Curious (illegal?) structure in a Gigainstrument

[gabriels]

Maybe one of the developers on this forum can help me understand a seemingly impossible structure in several instruments which came in a library I recently bought and which, in fairness to the developer, shall remain nameless until I resolve this issue.

I\'m trying to edit the library to be more useful to me and find the following problem dimension. The instrument has:

-- 3 bit dimension with \"layer\" as the assigned control source

-- 1 bit velocity split

-- stereo dimension


From what I can gather this shouldn\'t be possible. If I press the Stereo/Mono button I get a window allowing me to select Stereo or Mono, and Stereo is already selected. If I press OK, I get a message saying that I \"must reduce the layer count to no more than 4 layers\". There is no way for me to exit this window and maintain Stereo.

-- Everything\'s ok if I select mono.
-- Or I can reduce the layer count to 4
-- Or I can choose another control source, such as mod wheel (which is different, presumably because the dimension is now a \"switching\" rather than \"layering\" dimension and takes less resources.

I\'ve tried to understand the instrument by substituting my own samples for the ones in the instrument. My samples are merely spoken numbers... \"one\", \"two\", \"three\"... etc. etc. In this way I can hear what happens when I vary the controller settings and different samples become audible.

I am still not exactly sure what is happening with the assigned dimensions and control structure. There are null samples used to provide locations in the dimension matrix that don\'t add unwanted sounds. It\'s hard to explain, but I\'m sure you know what I mean. For some reason, in my \"substituted\" instrument, the places that had null samples seem to remain silent, even with my spoken samples, and even though I remove the 96db attenuation that the null samples originally have.

I\'ll continue probing these instruments and will have a better idea of what\'s happening (I think... though there\'s something happening here that may not be predictable).

I\'m hoping someone out there can help me understand how such a structure might have been created, and if I\'m just wrong about the \"illegality\" of these instruments. It would seem that the 32 splits are totally used up with

-- 2 bit layer dimension
-- stereo
-- 1 bit velocity dimension

This = 4x2x2 = 16. Somehow layering must take more dimensions, but I\'m not clear exactly on the number of splits layering takes vs switching.

Puzzled,
Gabriel

[Tom Hopkins]

Gabriel,

Contact the developers of the library and ask them about the structure of the instrument in question. I’m sure they’ll be willing to discuss such things with any registered owner. It’s highly unlikely that you are observing any “illegal” structures. For one thing, I’m unaware of any ways to circumvent the dimensional choices given by the Instrument Editor. It’s more likely that you are observing a workaround to sidestep a potential dimensional restriction or solve a particular problem. Go to the source.

Tom

[gabriels]

Tom,
Thanks for your input. Yes, of course the source would be the best place to ask, and I\'ve done so, but I think the guy is really a musician at heart, and is struggling to maintain some balance between supporting his library and playing music. I was able to contact him once, by phone, and he was congenial and knowledgeable (though he did say that he did not do the GS programming himself, but hired someone to take care of that aspect of the library due to the learning curve involved). I\'ve had no luck reaching him this time, and I\'m impatient to get on with my programming, so I thought I\'d ask here.
I had been wondering if there were some tools made available to developers that could have resulted in the strange structure, but you\'re saying no.
I\'m curious to hear your opinion about the particular question I had regarding the # of splits and stereo. When I start from scratch, I can create
2 bit layer
1 bit velocity
stereo

That IS the limit... right?
So how can I have an instrument with
3 bit layer
1 bit velocity
stereo.
Gabriel

[Bill]

> That IS the limit... right?

No, it\'s not.

Do this. Open GS Edit. Create a new blank gig. Create one new stereo region. Create on 3 bit dimension split.

You will find that you now have available a 1 bit layer (or anything else) split.

[Tom Hopkins]

Gabriel,

Bill is correct (as you’ve probably already confirmed by doing his little experiment). Keep in mind that you have a total of 5 bits to work with. Stereo takes up one of those bits, leaving you with 4 for everything else. Anytime you try to add anything that consumes bits, the Instrument Editor will let you know how many (if any) remain to be used.

Developers have the same dimensional limits in the Instrument Editor as consumers and, I think it’s safe to say, we both want more.

