Notation Problems: Finale/Sibelius Solutions?

[imagegod]

I've asked a question similar to this before in relation to Overture SE so you can disregared if you've tried to help me with that.

To wit: If Overture doesn't fit my needs (and at the moment it doesn't seem to), I'll be looking to purchase either Finale 2005 or Sibelius 3. I'm not a musician, per se, but rather a musical artist with little or no technical/scholastic training. One question: will either program allow me to input/playback music without regard to time signature? That is, I don't want to be forced to count beats per measure...I just want to be able to put musical notes into an arbitrarily sized measure (that is, as big/small as I want) and for the software to play it back as written at the right tempo. Now I know it's possible...SmartScore will do it. (SmartScore is a notation/sequencer/scanner program that some Finale users may be familiar with. I'd rather not use this because I would prefer to learn a program with a larger consumer base.)

Is this possible for Finale/Sibelius?

Thanks!

[Jeff Turner]

As far as I know in Finale you do need a time signature. You can hide it. You can hide barlines to make it appear that a series of measures are actually a single measure. But you do need to define a time signature. The largest time signature that I just entered was 100/1. That's one hundred whole notes per measure.

But you can actually make a composite time signature of:
100/1 + 100/1 + 100/1 + 100/1 + 100/1

That would give you 500 whole notes in a single measure. You could tell finale not to display a time signature and this might be what you're looking for.

Hope that's not too confusing.
Jeff

[imagegod]

...you can actually make a composite time signature of:
100/1 + 100/1 + 100/1 + 100/1 + 100/1

That would give you 500 whole notes in a single measure. You could tell finale not to display a time signature and this might be what you're looking for.

Hope that's not too confusing.
Jeff

Assuming its accurate, it's not only clear as a bell, but nearly as welcome. But let me make sure I understand: From what you're saying, I can create a template in Finale that would let me write music that adds up to 500 whole notes in any given measure. And then my next measure can contain up to 500 whole notes...ad infinitum?

Just to add a bit of a monkey wrench, when I tried (and failed) to do this in Overture SE, (setting the initial time signature to 99/1) according Geniesoft I can't do this is because Quote: There is a mathematical limitation. Using a whole note you can only get 17 beats. (per measure)."

Just making sure this limitation doesn't exist in Finale.

Thanks for your help!

[LFO]

imagegod,
Sibelius 3 has a feature called Free Rhythm that allows you to (quoting from the manual) "input the music in one long bar or in several shorter bars with invisible barlines." ..."Music in free rhythm means that there ar eno time signatures (as in recitative, some avant garde music, or plainchant), or else the current time signature is ignored (as in a cadenza). Sometimes several instruments can play free rhythms at different speeds so that the notes don't even line up, as in aleatory music.

Does this fit what you are looking for?

-Kevin

[rwayland]

imagegod,
Sibelius 3 has a feature called Free Rhythm that allows you to (quoting from the manual) "input the music in one long bar or in several shorter bars with invisible barlines." ..."Music in free rhythm means that there ar eno time signatures (as in recitative, some avant garde music, or plainchant), or else the current time signature is ignored (as in a cadenza). Sometimes several instruments can play free rhythms at different speeds so that the notes don't even line up, as in aleatory music.

Does this fit what you are looking for?

-Kevin

Well, it sure is what I have been looking for. I knew it could be done in Sibelius, but had forgotten how. The last time I tried such a thing, it was using SCORE. Well, now I can haul out my song based on my translation of an 13th century German poem. Thanks, Kevin!

[imagegod]

imagegod,
Sibelius 3 has a feature called Free Rhythm that allows you to (quoting from the manual) "input the music in one long bar or in several shorter bars with invisible barlines." ..."Music in free rhythm means that there ar eno time signatures (as in recitative, some avant garde music, or plainchant), or else the current time signature is ignored (as in a cadenza). Sometimes several instruments can play free rhythms at different speeds so that the notes don't even line up, as in aleatory music.

Does this fit what you are looking for?

-Kevin

It sounds like it very well may be...could you let me know how playback is employed without a time signature? Does it simply use a 'Beats per Minute' function, like a sequencer?

Any help defining this function would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[LFO]

Glad to hear it was helpful, rwayland. :)

Image,
As far as I can tell, you set a tempo and go. I'd recommend you download the demo and verify that it meets your needs. I've never had occasion to use free rhythm, so my insight is pretty limited. Good luck!

-Kevin

[imagegod]

Thanks all...your help is impressive and most welcome.

By the way, I finally got SmartScore to work with GPO Studio, so I'm finally making music.

To all those who have helped with the various and sundry problems I've had to this point...muchas gracias!

And to those who will help with all the various and sundry problems I know I'm going to have in the future...many thanks in advance!!

[LFO]

Imagegod,
Here is the text from the help file:

Free rhythm

Music in free rhythm means that there are no time signatures (as in recitative, some avant garde music, or plainchant), or else the current time signature is ignored (as in a cadenza). Sometimes several instruments can play free rhythms at different speeds so that the notes don’t even line up, as in aleatory music.

