers look upon these saxaphones and violins as bad vehicles for sound creation, clunky encumberments inhibiting pure audio creativity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are calling the music people pompous, yet you make comments like the above? Or are you just commenting for the \"new sound composers\" and not yourself?

People have been predicting the demise of \"traditional\" instruments to electronic instruments for decades now. It just isn\'t going to happen, at least any time soon. Most of the tranditional instruments have been altered and modified over hundreds of years to become the instruments they are today. Electronic instruments will be the same--there will be some (like synth keyboards) that become another common instrument in the composers arsenal of sounds. But they are not going to instantly replace hundreds of years of instrument development. Especially not yet, when no electronic instruments allow you the same level of expression that a traditional instrument does.

And woe is us if everyone stops learning how to read music beause it isn\'t important. One of the greatest joys of making music is that it isn\'t a solitary pursuit by one person sitting in a room. Music is created by a group of people, working together, reacting to each other, all providing something where the whole is greater than the sum of all parts. If the composer cannot read or write music, how is he to notate what he has written so that others may play it? If players cannot read music, how are they to play composers works?

Electronic instruments are here to stay, and I have no problem with them. But predicting the demise of traditional instruments or music notation is just silly.

BTW, I never went to music school.

[This message has been edited by Jamieh (edited 02-10-2002).]

[pendragon]

Jamieh, Logic Audio and other good sequencers do all the notation automatically and perfect, so if you can\'t write a single note on a bar, the compositions are done for you. Others who can read it can play it.

As for gigaDiga, he start his comment with aquising us \'muso\'s\' for \"looking down at the stupid masses\", however that never came to my mind in the first place.

I get the feeling gigaDiga is a cut, copy & paste hobbyist and ofcourse there\'s nothing wrong with that. I and many others just get irritated about the fact a lot of DJ\'s these days get the impression they are a producer or bring somekind of musical value to humanity, wich ofcourse is bs. It\'s nice to experiment and make loops etc.. etc.. however it doesn\'t make you something special or something. The current software have the nasty habit to give some people the \'jesus\' feeling and it\'s quite horrific if they score a hit while being a-musical like a lama.

Dancemusic is fun in the dancehall and for big parties. If you seriously listen to gabba/trance/hardhouse with a purists ear (like you do to Mozart/Bach/Pink Floyd etc..)and really are serious, you are ready for some councelling in my opinion. If there\'s one thing time-bound then it\'s disco and or modern dance stuff.

I agree though the most movements are in the modern music streams and not in the timeless stuff like Rock, Jazz, Classical ... these types of music are forever but not really evaluating any further in my opinion.
I think people may start composing instead of playing Beethoven / Bach etc... being hundreds of years out of date.

Etc.... Etc....

Let\'s start creating and end this please http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
I agree with all people except gigaDiga...

[Simon Ravn]

Pendragon. About the DJ thing. There are two kinds of DJ\'s: The traditional kind, who just shuffles records at a disco. Then there\'s the composer DJ. Who either makes his own stuff from scratch or remix older hits under \'DJ xxxxx\' name for example. This last portion of DJ\'s can be every bit as talented composers as someone doing classical/rock/jazz/whatever. It\'s just that their product is maybe 80% production, 20% composition. Traditional classical composing looks more like 100% composition, 0% production. Then there\'re people like me(and other MIDI orchestrators) where the figure might look like 50/50 (since you also tend to use a fair amount of time getting as much realism as possible out of your productions).

Whatever you do, if the final product is interesting in any way, I don\'t care if it\'s production or composition. Both of these fields require hard work, talent and skills. That\'s why I respect a good dance hit just about as much as a new John Williams score. I am not saying, like you are pointing out, that I will sit down and LISTEN to dancemusic, since it tends to be more suited for social activities than anything else. But thinking that doing a dancehit is done by pushing 3 buttons on your computer, is a totally wrong conception.

To me, the word ART is either a snobbish word without meaning, or it is a word you can apply to just about anything that man produces, if he/she had his/her heart and brain along for the process of creation.


[This message has been edited by Simon Ravn (edited 02-10-2002).]

[pendragon]

I totally agree, hitting the right string is as hard with dance productions as with traditional scoring.

