Question to synthetic ! (( re-iterated piano notes pedal down with giga 3)

[Olivier]

hi,

take a look at :

http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum24/HTML/001279.html

Does Gigastudio 3 will have the same function ? (for re-iterated piano notes pedal down)

Or a voice group function like Kontakt ?

it's important for Piano....

Regards,

Olivier

www.audiolivepro.com

[Olivier]

bump !!!!

i want an answer !!!

[GTBannah]

bump !!!!

i want an answer !!!

So noted! .... but, what's the magic word?

[kbaccki]

So noted! .... but, what's the magic word?

Now. :)

[Olivier]

bump !!!!

i want an answer !!!

now !

[Hardy Heern]

Oh Let me try! I think I know the answer to this one....Is it 'Please'?:)

Frank

[rkmusic]

Olivier maybe the best magic word is "patience" just now.
I suppose Synthetic to be very busy actually...
After the shining entrance of new GS3 in the arena there will be good times to see every things happening with the new possibilities. Sure.

Bonne soirée!

Un français à Madrid - Your french man in Spain.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

These features have been built into GigaStudio since Giga 2.0.

It's called "self mask" and it works on the individual sample level.

If you're overlapping the same note, as long as you are playing louder notes, the softer ones are released. If you start with loud notes, and overlap softer ones, the loud ones are allowed to ring through the softer ones.

This is actually quite a bit MORE sophisticated than H3, since H3 is just a simple "x number of notes are allowed to ring" setting. The GigaStudio method has the capability to allow more natural behavior, yet cut polyphony load to the bare minimum needed to sound musical.

Repedaling is handled by the GigaPulse engine.

No need to worry about GigaStudio needing to play catch-up here. This is one of many areas where GigaStudio has had better technology than its competitors continuously since day one.

Bruce

[rkmusic]

Olivier:

Indeed your work in patching piano samplers for the repedalling question is excellent! Your are maybe the most advanced in this field.
I mean that the "pedal" uses behavior in samplers are just to primitive (CC64 0-127). Great things can and will be done next in conjunction with sampled resonances and body convolution. With the help of people like you.
I told sometimes Worra about this. I would like to have my White Grand sounding with repedalling to!... Time to time.
Thanks

[Bruce A. Richardson]

ps...Synthetic is likely VERY busy right now. Everyone at Tascam/Nemesys is working combat hours, including Joe Bibbo, whose wife is due to give birth just about any time. People are sacrificing like mad to make GigaStudio 3.0 a killer release.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

the "pedal" uses behavior in samplers are just to primitive (CC64 0-127). Great things can and will be done next in conjunction with sampled resonances and body convolution.
Thanks
This is the problem, of course. Sustain behavior in samplers was inherited from synthesizers, and at the time the Sustain Pedal spec was conceived, no one had a clue about hard drive sampling. At that time, a hard drive was a thing about the size of a washing machine, with gigantic 16" plates.

The convolution "solution" is interesting because it can be somewhat behaviorally adapted. But the instrument modeling aspects of this are still very much more complex than even convolution can solve. When you really consider it, even more radical multisampling is never going to give you the same control you have over a well-made piano and a manual damper pedal. To date, some of the "solutions" have sounded worse to me than the original problem. Pianos don't radically open up the moment you repedal (as you all know as pianists), they are very subtle. Sutil. And subtle is one thing that sampling does horribly. So I believe that convolution and more advanced leveraging of physical modeling in conjunction with sampling will be the best solution anyone is going to reach.

[Olivier]

These features have been built into GigaStudio since Giga 2.0.

It's called "self mask" and it works on the individual sample level.

If you're overlapping the same note, as long as you are playing louder notes, the softer ones are released. If you start with loud notes, and overlap softer ones, the loud ones are allowed to ring through the softer ones.

This is actually quite a bit MORE sophisticated than H3, since H3 is just a simple "x number of notes are allowed to ring" setting. The GigaStudio method has the capability to allow more natural behavior, yet cut polyphony load to the bare minimum needed to sound musical.

Repedaling is handled by the GigaPulse engine.

No need to worry about GigaStudio needing to play catch-up here. This is one of many areas where GigaStudio has had better technology than its competitors continuously since day one.

Bruce


Hi Bruce,

You are my Hero !!!!!

i investigate about this "self mask"

can you tell more !!!!

you said :

This is one of many areas where GigaStudio has had better technology than its competitors continuously since day one.

I'm agree with you the "Piano release mode" in Gigastudio is a powerfull feature + GigaPulse engine + self-mask. (Kontakt can't do this - Halion -> i don't know)

Viva Gigastudio !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've to find a soluce to import my Galaxy Steinway into Gigastudio !!! I don't know if it's possible/legal.

I take a look for the price of Gigastudio 3 !!!!!


:)

(Mes plus vifs remerciements de France)

Regards

Olivier

[Olivier]

it's the answer form Halion forum : (moderator)

QUOTE]Originally posted by pinkcanary:

One thing I have noticed is that when a piano hammer restrikes the string the string does NOT keep resonating. It gets stifled by the felt hitting the string and the new note is heard. This is quite different from your assertion that a loud note will continue to ring through a soft note. That is simply, physically impossible.
What you WILL hear are sympathetic resonances in the soundboard and the other strings.
To infer that the Giga behaviour reproduces what a real piano does is, frankly, very misleading.

Peace too. :)

Pink[/QUOTE]

the link :

http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum24/HTML/001279.html

What do you yhink about this Bruce ?

