Conducting MIDI

[James W.G. Smith]

Ok, this is going to sound a bit weird but I am looking for a little MIDI program that will allow me to artificially conduct my scores. I write by hand because I do not have a MIDI controller, and just putting in random tempo changes doesn't really seem to work all that well. So if I could find a program like this (kinda like the "tap tempo" in SONAR but one that you could use WHILE the file is playing) it would probably give a more human quality to my stuff. Does anyone know of anything like this out there? Thanks,

James W.G. Smith

[It's times like this that I wish I had learned more computer programming in college]

[Ken-P]

Cubase can do that staff. Instead of swinging a batton, you play keyboard.

[Theodor]

If you are using Sonar or Cakewalk Pro Audio , you can go to View - Tempo and draw freehand exactly all the tempo changes you want, it really works wonders.

[Daryl]

I think that this would be a blind avenue for most people as it would depend on your ability to conduct, the computer's interpretation of your conducting and many other variables. I think that the tapping scenario sounds like a good compromise.

Daryl

[James W.G. Smith]

Well, the reason that I asked about this is because some guy listened to my music and said that it sounded "forced" and "mechanical" because it was too perfect or something (tempo-wise). So I went back into SONAR and basically put on a continually changing tempo, so, for example, if the tempo was 90 I would shift it between 85 and 95, about 256 times per measure. I also hand draw tempo shifts, such as ritards.

That helped a bit but I am wondering if there is something that would be a bit better than randomly shifting the tempo so that it's not so perfect. Does anyone else have this problem? Oh, and most of the time I also make sure that the instruments are not playing perfectly in sync, but again that is random. Is that a bad idea? I am just trying to steer clear of having stuff that sounds horribly fake.

If only I could play a keyboard worth a damn. Thanks,

James W.G. Smith

[lukpcn]

Well, the reason that I asked about this is because some guy listened to my music and said that it sounded "forced" and "mechanical" because it was too perfect or something (tempo-wise). So I went back into SONAR and basically put on a continually changing tempo, so, for example, if the tempo was 90 I would shift it between 85 and 95, about 256 times per measure. I also hand draw tempo shifts, such as ritards.

That helped a bit but I am wondering if there is something that would be a bit better than randomly shifting the tempo so that it's not so perfect. Does anyone else have this problem? Oh, and most of the time I also make sure that the instruments are not playing perfectly in sync, but again that is random. Is that a bad idea? I am just trying to steer clear of having stuff that sounds horribly fake.

If only I could play a keyboard worth a damn. Thanks,

James W.G. Smith

I always play with the translation of midi parameters like velocity and note position +/- on the for example violins and viola parts so they have random offset in posiotion and velocity.... it helps. Maybe you can try that also ?

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Well, the reason that I asked about this is because some guy listened to my music and said that it sounded "forced" and "mechanical" because it was too perfect or something (tempo-wise). So I went back into SONAR and basically put on a continually changing tempo, so, for example, if the tempo was 90 I would shift it between 85 and 95, about 256 times per measure. I also hand draw tempo shifts, such as ritards.

That helped a bit but I am wondering if there is something that would be a bit better than randomly shifting the tempo so that it's not so perfect. Does anyone else have this problem? Oh, and most of the time I also make sure that the instruments are not playing perfectly in sync, but again that is random. Is that a bad idea? I am just trying to steer clear of having stuff that sounds horribly fake.

If only I could play a keyboard worth a damn. Thanks,

James W.G. Smith

I cannot really play the keyboard very well, but I play it all in segments... so i'll play one bit, then record the next bit etc. Work out what you need to play, even if it is a couple of notes at a time, and perform it. I don't think you can make it sound "human" any better way. :D

[PaulR]

If only I could play a keyboard worth a damn. Thanks,

James W.G. Smith

James W.G. of Boise, Idaho,

This is interesting. Everyone, including myself, wishes they new more about computers and programing. Instead of worrying about all that, why not take keyboard lessons? Got to be a lot more fun than constantly looking at a computer screen. It doesn't take that long, and then you could do what James Mac( and myself actually) do, and play in each individual part in sections. Then you can mess around with editing, like tempo changes etc. if indeed it's necessary.

bests

PR

[LHall]

If you can play keyboard at least well enough to play a melody, do this. Play the melody or primary line or bass part, whatever part you can for each section, with as much feel as you can. Then go back and create a quarter note (or whatever works) click track that corresponds to your melody.