You are right in everywich way.

The DJ\'s that produce 80% deserve respect as well.

No intentions at all to be offending. I gave it a lot of thoughts and every form of music (no raping of covers or mixing excisting productions) should be seen as art.

Once again, you are right.

Cheers,
PDG

[gigaDiga]

\"I get the feeling gigaDiga is a cut, copy & paste hobbyist\"

Now if that aint lookin down your nose at me then what is!!! You pompous twat you only say that because you feel you\'re safe in your company of other pompous twats.

Music has several functions (if you can give them such a term)... dance, trancendetalism, expression, listening pleasure/beauty, and bringing people together.

Your whole thred, and the back patters who have formed ranks behind you, stinks of elitism. Good music to you is stuff played on instruments and scored down so you can scratch your chin and theorise about it. The whole idea that the synth will become like a violin in future years is laughable. You really don\'t get it do you?! The synth has become just another interface with sound. Last years synth is this years computer keyboard.... next year we\'ll be fiddling around with 20 joysticks or something.... all with the aim of bringing pure expressivity out of sound, away from what is physically possible.

All this is probably frightening gobbldy gook for you guys locked up in your ivory towers. During the early twentieth century classical music tried to venture into pioneering new areas. Systems, modes, tones, sound canvas`, collages were all explored and presented as the music of the future. But in this strange topsy turvey world it was the visionaries (the punks, the rappers, and the partyheads) who took to this new future of music.... whereas the music establishment shut itself away in 19th century pastiche and quaint generic lift music.

So there you sit ignoring the innovation going on around you because it is `low art`... people like it too much and its got a beat. But really you actually don\'t understand it. You can\'t see that it\'s exploring rhythm in ways which loose you completely. You can\'t understand that it\'s exploring new psychological worlds of sound which you wouldn\'t even know where to begin with. You can\'t even grasp its most basic summise... that it talks to the heart and soul of who we are rather than just being interesting.

I sit listening to Mozart. It is beautiful. My friends appear and we put on some corking techno and we laugh and enjoy the music together. We turn on the tele for a minute. There are adverts with generic musician-made music. Well crafted but dull scores sounding just like the next generic advert/film music. It\'s all lift music to us. It sounds crap and we\'re bored. So we turn off the tele... it\'s either gonna be some nice rich Bach, lay back and enjoy how beautiful music can be.... or we might listen to some good electronica.

Music should be judged by how it sounds and not how it\'s made. I use my musical expertise to create something that sounds great... it seems, however, that you wouldn\'t even know where to begin... just carry on plucking those strings eh... and trying to simulate that dull lift music.

(strange cos `pendragon` apparently do wicked techno nights in London)

[KingIdiot]

I\'m not even giong to read through this whole thread


One point I\'d like to make tho is.

If I go to a party, and I pick up and acoustic guitar and start playing. People stop and listen. (ok yah I used to do it for the women, but) If someone hits play on a CD player or sequencer or something, people listen and dance or bob their head, or if its acoustic music it usually goes on in the background.

Even if music productions are more easly recorded/created. When it comes to someone who can play, People can become entranced. you stick a bunch of musicians together and people watch the \"vibe\". Peoples appreciation for people who can play music isn\'t being lost. More appreciation for different styles of music is growing thats all.

And dont get into the whole musician and moeny thing...good musicians get good live gigs and studio gigs will always be around, not to mention rehearsal gigs ... because \"vibe\" is still important to alot of people. While the amount of gigs may diminish, its the same as any industry. talent is talent, and buisness is buisness.

------------------
Really...I am an Idiot

[pendragon]

gigaDiga, nice words and nicely put.. what\'s your problem? I\'m from Holland, we have the best hardhouse/hardcore/trance producers here, I\'m also creating 4/5 3/4 minute dance productions daily in DDD quality, what\'s yer point mate?

You sound like someone in a wilderness of mirrors, don\'t be so upset, I don\'t look down on anybody on this planet and I\'m not an elite nor \'low-art\' hater, music comes from the heart and it makes no difference how it\'s made dude.

This thread is going nowhere if you keep pissing people off, my whole point was don\'t make the software to easy and accessible so the biggest tart can create art since we are then absolete as musicians.