Regards,

Olivier

[xav93]

it's the answer form Halion forum : (moderator)

Originally posted by pinkcanary:

One thing I have noticed is that when a piano hammer restrikes the string the string does NOT keep resonating. It gets stifled by the felt hitting the string and the new note is heard. This is quite different from your assertion that a loud note will continue to ring through a soft note. That is simply, physically impossible.
What you WILL hear are sympathetic resonances in the soundboard and the other strings.
To infer that the Giga behaviour reproduces what a real piano does is, frankly, very misleading.

Peace too.

Pink
the link :

http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum24/HTML/001279.html


It' why in kontakt (see my work on this at http://jazzphoton.free.fr ) i used a layer for pedal up notes i called "true string behavior", and a layer for pedal down called "sympathetic resonance"(among others). The pedal up layer is always played and has a true string behavior, and the pedal down layer is controlled by CC64, but would really benefit from the "piano release mode" and "self mask" from giga.

Xavier Bidault

[Bruce A. Richardson]

In this case, Pink Canary is simply wrong. He is very defensive of HAlion. Of course, hammer behavior affects the string on a re-strike. But the major point is that the Self-Mask behavior is far more complex--and congruent to the acoustic reality of a physical piano--than is a mere control to determine how many overlaps will play. The H3 control has no velocity-level intelligence, therefore completely lacks the behavioral component.

But, please....I would rather not be quoted on the Cubase forum. I don't have the time to debate this subject. I just wanted to let people here know that the feature existed and that they can use it for themselves to determine its value. It will speak for itself.

[Olivier]

But, please....I would rather not be quoted on the Cubase forum. I don't have the time to debate this subject. .

Sorry for this Bruce !

But you have to debate this subject, it's important to enlight users.

:)

Peace,

Olivier

[Houston Haynes]

A long time ago, a major sample developer explained the self-masking function of GigaStudio to me. He said that it would simply shut off lower velocity notes if a superceding (higher) velocity is played for that key. So, in effect, it is a key-based behavior, not sample-based.

Now that I've got a new seat for GS160, I looked it up for myself. To whit - from the Gig Editor Help file:
Self Masking

When checked, causes high velocity notes to cancel lower velocity voices that will be inaudible anyway because of masking. Because this conserves polyphony, it should be checked for all samples with percussive attacks (pianos, basses, guitars, drums, etc.)

While clever, I don't think it rises to the level of "elegant". It was designed to conserve polyphony, but also seems to present to attractive trade-offs when constructing certain sounds. HALion, Kontakt and GigaStudio all have their relative compromises. I think that the HALion solution makes more sense, at least for a single control - however, their Megatrig functions could likely supercede that for anyone that is willing to go deeper and achieve more realism. I would expect that GS3's iMIDI will allow the same level of intelligent gesture response.

But, until you have a sustain and sostenuto that act more like a continuous controller (as opposed to a simple on/off switch) AND have resonant body impulses with an "intellegent" layer of sympathetic triggering according to notes played and pedal position - your NEVER going to get a truly accurate piano sound -- only damned close. :D

[Olivier]

hi,

http://www.audiolivepro.com/Galaxy-Wagner.mp3


what kind of sampler ?

guess....


Regards,

Olivier

more information for the "Piano release mode"

1 )Here the midi to test :
http://www.audiolivepro.com/Test-midi-pedal-FX-during-note-release.mid



(midi from Xavier Bidault)

2) Here the real result that you shoul obtain
in a real piano that Gigastudio already reproduce :

http://www.audiolivepro.com/Gigastudio-PedalFXduringnoterelease.mp3


Here the settings inside Gigastudio to obtain the result:

in instrument properties


3) http://www.audiolivepro.com/Gigastudio-settings.gif

(Just one checkbox to check)

[sullivang]

It doesn't *always* stifle the note - it depends on exactly when the hammer strikes the string(s), in relation to the vibration of the string. Sometimes the strike can amplify the note, sometimes it can stifle it. Electric pianos such as the Rhodes and Wurlitzer exhibit this effect very strongly. (especially if the pads on a Rhodes are grooved from wear!!)

I find that Gigastudio 2.5's current behaviour does a good job, however reading other's posts, I'm probably not as fussy as some others here. ;)
Anyway, just about every digital piano or synth that I've played has sounded good in this regard - the simple technique of overlaying multiple voices sounds very natural and effective to my ears. I distantly recall Csound (an academic soft synth) *not* doing this, and I noticed it very quickly.

The next thing I'm waiting for is for some kind of crossfade from dry to pedal-down samples, for notes that are played with the pedal up, and then held while the pedal is then pressed. (yes, if this can be modelled instead, all the better)

Greg Sullivan.


it's the answer form Halion forum : (moderator)

QUOTE]Originally posted by pinkcanary:

One thing I have noticed is that when a piano hammer restrikes the string the string does NOT keep resonating. It gets stifled by the felt hitting the string and the new note is heard. This is quite different from your assertion that a loud note will continue to ring through a soft note. That is simply, physically impossible.
What you WILL hear are sympathetic resonances in the soundboard and the other strings.
To infer that the Giga behaviour reproduces what a real piano does is, frankly, very misleading.

Peace too. :)

Pink

the link :

http://forum.cubase.net/forum/Forum24/HTML/001279.html

What do you yhink about this Bruce ?

Regards,

Olivier[/QUOTE]

[sullivang]

FWIW, I can certainly hear that Kontakt's repeated notes (with pedalling) do build more than Gigastudio, but I'm still quite happy with Gigastudio's implementation - the effect is strong enough for me even with Gigastudio's voice masking. (and yes, the ability to control the number of overlapping voices in HALion is great - but I've not actually tried HALion yet)

I actually think the "deadening" effect that can occur with some electric pianos is a terrible fault - I fault I'm not at all interested in having reproduced. ;^) I just don't find the effect pleasing at all. I find it a total joy to be able to play sampled versions of electric pianos without this fault occurring - it's better than the real thing.

Greg.