problem in sonar with GPO

[Irish28]

Hi,

I don't understand something about the console in SONAR.
I have written a piece for brass ensemble and percussion, and I inserted 4 DXi (GPO).
So, I have several midi tracks (with all the midi events), and many DXi tracks with no events at all.

If I launch the console, I don't have any signal in the midi tracks (sounds normal to me), but I just have a signal in every second chanel of each DXi. I don't understand.
I would like to be able to change the level for each DXi track.
(Did I miss anything ???)

If anyone can help a newbie, thanks very much !

Alex

[billp]

Hi Alex,
I'll give this a shot. It's not clear from your post if you understand how to set up the DXi's voices to receive on separate midi channels and how to route the midi tracks to the GPO DXi instances. It's also not clear how much experience you have with SONAR. So I hope my post isn't too insultingly simple.

Setting up the GPO DXi:
If, for example, in DXi instance #1 you have a Trumpet in slot 1 and a French Horn in slot 2, make sure you assign each slot to receive on a separate midi channel in the player--1 and 2 in this case, for example. (unless you are creating ensembles--I'm trying to keep it simple here.)

Setting up the sending midi track:
The midi tracks drive the voices in the GPO instances. Make sure you assign the Trumpet midi track's OUTPUT to GPO DXi #1 and its CHANNEL to the midi channel that you've set up for the Trumpet inside the DXi #1--channel 1 in this example. Same for the French Horn midi track, except its channel should be 2.

Monitoring the DXi's:
When you inserted the GPO instances, an audio track was created for each one. The volume slider for DXi #1 will control the overall output of that DXi instance. Same for the other instances.

There are several other things you can do to improve the amount of control you have over each voice, including routing the DXi voices to separate player outputs and setting up separate audio tracks to control them. Also, by using submixes in SONAR.

C'est un grand sujet.

[Irish28]

Hi Bill, and thank you

Setting up the GPO DXi:
I haven't done anything in GPO about midi, I thought it was automatic.

Setting up the sending midi track:
That thing I knew, so for example, 1st slot of DXi1 = ch1 / 2nd slot of DXi1 = ch2 / 1st slot of DXi2 = ch1 (or ch9) ?

Monitoring the DXi's:
I understand what you mean. If I have trumpet and french horn in the same DXi, I can't set a different level for each of them. (is that what you mean ?).

What do you mean by routing the DXi voices ?
Do you mean that I should open a DXi for each instrument ?

Thank you for the light you gave to me.
And bravo for the french.

Alex

(I think I'll try to download some demos from garritan's site, sometimes you can download a sonar file. So I'll examine it).

[rwayland]

Hi,

I don't understand something about the console in SONAR.
I have written a piece for brass ensemble and percussion, and I inserted 4 DXi (GPO).
So, I have several midi tracks (with all the midi events), and many DXi tracks with no events at all.

If I launch the console, I don't have any signal in the midi tracks (sounds normal to me), but I just have a signal in every second chanel of each DXi. I don't understand.
I would like to be able to change the level for each DXi track.
(Did I miss anything ???)

If anyone can help a newbie, thanks very much !

Alex

Well, here is my solution. I find using GPO Studio as vst host a better method than DXi. I use Sonar 2.2. You didn't mention which version of Sonar your use, but I expect the basic method would be the same. So:

Before opening Sonar, open GPO Studio, load your instruments as suits your needs. You can then set various parameters independently for each slot.

Then you can go to Sonar. For OUT, select the appropriate GPO player, 1 - 8. The channel now refers to slot number of the GPO player that you have selected. So you can theoretically have 8 channels numbered 1 - one for each GPO player, and they will all be different.

In this way, you won't need to insert any audio channels until you are ready to record. You can add effects from Sonar, or from GPO Studio.

You might find the DXi suits your working habits. I did not. I can't say that one way is better, just that this works quite well for me. Most of my use of GPO has been pipe organ. I have just begun an orchestral work, and have some band pieces that I mean to convert to GPO some day, also one fantasy for orchestra to convert.

[dnortana]

The big advantage of using a DXi or VSTi plugin version of GPO, instead of Studio, is that within the host sequencer you can have very intimate control of the audio output of each and every GPO instrument that is playing. If you assign each GPO instrument's audio output to a unique audio track, that is.

Different reverb send level, for example, or add an EQ to trim off some unwanted frequency content, and so forth. You can develop a very sophisticated, highly controllable audio mix this way, while working with the instruments midi tracks, without the added bother of printing each track to audio separately.

Trond

[billp]

Hi Alex,

Good question from rwayland. Which version of SONAR. I'm on 3.1.1 PE.

Also agree with dnortana that VST/DXi approach gives you much more control inside SONAR.

You should definitely look at some SONAR GPO demos. I'd also suggest that you set up a projet très simple, starting with 1 midi track and one GPO instance with one instrument and get that working. Then add a second instrument, etc., then a second GPO instance...I guess this is my software engineering mind at work, but I think it's good to have a test bed to experiment with.

Here's a routing fundamental path. There are many other routing approaches that give you much more control over each instrument, effects, etc.