[gigaDiga]

If you want people to not get in a huff and piss you off Pendragon you might want to think twice before slandering them in public and calling them `cut&paste` `hobbyists`.... do you see how that might piss someone off?

My initial reply still stands as completely valid. If you think that the world would be a better place if music making was kept away from the masses then you\'re seriously mistaken. I bet there\'s software out there that you wished you knew how to use... what about C programming ... don\'t you wish you could just programme up some special effect for your audio. Surely you wish that one day this technology will become more accessible and more intuitive for you to use.

To wish that software become more obtuse and difficult to learn is just stupid.

Your fear is unfounded... software might change but peoples ears wont. If a 5 year old can make a musical masterpiece at the press of a button then it will be hailed as a musical masterpiece.... that\'s because it will be a musical masterpiece. If, however, the press of a button only elicits yet another generic orchestral score then people will turn the sound down and go and brew a cuppa.

Reading Porterpe\'s thred above... it\'s bang on.


Re-reading your statemets \"instant music for non musical people...with the nasty result they INDEED think they are good... just like us but we on this board are lightyears more developed.\" Can you see how arrogant that comes across? I think you need a bit of personal `development` Pen matey... get a bit of that sour chip off yer shoulder.

[pendragon]

Alrighty http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif there always will be music. There will always be music that sucks and music that\'s good. It\'s up to our individual tastes in judging that, you talk firmly about \'lift music\' that\'s a sarcastic expression since a lot of us now understand what they are doing when trying to realize reality with expensive sample cd-roms, creating lift music that bores you and yer friends.

Can you write lyrics, music, judge about Jazz, vocal abilities etc.. gigaDiga? if you can\'t you can\'t not be seen as a musician, sorry.

Now let us judge your music by giving an url with your latest tracks, then we\'ll talk further if your comments about liftmusic etc.. are grounded.

[gigaDiga]

Seeing as you\'re being quite so bold and assertive in your presumption that I am some petty ignoramus I shall only state that I doubt your keyboard skills are up to my level, I doubt you can write lyrics as thoughtful as I can, and I doubt your grasp of song structure has barely gone beyond the stage mine was at 10 years back... in conclusion I doubt you lack the composing skills and vision required to go for this head to head you`re asking for. I have played advanced Jazz piano and also Jazz/Funk drumming for various bands both commercially and for fun.

My role models are Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, and Miles Davis... who each saw beyond the futility of their own `craft` and ventured beyond into new realms of experimentation, expressivity, and (in some cases) trancendentalism.


I can\'t read music... but that\'s only because I\'m the kind of person who makes you sick by sitting down and immediately creating something it takes you a week to make. I KNOW music (to use that cheesy `matrix` line) and it comes from inside me as naturally as if I were singing. I have made several long classical compositions for the piano, each of which have been printed out via a notation programme, and EVERYTHING I make is generated by me.... i.e. I\'ve never used a loop in my life... let alone cut&paste!

And now you\'d like a URL would you... just in the hope that you can slander me some more. I\'d be a fool to share with you the music which I make and which brings me such joy. Why should I have to prove myself? Your the one who seems to think you\'re so `developed`.... why don\'t you point me at one of your URL\'s? Lets see if I, the slimey little snail which I am in your eyes, can even understand the greatness of your highly evolved music.

I have nothing to prove to you. You are a worthless snob. I know my talents and I am confident of them. It seems your the one who\'s worried of being out done by some childish computer software... perhaps its your talents which should be brought into question here. Or should a little squit like me be questioning your godliness?

I can\'t believe I\'ve even risen to the bait and written this defence of myself but you are such an arrogant tosser I\'m gonna post it anyway.

[pendragon]

Wow!, I really feel sorry for this dude, looking at his replies I requested the moderator to close this topic because if I continue the man needs some serious councelling.

Listen gigaDiga, ofcourse you have better keyboardskills then me and your lyrics are better then those of Alanis or Fish or whoever. You are the best in the world http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

\"I can\'t read music...\" what exactly gave you the impression I care?