Normal free rhythm

For free rhythm in just one instrument, or in several where the rhythms align, create irregular bars of appropriate lengths (choose Create > Bar > Other, shortcut Alt+B or Opt-B) into which to put the music.

Depending on the type of music, you can input the music in one long bar or in several shorter bars with invisible barlines. The latter has the advantage that the music can split at any of the invisible barlines, which will be required for a long cadenza that wouldn’t fit on one system. The downside is that the extra bars will upset the bar numbering, though you can correct this by putting an appropriate bar number change at the end (see Bar numbers).

Further information

For more details on notating cadenzas, recitatives, music using multiple simultaneous time signatures and so on, consult the Free rhythm topic in your User Guide.

-Kevin

[imagegod]

Wow! So helpful. This is very much appreciated!

Thanks again.

[astrt4]

Neither Sibelius or Finale has an automatic function for doing this. In both programs you're at least to a certain extent going to want to define the time signatures and hide them.

In Sibelius you can use the irregular bar feature that was previously mentioned. You would count the number of beats you planned to use in a given measure (or on a given line) and then input this into the irregular bar definition box.

In Finale you would define a time signature that would generally be large enough to accommodate a line of music, and then once you have input all the notes you want on each line, you would highlight everything with the Measure tool, double click, and tell it to spread the notes out evenly in each measure (one measure per line, so it would spread them out evenly across the line). Alternatively, you could have multiple measures per line and change the time signature as you are entering to be approximately what you want for each measure. Make sure to use the shortcuts for this (alt+t 7 for 7/4, alt+t 5 for 5/4, etc.).

If you want notes spaced out evenly and the duration of the notes is going to usually appear the same, then the space out evenly command in Finale will be the best bet. If you are entering notes that need to space differently from one another based upon duration, then in either program you really are going to have to customize the time signatures (via irregular bar in Sibelius) on a measure by measure or line by line basis. Both programs are pretty quick at changing time signatures, although Finale has the edge since it always takes only two key presses and you can program as many time signature shortcuts as you need.

[imagegod]

Thanks so much for the reply. Truth be told, none of what you said makes much sense to me...I have neurological deficits and my ability to conform my musical vision to any kind of time signature restriction is practically nil. I use a small, little known notation/sequencer program called 'SmartScore' that lets me put in musical notes without locking it to time signature. If either program (or Overture) offered such a feature, I'd buy one of them in a second.

Sadly, none of them do.

Thanks.

[astrt4]

Thanks so much for the reply. Truth be told, none of what you said makes much sense to me...I have neurological deficits and my ability to conform my musical vision to any kind of time signature restriction is practically nil. I use a small, little known notation/sequencer program called 'SmartScore' that lets me put in musical notes without locking it to time signature. If either program (or Overture) offered such a feature, I'd buy one of them in a second.

Sadly, none of them do.

Thanks.

If you do get around to trying the demo of Finale, try this. Speedy Entry tool, go to the Speedy menu, turn off "Check for Extra Notes." Staff Tool, double click the first measure, turn off time signatures and barlines. Now just enter the notes in Speedy Entry.

Once you enter enough notes for Finale to jump to its own next measure, it will jump. But if you enter too many beats for the measure, it won't complain.

The biggest limitation I see here is that the playback won't necessarily be correct. But I think it should basically feel like you're entering in free rhythm and the look should be about what you'd expect.

[Jeff Turner]

imagegod,

I've been curious as to why you want to work in a notation program. Since they're principal concern is printed notation, I think they'll always be governed by the limitations of music notation. Why not work in just a sequencer? Set your tempo and go. You can compose in a strictly linear fashion without even think about barlines at all. If you need a finished piece of notation when you're done, you can always create that out of your midi file.

Jeff

[Joseph Burrell]

I hope I'm not out of line by saying this, but Image is autistic and is highly visually inspired, thus he'd like to make his music by visual means. It is not very visually inspriring looking at notes on a piano roll, but it is very easy to look at notes on a staff. I believe that is why Image would rather find a solution within a notation program.

[Jeff Turner]

Thanks JB, that makes sense. Imagegod, since SmartScore does what you want, but apparantly isn't ideal for playing back GPO files, Finale has the ability to import Smart Score files. I've never tried it and I don't know how Finale would interpret the unlock time signature function, but if you want, you can send me a Smart Score file and I'll open it and try to play it back thru Finale & GPO Studio. If that combination works, that might solve your problem.

Jeff

[imagegod]

Thanks Mr. Burrell...you're not the least bit out of line and your understanding is note-perfect (so to speak!). That's precisely the reason I let people know about my deficit...it's much easier for 'strangers' (although you've become less and less of one) to help me if they know that about me, especially with music. By the way, regarding that 'visually inspired' part: I see music visually. Not like 'synesthetics' who 'hear' color or 'taste' music: rather I 'see' the virtual structure of music; not as a purely visual/hallucinogenic images, but as virtual spans of beautiful structure...see Beethoven's 9th/5th. (It's hard to explain.)

Astrt4: Thanks, all suggestion heartily welcomed!

Mr. Turner:

I most definitely appreciate your offer. With all these good words about Finale, I probably will download the demo and send you a file if I find it's needed and/or appropriate.

