GOS Sound Quality

[delneroni]

Hi, I purchased the GOS package a couple of years ago and I use it with Gigastudio 160 version 2.54, Advanced Orchestra and Finale 2004 all running on Win XP Pro. My main concern at the moment is that I am not getting really good sound from the violins. Many people have commented that they still don't sound natural, that they sound "synthesized" or "electronic", yet in many of the demos I hear online they seem to be getting much better string sounds than I am with the same package.

I have a good sound system and pretty good sound card, but the strings, especially the violins, sound harsh and strident. I can't seem to get the real string sounds it seem others are getting.

Until now, sound quality did not matter so much to me, it was enough just to have the system to playback my compositions, but now I need to be able to produce finished audition pieces and would like some pointers on how to get the best sound quality from the system.

Also, I have received four update CD-ROMS for this package. I am astounded that Garry Garritan can mail these out for free, and I would gladly pay for the updates, but how can I tell if I have them all as I want to keep my system current.

Del Neroni

[cunningham]

I believe a number of complaints were related to the dryness of the samples. They sound much better with a bit of ambience and/or reverb added. If they still sound too bright for you, look at the "WARM" samples (and how to control them) and/or alter the sound with some EQ cuts in the frequency range that bothers you.

BillC

[gugliel]

Can you post a reference to some of your problem areas? I too struggle with making the violins -- and everything else, too -- realistic. And I use GOS with Gigastudio on xp (with Sonar as sequencer).

[danpowers]

You don't mention your background in Orchestration. A lot of people have problems getting sampled instruments to sound real because they haven't studied writing for real instruments. Could that be the case here?

[cunningham]

Dan brings up an excellent point. One needs to understand how to write for an instrument to make it sound real. Just because an instrument range is defined doesn't mean composers write for all the note positions with equal preference. Often very few notes are commonly used on a given instrument; and voicing the instruments within sections and sections within an orchestra frequently are restricted to a certain degree by common practice.

Separately, you may want to search for "sound stage" in the archives

Example:
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10797&highlight=sound+stage

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9317&highlight=sound+stage

BillC

[danpowers]

Another thing to consider: On another thread, you say that you are committed to Finale as your main sequencer. You really need to rethink this.

This is not a put-down of Finale. I've used it almost every day for 10 years or so and I would never consider switching to another notation program.

But that's the point; Finale is a notation program. I would never consider using it as a sequencer, at least not for serious work.

[Haydn]

You may want to do a search on the forum. There was a few posts and tips on EQ for the violins. I usually put an 8db cut in between 2.8 KHz to 3.4 KHz to get rid of the harshness.

[Per Lichtman]

You may want to do a search on the forum. There was a few posts and tips on EQ for the violins. I usually put an 8db cut in between 2.8 KHz to 3.4 KHz to get rid of the harshness.

I agree with this type of approach. The two best pieces of advice I can give are to spend time finding what frequencies to cut in the high end and spend lots of time writing and refining controller data. If the patches are mod wheel centric, than use that, but otherwise CC 11 works very well for volume shaping through the Expression controller.

[gugliel]

The A's on a violin range run from A=440 through A=880, A=1760, A=3520 and even A=7040 -- hard to see how a fixed eq can help with such a big range; that 2.8-3.4KHz will help with middle to high on-the-staff notes only, right? Does anyone adjust the eq settings depending on the note begin played?

http://mysite.verizon.net/guglielmo/eq_ex.gif

Guglielmo

[gugliel]

You may want to do a search on the forum. There was a few posts and tips on EQ for the violins.

Can't search on the two-letter-word "EQ"! Any guidance for how to search for previous discussions of this?

[Haydn]

The high frequency bump is more a factor of the room and the microphone positioning so this general EQ will work with all of the sections.

Check out this thread: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14147&highlight=frequency

[Per Lichtman]

The high frequency bump is more a factor of the room and the microphone positioning so this general EQ will work with all of the sections.

Check out this thread: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14147&highlight=frequency

Right. The first thing my mixing engineer will usually do when I bring an orchestral mix is to start rolling off some of the high end and emphasizing certain frequencies in order to give the feeling that the strings are a little farther away. Too much high end makes the strings feel like they are right in front of you and that's exactly how the strings were recorded.

[gugliel]

Thanks for the additional information and references. I'm continuing to experiment with the eq settings.