In Logic, you can then use that click track to create a tempo map for your song. I would imagine other programs have a similar function. This will put your melody on the bars/beats grid and away you do. You can always go back and edit the tempo map a bit if you need to.

Also, over-quantization can lead to a mechanical feel, even with a "human" tempo map. Make sure you use your ears, not your eyes, to get the parts down. For example, on the piano roll editor, my string parts are almost always a bit ahead of the beat to compensate for the attack of the sample. Some notes are way ahead, some are a bit behind. PLay your parts line by line a bit at a time until they feel good. If you do quantize, set the percentage to only 50-80 %.

Hope this helps.

[aplanchard]

Hey James, I am assuming you are on a PC and so Ken-P's suggestion of Cubase for this purpose is a good choice. Digital Performer (Mac only) allows you to "conduct" the performance as well either in real time or after recording (audio and/or midi) by depressing a controller (piano key, foot pedal, etc.) The results are outstanding.

[aplanchard]

For your situation, try the following:

1. Quantize everything at input
2. Humanize each line by slightly randomizing note placement, duration and velocity.
3. Now, use Cubase (Digital Performer or Logic? on a Mac) to "conduct the performance. I would suggest using a footpedal as your "baton" rather than a piano key, as the latter can be more difficult to control when the "note on" midi instruction is communicated.

Good luck.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Well, the reason that I asked about this is because some guy listened to my music and said that it sounded "forced" and "mechanical" because it was too perfect or something (tempo-wise). So I went back into SONAR and basically put on a continually changing tempo, so, for example, if the tempo was 90 I would shift it between 85 and 95, about 256 times per measure. I also hand draw tempo shifts, such as ritards.

That helped a bit but I am wondering if there is something that would be a bit better than randomly shifting the tempo so that it's not so perfect. Does anyone else have this problem? Oh, and most of the time I also make sure that the instruments are not playing perfectly in sync, but again that is random. Is that a bad idea? I am just trying to steer clear of having stuff that sounds horribly fake.

If only I could play a keyboard worth a damn. Thanks,

James W.G. Smith
I have pretty good conducting chops, and I tried an idea someone here posted. It worked great.

In the very beginning of conceiving a piece, once the structure is set, this person literally videotaped himself conducting as he hummed the music along. He then took the video track, put it in his sequencer, and tapped in the tempo track to his own conducting.

That said, I really don't think it's necessary to go that far. I wouldn't do it...I just thought it was a cool experiment to try having heard it discussed.

What I do is draw the tempo chart while I'm listening and "air conducting" along. Whenever I feel myself wanting to move the tempo, I stop and move it.

I don't think the randomizing technique you're describing is all that useful. A conductor may be somewhat random, beat to beat, but the size of an orchestral ensemble in and of itself will smooth that out in practice. I've found that the best way to avoid mechanical sounding work is to avoid quantizing as much as possible, and to play the parts musically on the way in--once you've actually established a living, breathing tempo map.

Once you've done a few good tempo maps, you start to see how certain musical phenomena tend to plot out graphically.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

The results are outstanding.

This is not me being Facetious ;) ... but I would be interested in hearing the results of this technique, as I'm a little skeptical. Any mp3s?

I still just think that the best way is to simply perform it on the keyboard, then add any other little dynamic's if required (lower/higher velocity curving etc), I don't really see how quantize should even be required. Each to their own of course. :D

[Daryl]

I have pretty good conducting chops, and I tried an idea someone here posted. It worked great.

In the very beginning of conceiving a piece, once the structure is set, this person literally videotaped himself conducting as he hummed the music along. He then took the video track, put it in his sequencer, and tapped in the tempo track to his own conducting.



I do something similar (although without videotaping) when preparing a clicktrack; if I can't conduct it and feel I'm making music, then I change it until I can. However, I am an expert conductor, having spent the large part of the last 15 years earning my living as such, and am not convinced that most people will produce a performance that is anything other than erratic if they attempt this. I'm sure that we have all experienced those concerts (sessions) where often quite eminent composers attempt to conduct their own music. Awful...