Midi Track 1
------------
Input: N/A
Output: GPO #1
Channel: 1

Kontakt Player #1
-----------------
Slot 1: Instrument of your choice
Midi In: 1
Output: 1/2

GPO #1 Audio Track
-------------------
Input: GPO #1 / Primary Out (same as 1/2)
Output: Master (I created this bus--see next)

Master Bus - created using "Insert Bus"
-----------
Output: Sound Card/Audio Device (EMU 1820 in my case)

Let us know how you do.

[Shazbot]

If I'm understanding you, Bill, having a seperate audio track for each GPO MIDI track would allow you to control the level of each instrument with a mixer fader in Sonar, whereas just recording as a MIDI track leaves the only possible volume changes with the Kontakt player or the controller modulation? In Cubasis, there are the MIDI and VST channel mixers, which make volume changes and mixing easier, and I was wondering how to accomplish the same essential thing in Sonar.

[gugliel]

Hi Alex,
I'm on 3.1.1 PE.

Also agree with dnortana that VST/DXi approach gives you much more control inside SONAR.


And another question: with this setup, can you record your midi into audio at computer time, faster than real time? Someone on the Cakewalk forums implied yes, which sounded VERY attractive since I have to wait long minutes everytime something needs to be recorded.

[mschiff]

Gugliel,

Yes, you can bounce a track much faster than real time from midi with GPO to an audio track. In fact, you can render the whole song to audio with dozens of GPO tracks in much less than real time.

-- Martin

[mschiff]

Alex,

The easiest way to set up Sonar with GPO is to open the synth rack and use it to create your instances of GPO. Click the View menu, and select synth rack. Click the Add button, and select GPO VST (it works better than the dxi in Sonar). It will ask what tracks you want to create. Check the box for first midi track and audio track, and it will automatically create the tracks with the correct routing. Then just record your midi part and you're good to go.

-- Martin

[Irish28]

Bill,

So I returned to Sonar and tried some things you told me.
I went back to my file.

I have trumpets, horns, trombones, tuba, and percussion.

DXi#1 = trumpets
DXi#2 = Horns
DXi#3 = Low Brass
Dxi#4 = Percussion

Am I right for the moment ?

the differents trumpets have ch1, ch2, ch3, etc ...
same for the horns : ch1, ch2, etc ... (in a different DXi, of course)
etc etc ...

Right or not ?

Then is my problem.
All above was in the midi track, right ?

Then I have 9 audio DXi tracks, created automatically by inserting those DXi(s).
I have a main one and 8 others.
WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO ???

Can I rename the 8 tracks by trumpet 1, trumpet 2, etc ...
and then, what output do i have to choose ?
I have a layla 24 from echo.
when I click on the track, I can see layla digital 1/2, layla digital 3/4, etc ...

DO I HAVE TO PUT ALL THE TRACKS ON THE SAME OUTPUT ?
My question seems to be weird for you all, but when I chose to put output 1/2 for the trumpets, 3/4 for the horns, etc ... I doesn't work, I can't hear all the tracks.

Thanks for all who can help me.

Alex

[billp]

If I'm understanding you, Bill, having a seperate audio track for each GPO MIDI track would allow you to control the level of each instrument with a mixer fader in Sonar, whereas just recording as a MIDI track leaves the only possible volume changes with the Kontakt player or the controller modulation? In Cubasis, there are the MIDI and VST channel mixers, which make volume changes and mixing easier, and I was wondering how to accomplish the same essential thing in Sonar.

Hi Shazbot,

The simple example I gave above really just addressed routing issues.

I put most of my effort into producing a good midi track. I try to develop each midi track so that its GPO voice (or voices) plays pretty much the the way I want when driven by the midi track, by applying volume changes, modulation changes, portamento, sustenato, etc. to the midi track. I've enabled the Kontakt player options for CC7/CC10 (volume and pan) so that I control these from the midi track also. I use the Kontakt player only to host the GPO voices.

How I route the outputs of the Kontakt player to the output audio tracks in SONAR depends on what I'm working with. Using separate audio tracks allows you to apply effects, such as limiter, eq, reverb, for example, discretely.

I've been using the audio track levels in a set-and-forget manner, managing the detailed control of instrument levels from the midi tracks as I described above.

I use the audio levels to make finer adjustments to the overall levels in the mix--oops, woodwinds overall a little to loud, bump the woodwind audio level down a notch. Piano sounds a bit muddy...apply a little eq to this track...you get the picture.

I've found that I can write a string quartet and route all of the tracks to a single audio track in SONAR and get a good result.

On the other hand, if I've got a piece with strings, piano, and woodwinds, at minimum, I put the piano, woodwinds, and string on separate audio tracks (so 3 tracks at minimum). Then, if I don't like the sound of the cellos, for example, I might split them out to their own audio track for "special" treatment.

I've lately been experimenting with applying a small amount of short reverb to each of the separate audio tracks as necessary to produce a more realistic liveness to each track. Then send these tracks to a separate bus, where I apply some big hall reverb to simulate the effect of playing these instruments in a large space. There's actually more to it than this, but it gets complex to write it here in the forum...but you can see that the routing possibilities are...what's a good word...exciting, I guess.