Tom

[gabriels]

Tom and Bill,
I understand what you\'re saying about the 5 bits. Just try this, however

create a new region
create a 3bit layer dimension Notice this is a layer dimension, not mod wheel .... that\'s what seems to be the killer.

now make a 1 bit velocity split
now try to change to stereo....
That\'s when you get the message to reduce the number of layers to 4 or less (2 bits or less).. and that\'s why I believe layer dimensions are treated differently than the other types of layers

Am I missing something, or were you just not trying to achieve the same structure that I\'m trying to make.
Gabriel

[gabriels]

Tom and Bill,
In fact, I can\'t even get past this:
1 make a stereo region
2 make a dimension ... ASSIGN LAYER AS THE CONTROL SOURCE

Now you only have the option of 2 bits... there is no way to get 3 bits for the layer dimension if you\'ve started with a stereo region.

I\'m not exactly sure what this implies. I would think that a bit is a bit, no matter how you use it, and 1 bit for stereo and 3 for layer still only makes 4.

Can you explain this somehow?
Gabriel

[Tom Hopkins]

Gabriel,

Now I think I see part of your problem anyway: you seem to want to create an instrument with 8 \"layers\" (3 bits). The maximum number of \"layers\" is 4. That\'s hard-wired into the structure. You\'ll see this clearly if you open the crossfade editing window by pressing the button in the lower right hand corner of the Mix/layer tab. Is that on the right track to figuring out your problem?

Tom

[gabriels]

Tom,
Of course!!! That\'s it!!!! You get only four layers. I knew this all along but didn\'t make the connection.

What\'s throwing me off is that my un-named library (and this is pretty annoying because it cost big bucks and I\'m spending so much time trying to unravel why it is uneditable) has precisely that structure in it.

There are gigs which, when you open them up, show a 3 bit dimension (8 splits) and the control source is layer. It\'s what I was trying to say from the beginning. I don\'t see how this could possibly have been created... I can\'t create it myself, and when I try to edit the gig... at least this aspect of it, it either crashes or doesn\'t allow me to change (for example to 4 layers). I can select 2 bits (4 layers) but the selection seems to be ignored. Eventually after I fool around enough, the editor tells me I\'ve done an illegal action and crashes.

I\'ll keep trying to contact the developer, and even feel a little as if I\'m betraying him though I haven\'t named him here. Basically, the sounds of the library are terrific, but the programming seems inadequate. Maybe it\'s just a bad CD. I\'m hoping there\'s a decent solution to this.

At any rate my email hasn\'t been answered, and I haven\'t been able to reach him by phone. I\'ll keep trying, and I thank you for your help.
Gabriel

[Bill]

It could be that this library is converted from another format.

Also, I\'m having trouble understanding what the urgency is about. What\'s the big deal?

[gabriels]

Bill,
You know, I think you may have hit the nail on the head. This is a library that was originally in AKAI and other formats before it was offered in Giga format. I\'m wondering if S-converter would have the ability to screw up as it produced gigainstruments. It does make sense.

As to my rush, well I guess I have to admit to a certain obsessive compulsiveness in my personality. I can sit for 10..12...14 hours at a time working on music related tasks. It might be soldering (I did that over years of creating my own woodwind controller), programming (I did that while creating the software for the above), tweaking (still doing that to make all the synths and effects devices in my rig respond as I want them to and create the kind of expressive space I desire without leaving strange places in the resulting sonic space where I\'ve been playing something that sounds like tremendously thunderous orchestra, and turning one knob on a controller changes it into the sound of a pennywhistle, and I\'m thrown out of my reverie and don\'t even know how to get back into my gorgeous symphony.

So you might think I\'d have the patience to let the problem in my library resolve itself at its own pace, but I somehow just can\'t.

First of all, I paid lots of money precisely to avoid as much programming as I could, and it really bites, that there are real bugs in the programming (if that\'s really the case).

Secondly, the purchase of GS and the library were to have been the FINAL step in many many years of building and fiddling and fussing. I was getting ready to get ready to start to think about approaching making music with my Frankenstein.

Thirdly: I WANT MY GIGA, AND I WANT IT NOW. I\'M REALLY ONLY TWO YEARS OLD IN MY HEART. GIVE ME LOVE... OR AT LEAST GIVE ME MY DREAM INSTRUMENT IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!