Daryl

[aplanchard]

This is not me being Facetious ;) ... but I would be interested in hearing the results of this technique, as I'm a little skeptical. Any mp3s?

I still just think that the best way is to simply perform it on the keyboard, then add any other little dynamic's if required (lower/higher velocity curving etc), I don't really see how quantize should even be required. Each to their own of course. :D

I agree with your assessment. Quantize is not required. In fact, I play each line (including Expression with the mod wheel) and then edit the parameters (note placement, velocity, durations, tempi, etc.) to get the desired result. My suggestion was based on an experiment I did last week to test the effectiveness of the "conducting" function in my sequencer (Digital Performer) and how musical one could make a performance that was mechanically generated. Unfortunately I nuked it after I finished, as it was more of a curiousity for my purposes, but I was amazed at the results should I ever need it. I am swamped this week and traveling but will try to recreate an example and send it to you.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

Many thanks,

James

[aplanchard]

I have pretty good conducting chops, and I tried an idea someone here posted. It worked great.

In the very beginning of conceiving a piece, once the structure is set, this person literally videotaped himself conducting as he hummed the music along. He then took the video track, put it in his sequencer, and tapped in the tempo track to his own conducting.

A variation that might be an interesting experiment is to record one's "singing" of the performance as suggested; remove the silence between attacks, and then extract a midi timing template.

[JonFairhurst]

I find that I get fast results by ignoring the MIDI grid and playing the click track manually with two notes on the keyboard (CLICK-click-click-click-CLICK-click-click-click...). I do this while simply playing the music in my head. I then record the other tracks playing live.

I find that the accelerations and delays that I play in with the click track are easier to play along with than a mechanical click.

The drawback is that without the grid aligned, post editing is tougher. This is best if you can get your performances right - even if it takes lots of takes and punch ins.

I recently got Sonar3. I need to find out how mold the tempo map to my click. That will be cool. My old version of Cakewalk didn't have that feature, so I just freewheeled it.

-JF

[Styxx]

Hi,
I was skimming the forum topics and saw this interesting one here on Conducting Midi. It brought to mind what I had read on MTI website under their Theatrical Resource link and copied this interesting statement,
What sets OrchEXTRA® apart from other music enhancement systems is its extraordinary ability to follow a conductor’s fluctuating tempo as well as its ability to handle subtle musical expression.
Having rented musicals from MTI in the past, I have never had the reason to use this feature. I am just wondering how this is made possible and if it could be integrated into other midi software.
www.mtishows.com

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I do something similar (although without videotaping) when preparing a clicktrack; if I can't conduct it and feel I'm making music, then I change it until I can. However, I am an expert conductor, having spent the large part of the last 15 years earning my living as such, and am not convinced that most people will produce a performance that is anything other than erratic if they attempt this. I'm sure that we have all experienced those concerts (sessions) where often quite eminent composers attempt to conduct their own music. Awful...

Daryl
Yes, indeed. I was watching a recording session with a composer who shall remain unnamed, and I was truly amazed that the players could hang with it. He had no conducting skill whatsoever, and appeared to not even know the basics. He was just flapping along. The players were predictably buried in the stands and trying to avoid looking as much as possible. One of those "in spite of" situations.

What you're describing is how I do it. It's a give and take. I do some work with the tempo track, then I try to conduct along. When I find myself "leading" and the music not following my instinct, I go in and keep adjusting until the sequence feels approximately right.

[Daryl]

Yes, indeed. I was watching a recording session with a composer who shall remain unnamed, and I was truly amazed that the players could hang with it. He had no conducting skill whatsoever, and appeared to not even know the basics. He was just flapping along. The players were predictably buried in the stands and trying to avoid looking as much as possible. One of those "in spite of" situations.

What you're describing is how I do it. It's a give and take. I do some work with the tempo track, then I try to conduct along. When I find myself "leading" and the music not following my instinct, I go in and keep adjusting until the sequence feels approximately right.

Oh go on, who was it?

[JonFairhurst]

For an interesting tempo situation, listen to Money by Pink Floyd. The solo section in the middle of the song is faster than the verses and chorus. I didn't consciously note that until ripping it into a DAW.