Thanks all!

[rwayland]

I've asked a question similar to this before in relation to Overture SE so you can disregared if you've tried to help me with that.

To wit: If Overture doesn't fit my needs (and at the moment it doesn't seem to), I'll be looking to purchase either Finale 2005 or Sibelius 3. I'm not a musician, per se, but rather a musical artist with little or no technical/scholastic training. One question: will either program allow me to input/playback music without regard to time signature? That is, I don't want to be forced to count beats per measure...I just want to be able to put musical notes into an arbitrarily sized measure (that is, as big/small as I want) and for the software to play it back as written at the right tempo. Now I know it's possible...SmartScore will do it. (SmartScore is a notation/sequencer/scanner program that some Finale users may be familiar with. I'd rather not use this because I would prefer to learn a program with a larger consumer base.)

Is this possible for Finale/Sibelius?

Thanks!


Well, if you don't care about the appearance and legibility, with a sequencer such as Sonar, you could use the default time signature, start the recording, then begin playing. The result may look like it belongs in a pile behind the barn, but the playback will be reasonable. Also, with Sonar, you could enter the notes in step time, ignore the meter, select the note value you want, and Sonar (or other sequencer) will tie the notes across the bar line as necessary to get the note length as you want it. A similar approach is possible using Sibelius. Just select flexitime input, start playing, and there it is, ugly as you could wish, but if your only concern is sound and not appearance, who care? Probably Cakewalk Home Studio works the same; I have forgotten. I have looked at many a midi file that looked like gibberish, but played well.

You may have to adjust tempo, but I don't think so, because if you save your work without changing parameters, you will play back at the input tempo.

I am thinking that Overture SE might do the job also. But the last time I used it, it crashed my system! Maybe I will re-install, and try again.

This approach is useful for testing instrument sounds, for me, particularly piano and organ. I use my (silent) controller keyboard for piano practice.

[rwayland]

Well, if you don't care about the appearance and legibility, with a sequencer such as Sonar, you could use the default time signature, start the recording, then begin playing. The result may look like it belongs in a pile behind the barn, but the playback will be reasonable. Also, with Sonar, you could enter the notes in step time, ignore the meter, select the note value you want, and Sonar (or other sequencer) will tie the notes across the bar line as necessary to get the note length as you want it. A similar approach is possible using Sibelius. Just select flexitime input, start playing, and there it is, ugly as you could wish, but if your only concern is sound and not appearance, who care? Probably Cakewalk Home Studio works the same; I have forgotten. I have looked at many a midi file that looked like gibberish, but played well.

You may have to adjust tempo, but I don't think so, because if you save your work without changing parameters, you will play back at the input tempo.

I am thinking that Overture SE might do the job also. But the last time I used it, it crashed my system! Maybe I will re-install, and try again.

This approach is useful for testing instrument sounds, for me, particularly piano and organ. I use my (silent) controller keyboard for piano practice.


Well, it does not work quite that way in Sibelius! The tempo is the main problem. But I just dashed of a few bars in Sonar, and it played back rather close to my playing. Sibelius cleaned up the notation too much, made many wrong choices, made a neat score that did not bear a very close relationship to my input.

[imagegod]

Thanks for all the suggestions...as always they're much appreciated. Regrettably, I can't use a keyboard...I can only input notes via notation programs. (But don't feel bad for me...my musical vision is stupendous...gargantuan...I just can't yet get my set up to work as desired!)

Take my word, I understand it's difficult to help me...but that's precisely why I've told people I have specific neurological deficits.

But many thanks for the effort!

[Joseph Burrell]

Imagegod,

It looks like Overture 4 will contain the functionality you require.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=199356#post199356

[Jeff Turner]

Imagegod,

It looks like the upcoming Overture 4 update will do exactly what you need.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24538&page=2

[imagegod]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Turner
Don, one of the members of the forum is looking for notation software to use with GPO that has the option of "un-locking" the time signature
Jeff

I saw this and have decided to add it to the Overture 4 list."

My God, you guys are beyond fantastic! It's like Christmas in September! Wow, I'm so grateful...you have no idea how much I love music and how much this means to me (well, by this time perhaps you do a little!). Thanks Jeff for bringing it up...things Jeff and Joseph for sticking with this...thanks Mr. Geniesoft for being a real Genie!...thanks Gary...thanks Mr. Northersounds...and thanks Tinkerbell while I'm at it.

I'm so glad I bought GPO...clearly everyone in this community has gone far beyond the call of duty to make all this work.

My undying gratitude to all!!!

[Jeff Turner]

Imagegod,

Once Overture 4 comes out, you're going to have to let us hear some of your music. I can't wait.

Jeff

[imagegod]

Imagegod,

Once Overture 4 comes out, you're going to have to let us hear some of your music. I can't wait.

Jeff

That's extremely kind and generous of you! I'm looking forward to it myself. I'm still in the process of finishing off my Portfolio of Art (by putting the final touches on 30 years worth of paintings, drawings and photographs) as well as setting up/learning GPO. But once I have something worthy of this very fine forum, I'd love people to hear.

Thanks again!