Thanks for reading this far. I\'m sure there must be other kindred souls on this forum, otherwise you\'d just get a three holed flute and go out into the forest and play some pure and simple music. This forum is for sound junkies, perfectionists, visionaries; a quirky bunch I must surmise. I feel at home here.
Gabriel

[Bill]

> there must be other kindred souls on this forum

Right on Brother!

So, tell us more about your Frankenstein... or is that Frankenstien...

[gabriels]

Bill,
I won\'t bore you with the obligatory list of excessive numbers of synths and effects devices, except for one detail. The interesting part of the stack is 4 Akai MB76\'s which serve to direct the outputs of the synths to the various effects and then collect the outputs of the effects and send them out to be eq\'d, crossed-over (cross-overed?), and amplified. MB76\'s are 7 in 6 out midi-controllable audio patch bays. Any input can be directed to any output at 32 levels of attenuation. You can take a snapshot of a complete routing and make a preset out of it. 31 possible presets. It\'s been invaluable in my tinkering... trying to figure out what should go where what should bet fed back to what, etc., and has let me create a well defined soundscape with various independent layers.

The brains of the \"Thing\" is a woodwind controller I have been toiling over for years... more years than I want to admit. I started out with a prototype of a controller that a small company had put a fair amount of effort into before calling it quits after learning about the Lyricon, which had just come onto the market. They gave me the prototype My part in the project was to tell them how i thought it should react to breath, bite, fingering etc. It was pre-midi, and therefore very responsive, but not being midi would have been a great disadvantage in the age of midi modules, so I learned enough electronics to redesign it, learned enough programming to make it respond to pots and switches the way I wanted to, and I was off and running into the insanity of infinite development and hyper-featurism.

At this point the controller itself is essentially a microprocessor and a bunch of switches, sensors, and pots (40 switches, including those for note fingering), 6 pots, breath, and bite sensors. This is mirrored by essentially the same setup, but in a foot-pedal unit with pots and switches only.

All info generated by these two units is fed into a PC running code written in C++. The code does the following:

1. Interprets fingering which is kind of a hybrid between flute and sax ... best of both, I\'d say. 10 octave range.
2. Interprets breath, bite, and other pots and does things - to be described.
3. Outputs midi to the excessive synths and effects devices.

In between (1 and 2) and 3 above it does a lot of thinking, allowing me to map gestures on the sensors and pots and switches to commands sent to the various targets (synths and effects). For any pot or sensor, I can draw a curve defining it\'s output throughout the range of it\'s input. This can be done independently for each target, so that one pot, as it goes through its range, can send increasing values to one target while it sends decreasing values to another, and any kind of complex progression of values to another target, etc etc. A pot can be linked to as many targets as I like.

I can define arpeggios by playing a pattern, which continues to repeat itself if I\'d like it to. The pattern can be convoluted, transposed, have different amplitudes impressed upon individual notes of the arpegg.

I can define chords by playing the notes successively, and then play melodies on top of the chords. The chords can be made to modulate by algorithms that can figure out where I want to go from where I\'ve been.

The instrument can send out program changes defined by ghost fingerings or by dialing em up on some of the pots.

I can set up trills of any inverval and transpose them. I can double notes at any interval and have them play in parallel or in chord tone manner.

Footpedals mostly control mixes of different synths or parameters for effects devices.

Any particular setup, meaning .. which controller sends what to which device, through which set of tables (the curves defining relationship of pots to output values), the program number sent to each synth or effect, etc etc, can be remembered and recalled.

Sigh... I used to actually play music. First classical flute, then sax. I played a lot. Then I wanted more sound. Lot\'s more. It\'s been engrossing, to say the least, but I may be in big trouble. I\'ve been away from playing for long stretches of time while I developed this instrument. There have been times inbetween when I thought the music I was making was all I wanted it to be... powerful, flexible, surreal, lyrically enticing. It happens when I play alone. When no-one is in the studio with me. It\'s been so long since I\'ve played in front of people that I strangle the music as it comes out if there are people around.

Now that the instrument is nearly complete... waiting for Gigastudio to give me the final polish... a nice big orchestra... I\'m going to have to just grin and bear it while I make a fool of myself over and over, until I can play again. I think I can... I think I can....
That\'s me....
Gabriel