Loud Brass. Minus clipping, Please.

[DZComposer]

Sorry if this sounds newbie-ish, but I am still learning how to use GPO effectively.

In some of my music, I like to bring the brass out a lot. Particularly the trombones and horns. This is often in a fortissimo section. But, I am running into clipping in the samples. I usually don't set my volumes louder than 64. I want to bring the brass above the other sounds, but not at the expense of losing the full orchestra fortissimo. I do this by bringing the mod wheel full (127) for the brass I want out. And I generally keep the others around 100. Sometimes the instrument clips on its own, and sometime is clips if like 2 other instruments are playing.

My soundcard is a Creative Audigy 2.

Now, I also don't use the overlays. I don't like the way they sound at all. I generally build sections of 2 to 4 instruments.

Is there another way I can get this effect without clipping? I would rather not volume down, but If I have to, is there a way to make up for it on post-production?

[Error]

I've never gotten any clipping with GPO without applying effects to the recorded track (for example, I had a section of all the french horns and trombones, with overlays, at nearly full mod wheel and velocity without clipping). That said, maybe I just work with low overall volumes or smaller full orchestras than you.

The first thing I would do is, assuming you're using Studio, move the volume of your brass higher. In my opinion, the default volume is very low, so it doesn't get really loud even if you put the mod wheel all the way up.

Also, are you making sure to raise the velocity for the notes you want to bring out? Velocity makes a huge difference in volume for some instruments, as well as getting the tone quality of a loud brass blast. You could also try putting a little bit of overlay at a low volume to get a bit more power without emphasizing that sound.

I'm pretty newbie-ish too, though, so someone else may have a better idea.

[Ron Klaren]

I don't know what software you're using, but why not just lower the Mastervolume?
You can allways compensate for it on the final mix, by normalising it.
(Or maybe.. just a teenyweeny compression... if I'm allowed to say that after last nights chat :D )

Ron

[DZComposer]

I use GPO Studio.

How would I normalize or compress? I have almost zero knowledge of WAV editing software.

[Skysaw]

I don't know what software you're using, but why not just lower the Mastervolume?

The clipping may actually be occurring within the instance of GPO itself. In this case, it's much better to raise the master volume, and lower the volume in each individual instrument to bring it back where it was.

[DZComposer]

Where is the Master Volume in GPO Studio?

[Ron Klaren]

The clipping may actually be occurring within the instance of GPO itself. In this case, it's much better to raise the master volume, and lower the volume in each individual instrument to bring it back where it was.
I used a full blown horn section (3xHorns 1&2 and 2 Overlays) on 1 midichannel and couldn't get the audio to clip inside the GPO vst itself.
I'm using GPO inside Cubase as a VSTi, perhaps that's the difference.

DZ: As I use GPO only in Cubase, I woudn't know how to adjust the mastervolume in your situation, sorry.

[DZComposer]

I can get clipping in the VST as well.

For instance, here is a 4 horn section in the stand-alone:

http://www.classicalhorn.com/clipping.mp3

Volume is set to MIDI 64.

Mod wheel starts at my estimate of MIDI 64. Then it goes to somewhre around 100. Then full.

It is a C major scale. Played marcato up and legato down, followed by a building C major chord.

No clipping first one.

second one starts clipping when the 5th of the chord enters.

Thrid one clips all over the place. Really bad in the chord.

[Haydn]

Be careful of controlling volume through MIDI. An instrument set at -6.0 db is about 60 with CC7 (Volume). If you are set at 65 you will get clipping. Horns and woodwinds are set even lower. Horns may only be at about 55 and woodwinds under 50.

I recommend making fine adjustments in the player to the volume and then control all expression with CC1 (modulation).

Strings are the loudest and probably shouldn't be set higher than -6.0 db in the player (60 - CC7 volume). Other instruments except the percussion and keyboards shouldn't be set higher than 60 either.

This should eliminate clipping.

[DZComposer]

*sigh* I guess I must turn the volumes down.

I guess I'll have to find out how to do these "Normalizing" and "Compressing" things... Any suggestions?

In a perfect world, clipping wouldn't even exsist...

[Ron Klaren]

DZ: What software do you use for writing music (Cubase, Finale, Sibelus etc.), the problem you have, can't be fixed with normalizing or compression.

MidiVolume is something you shouldn't use at all ! GPO is mixed perfectly, the only way to adjust the volume of individual sounds is by use of the modwheel.

Allthough the clipping you have shouldn't occur... i would be carefull in using 4 horns playing a chord while using them unisono cause when you reach the full chord, there are actually 20 (5x4) horns playing.

Better split the track up in 4 different staffs/tracks, let them all play the same piece till you are at the chord and let that be played with just the 4 horns (each horn just 1 note, not the full chord).

Maybe Tom or Gary have any ideas about the clipping ?

Perhaps you could send them an email or give them a call... they're very helpfull !

Good luck,

Ron

[Haydn]

You don't mention what program you're using. In Sonar I adjust the volume of the audio tracks to take the output just up to -0.1 db on the maximum peaks. Then normalizing is not needed.

[Skysaw]

MidiVolume is something you shouldn't use at all ! GPO is mixed perfectly, the only way to adjust the volume of individual sounds is by use of the modwheel.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using MIDI volume on the sounds, as long as they aren't set too high, as that can cause clipping. "Mixed perfectly" is completely subjective, and will depend on the circumstances of the piece in question. The modwheel is to shape the perceived playing level of the performer, not just volume.

[Ron Klaren]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using MIDI volume on the sounds, as long as they aren't set too high, as that can cause clipping. "Mixed perfectly" is completely subjective, and will depend on the circumstances of the piece in question. The modwheel is to shape the perceived playing level of the performer, not just volume.
Of course you can use Midivolume on the sounds, but why would you ?
The way GPO is mixed, the orchestra sounds pretty darn good right out of the box.

I can think up dozens of reasons why I would want to add extra punch to certain sections, but Midivolume won't help you there... better leave them at the default level and use the modwheel to shape dynamics (both volume & timbre). Then do the mixing using the Cubase mixer, this way you can add not only volume to for example the brass, but also shape it a little using EQ, maybe add some filtering, or whatever you want to achieve with the sounds...

I don't know if GPO is mixed perfectly compared to a real orchestra (to little experience with those ;)), but I can't imagine it wouldn't be. What I meant was, the way it's mixed, I can do anything I want with it... and NEVER get any clipping or other distortion. Also... GPO is meant to simulate a real orchestra, and as far as I know, it does a great job at this. Again, i don't have a lot of experience with real orchestra's, but I do know, I've never seen a volumeknob on a hornsection :D . In real life you use 'the modwheel' (hornsection blowing harder etc.) and all the soundshaping (if any) is done afterwards, in the edittingroom. So that's why I think you shouldn't use Midivolume.

Once again, I use Cubase, so I have no idea how things work on other platforms/software.

Ron