Please upload some of your masterpieces so us humble \"Downlooking\" muso\'s here can really tell you how good you are. You can copy and paste some breathtaking wonderous stories that are close to the edge here http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif
(Down by the corner http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif)

\"My role models are Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, and Miles Davis... who each saw beyond the futility of their own `craft` and ventured beyond into new realms of experimentation, expressivity, and (in some cases) trancendentalism.\"

Sorry gigaDiga, all reduced to liftmusic now.
BTW, as a technolover like you, it doesn\'t quite fit.. do you want compassion from the fellow orchestrators here with such big names as Davis etc..?


PS:
People here, it never was my intention to get this topic screwed up, but gigaDiga needed a reply that suits him, so maybe he goes away http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by pendragon (edited 02-11-2002).]

[Jamieh]

giga, if you are as fantastic as you say you are, then learning to read music should be pathetically easy for you. It is really remarkably simple.

[PeterRoos]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pendragon:
\"My role models are Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, and Miles Davis...

Sorry gigaDiga, all reduced to liftmusic now.


go wash you mouth, please. In this entire topic you\'re only making a lot of noise for the sake of making noise.

[gigaDiga]

Jamieh... I can read a bit of music, both percussive and note form, but I\'ve never really needed to get fluent at it as most of the gigs I do is improvisation based. I find that as long as I have a good grasp of the song structure I can kind of weave my way through it. Strangely enough I know every chord by name so I often use guitar music... tell me to play Eflat minor diminished and my hands\'ll plop straight on it whilst were playing. As you say... it\'s pretty easy but the real need has to be there http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/smile.gif

As for the tone of my previous post you should put it in the light of Pendragon\'s comments whereby he identified himself as `lightyears more developed` than people who make `instant music` through copying and pasting... and that he then whent on to accuse me of being a `copy&paste` `hobbyist`. It was clear at this point that Pendragon (a junior member who has only been posting for the last couple of months) was rather delerious with his own sense of self worth. From the very start he has jumped to the conclusion that I am full of crap and that my musical talent must amount to zero. This is what truly lies behind his desire to hear my music. He doesn\'t actually want to hear my music... he is merely making an assertion.... `if your not as crap as I think you are.... then prove it by playing us your music`.

I do not need to reply to that assertion as it is aggressive and rude. But Pendragon should be aware that there are others out there with greater talents than his who are making electronic music, hence my defensive and upset post. Pendragon will never know if what I have written is true... and indeed he has already been as presumptuous enough as to believe that I am lying.

As for the laughable comment on Coltrane being lift music... it is clear that Pendragon cannot differentiate between the work of a master and the kind of mindless generic jazzy pap which so many muso\'s put out. Even I understand that I am not even in the shadow of Coltrane... he was truly incredible. But Pendragon seems to think that I was accusing him AND Coltrane of producing lift music. But Pendragon hasn\'t posted any evidence that his music could put him on such a pedestal which he clearly thinks he\'s on. There is a gapping huge hole between Jamariquai and `Love Supreme`.

I posted to this thred because I found it\'s premise to be pompous (to desire that the general public stop getting joy from creating music themselves). But since then Pendragon has continually managed to offend me in various deeply arrogant ways. My responses have been as anyone would have if someone had accused them and their music of being a cheap trick.

As an old board member, and someone who has continually left helpful tips and tricks for people to advance their Giga learning, I think that the egotistical and arrogant Pendragon should be told to refrain from judging fellow internet users or he should be kindly asked to leave.


On an interesting side note, however, this whole thred has made me realise that I myself harbour my own snobbery. I have realised that the main reason why I can\'t stand generic jazzy stuff like Jamariquai is because it\'s precisely the kind of stuff I was doing when I was 15. Since then I have found it completely lacking in any challenge to my abilities. Rather than make a few jazzy numbers and then wade in my own self glory, I have chosen to push my skills into new areas. Whenever I hear the kind of Jamariquai crap I hate... the first thing that goes through my mind is `oh god he\'s not still stuck in that phase of making easy music is he?`. I guess this is my own snobbery.

A musician shouldn\'t become fat with the conceit that by mastering an instrument they have mastered music.

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/images/icons/wink.gif

[Simon Ravn]

Actually I kinda like Jamiroquai - King For a Day has some very nice James Bond-ish sounding strings too.