[sfiks]

The A's on a violin range run from A=440 through A=880, A=1760, A=3520 and even A=7040 -- hard to see how a fixed eq can help with such a big range; that 2.8-3.4KHz will help with middle to high on-the-staff notes only, right? Does anyone adjust the eq settings depending on the note begin played?

http://mysite.verizon.net/guglielmo/eq_ex.gif

Guglielmo
I thought it should start with A=220 (on G string)!
Then 440, 880, and 1760.
Am I mistaken? :confused:

[Theodor]

I tried making a small "mock up" tutorial for violin but it can be used for other sounds as well like Guitar , Oboe, and generally Pitch Bend oriented instruments :

1 ) First of all , apply some reverb to the general sound so all the attacks and pitch bends/controllers blend together better :

2 ) Velocity is one of the most important things when mocking up :

Velocity And Note Lengths (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/sevaliath-VelocityAndLength.JPG)

3 ) As you can see in the picture below, there is even some -really- small pitch bend with the value of some cents, that's the way i imagine it played . The legato ( 0 to another distant value ) as you can see has a little bit of extra data as well . Don't forget to ZERO your pitch wheel exactly at the start of the next note or else you will have a weird "bending click" :

Pitch Bend - For legato and Micro-Expressions (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/sevaliath-PitchBendControl.JPG)

4 ) Expression is the No1 important thing , i believe it's a small form of art to draw expression ( and controllers in general ) as you have to draw Exponential Curves or just Linear depending on the situation :

Expression - For dynamics and removing attack from some notes (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/sevaliath-ExpressionControl.JPG)

5 ) The final Result :

Violin Mock Mp3 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/journeyofsolsmusic.htm)

Sorry for the Sound Page , you will have to scroll to the bottom of the page to download the Mp3 .

( note : This is -not- a GPO Samples violin, it's just a small freeware one )

----------------------------------------

Part 2 :

6 ) You can also draw a very small detailed Bend/Vibrato for only one note and then use it at on all notes Via Copy Pasting that small "template" so it applies to all notes , that way you can even make your samples act like they are coming out of a synth ( Bend synchronised with Tempo ) :

Vibrato "Template" Image (http://server6.uploadit.org/files/sevaliath-VibratoTemplate.JPG)

Vibrato Template Mp3 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/journeyofsolsmusic.htm)

If you can use a violin with different samples for each note, like FF ,PP ,Spiccato ETC , your results will be astonishing :)

[Frederick]

Right. The first thing my mixing engineer will usually do when I bring an orchestral mix is to start rolling off some of the high end and emphasizing certain frequencies in order to give the feeling that the strings are a little farther away. Too much high end makes the strings feel like they are right in front of you and that's exactly how the strings were recorded.

Good point. Rolling off the highs gives the strings a darker sound and helps lend the illusion of being further back in the mix. I've heard that Jeremy Soule likes at do that, and also adds EQ to cellos.

With the advent of much better convolution reverbs coupled with the close soundstage provided by GOS I believe that more convincing mockups are possible. Many of the better midi mockup artists use a lot of cc#11 midi expression controller to achieve this as well - something that Finale simply cannot provide. That's not a knock against Finale - it is was it is: a great publishing program that also lets you hear a somewhat cheesy mockup of what you scored. For more realism you might want to look into Sonar or Cubase SX - using imported Finale mockups, you can ride the expression curves on the strings to get something closer to what sounds real.

[Scott Cairns]

Hi, a common EQ setting for GOS strings is to cut around 3 or more DB at 1350mHz and 2900mHz respectively.

This helps give a more "Hollywood" sound.

[gugliel]

I thought it should start with A=220 (on G string)!

sfiks, right you are! Even pulled out my tuning fork (though its a large C fork, not an A) and checked. No wonder I was having such trouble with matching eq settings to the notes.

[gugliel]

Scott, how wide should those cuts be?

[Per Lichtman]

Many of the better midi mockup artists use a lot of cc#11 midi expression controller to achieve this as well - something that Finale simply cannot provide. That's not a knock against Finale - it is was it is: a great publishing program that also lets you hear a somewhat cheesy mockup of what you scored.

Right. But at least in Noteworthy Composer, a notation app for the PC, you can enter multi-point CC data. You can't sculpt a curve in the exact way you could with the sequencers but you can still make a big difference. I would hope that finale has similar functionality but I honestly don't know.

[Scott Cairns]

Scott, how wide should those cuts be?
Hi Gugliel, I found the reference in my notes, it was from composer Simon Ravn;

"About EQ'ing I find that taking out a good chunk on violins and violas at both around 1350hz and 2900 hz (not too narrow a band), helps making the sound more 'Hollywood'.
I would take out between 6-12db at 1350 and the same at 2900hz. On 'Going In' I had an EQ setting takeing out 12db and 10db."

He doesnt specifically say how wide or narrow the Q should be, although it does seem fairly broad.

[gugliel]

Thanks much! More experimenting to come now.