They should have hired a better conductor. ;)

-JF

[PaulR]

For an interesting tempo situation, listen to Money by Pink Floyd. The solo section in the middle of the song is faster than the verses and chorus. I didn't consciously note that until ripping it into a DAW.

They should have hired a better conductor. ;)

-JF

Even more interesting is Atom Heart Mother. Temps absolutely all over the place on that one.

[James W.G. Smith]

Thanks for all the input!

Well, I can play the keyboard, but I am SURE alot of people write things that they simply can't play (like piano parts that are REALLY complicated and such), and that is why I was looking for something to make it sound more real. The idea of trying to conduct along and then mold the tempo to fit what you are doing is a great idea! I also find it alot more relaxing to actually just write by hand then trying come up with stuff on the keyboard, which is why I don't do that. I am looking to find a nice MIDI controller though that is not to expensive ($300-$500 range, I'm poor). Doesn't need alot of fansy stuff on it, any recommendations? I think that I did over react to that one guy though, because while he had plenty to say about how "mechanical" it sounded he didn't even mention whether or not the actual music was any good, and I really believe that the music is the most important part.

James W.G. Smith

[kitekrazy]

Has anyone ever tried using the mod wheel or other controller for tempo? Does midi work that way?

[kid-surf]

You sure you're not referring to me James (KID- aka "Jay")? ;)

I really don't remember what I said about your music, so maybe it was someone else? I think i said that I liked the music more than the mixes? Can't remember?

Anyway...


A Studio Logic SL-990 keyboard is like $399 I think... but it doesn't have faders or pots. That's the cheapest 88 key I found.

I still think "at the end of the day" that the easiest / fastest way to get that emotion/feel is to just play it in. You could always write it, then play it in... Get the controller and you'll just figure it out (playing that is). I play piano stuff and I'm a friggn guitarist, I suck at piano --- but you can't "program in" the same type of feel cuz you wont be "hearing" it. You react to what you hear as you play, that's what creates the "live" feel (that and plenty of tweaks ;) )



KID-

[Jamesmcwilliams]

I still think "at the end of the day" that the easiest / fastest way to get that emotion/feel is to just play it in. You could always write it, then play it in... Get the controller and you'll just figure it out (playing that is). I play piano stuff and I'm a friggn guitarist, I suck at piano --- but you can't "program in" the same type of feel cuz you wont be "hearing" it. You react to what you hear as you play, that's what creates the "live" feel (that and plenty of tweaks ;) )

KID-
Exactly! :D
You won't regret it. Doing that will make a world of difference, you aren't going to find a 'computer' performer that can do it for you. I play piano stuff all the time... and i'm not even a guitarist, or anything for that matter! :D

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Somehow I missed the fact that James wasn't using a controller.

Yes, by all means, get a MIDI controller in there. Then you're recording a performance instead of needing to endlessly abstract one. It's that dancing about architecture thing. The way to get a performance is to perform.

[James W.G. Smith]

Nah kid, it wasn't you. You have always had very positive things to say, and great advice to give. This guy ins't even a composer so I think that it was partially the fact that he just doesn't like mock-ups or something. I have been bashed quite a few times for using samples and I really can't understand why. There are too many closed minded people out there.

James W.G. Smith

Oh, and kid, update me when you have some new music up, I loved the last ones that you sent! And I am starting to mess with convolution so that everything doesn't sound so in-your-face.

[Jamesmcwilliams]

I have been bashed quite a few times for using samples and I really can't understand why. There are too many closed minded people out there.


I think that stems from the fact that a lot of people associate the word sample, not with composing, but with DJ's and mixing... they probably have stuck a demo of dance Ejay on at somepoint ;) . I always say synth, or midi.

I composed some music for a local theatre project, and I regret now that in the programme, it said that I the music was synthetic. I got a review in a local paper from some guy saying how the music was more suited to doctor-who than shakespeare... the thing was, it sounded nothing like doctor-who, but I think he didn't like the fact that it was synths (though I bet he would not have known that if he wasn't told).

That said though... you would be amazed at how many people who, when coming into the art studio I used to work at, would say things like "so, do you have a computer programme that you press a button and it draws pictures?" :( Muppets.

James.