I have never used Cubasis so I can't really make a comparison. But you've probably used the Console in SONAR and know that all tracks, midi and audio, are available on the console.


I talking strictly midi-based music generation here, no live audio...and I'm saying too much already, so I'll just summarize by saying:

If I find that I'm having to do real-time audio fader gymnastics to produce a final mix, after all the detailed programming of the midi tracks, then I did something wrong on the midi tracks in the first place.

This is a real interesting topic, though, and maybe we should be sharing our SONAR templates with one another...let me think about how to do this.

More tomorrow. Bonsoir.

[Shazbot]

Thanks, Bill.

Yeah, I tried it last night with the audio tracks and it works terrific. :cool:

[mschiff]

Alex,

In order to make everything work in Sonar, you need the following. An audio track with GPO inserted as a dxi or VSTi instrument. Its output needs to be directed to the output of your Layla that is connected to your monitors. Insert whatever instruments you want in this GPO instrument. Play the keyboard in the dxi or vsti to make sure that you get sound. If you do not, adjust the modwheel and the volume control in GPO.

Then direct the output of a midi track to this dxi or vsti instrument. It will likely be labeled GPO1 or something like that. Set the channel for the track to the channel in the GPO instance that has the instrument you want played by the midi. Then play your midi. You should hear sound. If you do not, it is likely that you have not put in any mod wheel data, and the modwheel is at the bottom. Manually move it to the middle and see if you get any output. If you do, then you will need to record modwheel data for the track. To do that, arm the midi track for recording, and use the modwheel to vary the volume expressively as you would like it played back.

Hope this helps.

-- Martin

PS If you do it the way I suggested above with the synth rack, you don't have to worry about any of this stuff. It is automatically routed correctly.

[mschiff]

Alex,

Before you follow my above instructions and get totally confused ;) , please do the following.

Create a new project in Sonar. It does not need to have any tracks at all. Open the synth rack using the View menu pad. Click the add button on the left side. Add an instance of GPO VSTi. It will be under VST.

When asked what tracks to create, select First synth output (audio) and midi source track. Then double click the GPO object in the synth rack. Add an instrument to the first channel in the GPO player. Move the mod wheel to the middle, and adjust the volume control to 80% or so.

Then right click your midi track, select View, and Staff. Enter some notes on the staff, then play your project. You should hear the notes. If you do not, then your ouput from Sonar is not set correctly. Report back and we will help you with that.

-- Martin

[sfiks]

This (http://www.fallofautumn.com/GPO-Sonar-Tutorial.htm) is the best tutorial for GPO with Sonar I've ever read!

[Irish28]

Martin,

Merci, merci, merci as we say in France.
That was a great help, now it works !!!

last question : I started with a midifile I had done before, so I have already miditracks.
I inserted a DXi, and so I have a DXi track and a another miditrack. Can I delete this last one ? It seems to be no use for me.
Am I wrong or right ?

Thanks again for your tutorial, and keep it in a safe place, it might be useful for another one.

Alex

P.S : tomorrow, I'll try to post a link to one or two demos, hope you can tell me if your hear some mistakes.

[squoze]

Martin,
I inserted a DXi, and so I have a DXi track and a another miditrack.
You may have the "Create These Tracks: MIDI Source Track" checked in the "Insert DXi Synth Options" message box.
It doesn't need to be checked.
This is the box that comes up after you choose GPO VST from the synth rack.
Yes, you can delete it if it creates it.
(I'm pretty sure. I'm a newbie too.)

[Irish28]

Hi everybody,

So here is a link to my first work with GPO and sonar.

http://www.alexandrecarlin.com/oceans.mp3

It's quite special for those who don't know, in France, we have a certain brass ensemble called "Batterie-Fanfare", which composed of brass instruments without valves !!!
You can't use all notes to write music, because for example, the bugle can only play Bb, F, D, very difficult, no ?

So I wrote this piece last year for a writing contest for that kind of orchestra, and I won the first prize.
The problem was to write "easy" too, because, the purpose of that contest was to bring new music (not military anylonger) to small brass ensemble with pupils or adults with low level !

Well, all is said, and sorry for those who think that the work is bad, I just posted that link for all of you who helped me understanding sonar and GPO, so that you can tell me what to do to improve !

Don't hesitate to tell me what mistakes I did !!

Alex

[mschiff]

[QUOTE=Irish28]Martin, I inserted a DXi, and so I have a DXi track and a another miditrack. Can I delete this last one ? It seems to be no use for me.
Am I wrong or right ?
QUOTE]

Alex,

Yes, you can delete the extra track.

Glad you were able to get going with Sonar and GPO!

-- Martin

PS Nice piece. Did they record your piece with a live band when you won the contest? If so, how about posting it so we can compare?

[Irish28]

no, they didn't record the piece yet, and I must say that it is why I decided to make a demo with GPO.
Conductors need to hear the piece before they buy it, so I needed a demo.

Thanks again for your help.

Alex

[Irish28]

another file, second one with GPO, nearly same style as the other.
It was also written for a contest.

http://www.alexandrecarlin.com/galactix.mp3

thanks for your comments.

Alex