Soundcards

[chasman1]

I think I need a new soundcard!

I am a new user of GPO and I am finding it just great with Sibelius. However, I also want to use it with Cubasis, and when I play in real time I find that the latency causes problems.

At present I have a Soundblaster Audigy, some years old now, so I guess it is about time for a change. I have used a lot of soundfonts in the past, and since I often need to use guitars, drums, etc, I am wondering how best to proceed, since GPO alone is not quite sufficient for my needs at the moment (I am sure it will be when the Big Band edition is released!)

Ideally I would like to be able to continue to use my large collection of soundfonts, but any help or suggestions as to a more suitable soundcard would be greatly appreciated. Should I just upgrade to an Audigy 2 - or is there a better solution that anyone could recommend?

Many thanks in advance,

Peter

[kitekrazy]

The Audigy cards aren't really designed for that. You will get some latency with many cards using softsynths live.

[billp]

when I play in real time I find that the latency causes problems.
Your CPU has more to do with latency than your soundcard when you're using soft synths (Kontakt player). Soft synths rely on your CPU whereas the SB cards are essentially hardware synths and don't rely on the CPU to generate the sound.

What is your CPU? My old one was a 2Ghz Pentium/512MB/SBLive! and I found that I couldn't get very far with GPO without raising the latency to unacceptable levels for live playing.

Got to go to a class now, but post your system specs and you'll get some more useful feedback.

GPO's really great when you get your system tuned to use it.

[chasman1]

Your CPU has more to do with latency than your soundcard when you're using soft synths (Kontakt player). Soft synths rely on your CPU whereas the SB cards are essentially hardware synths and don't rely on the CPU to generate the sound.

What is your CPU? My old one was a 2Ghz Pentium/512MB/SBLive! and I found that I couldn't get very far with GPO without raising the latency to unacceptable levels for live playing.

Got to go to a class now, but post your system specs and you'll get some more useful feedback.

GPO's really great when you get your system tuned to use it.

Thanks for that billp. My system is running with an Athlon XP3000 with 1 gig of Ram (and Audigy Platinum) and I would be very grateful for any help in tuning the system for GPO - although I am very willing to upgrade the soundcard if this will help. The playing in problems occur in Cubasis and also with Sibelius Flexitime (but I seldom use this feature since I mostly use Sibelius as a notation tool.) And GPO is really great already - even with my system as it is - I just want to get the very best out of it!

[mistahamma]

The M-Audio cards are great, and are wicked cheap at the moment. You can get a great-sounding Audiophile 2496 for under $100. But you'll need to keep the SB to play the soundfonts, or you'll need another software player that will load soundfonts (like the VSampler bundled with Sonar Producer). I believe there are some free soundfont players available, check around. The Audiophile does not have a built-in synth, so it doesn't play back soundfonts directly.

You might also look into the new PCI cards from EMU, I believe they will play back soundfonts (they are really like souped-up SoundBlasters). Price is low, people are beginning to give them good reviews. Get one that has a number followed by "m", they have better A-D converters. I don't recommend the Audigy. I own one, it happens to co-exist OK with my M-Audio 1010lt (others have issues), but there are better solutions available.

Jim

[billp]

Thanks for that billp. My system is running with an Athlon XP3000 with 1 gig of Ram (and Audigy Platinum)
Chasman,
The AMD 3000+, right? With 1GB ram, this should be plenty powerful enough. I'm wondering now if you've tried lowering the latency.

On my AMD 3200+ machine, I'm running at 7ms, and could actually go lower. I'm using the EMU 1820 and am recording at 24/44.1.

I'm a SONAR user and SONAR's CPU meter stays well within the green (no dropouts) even with quite a bit of polyphony--maybe 30 simultaneous voices.

If you're having problems going to lower latencies, review what other processes are running on your system, as this is pretty much a matter of overall CPU load. You shouldn't be running anti-virus, email, or other stuff in the background.

I agree with mistahamma/jim--If decide to upgrade your soundcard and your studio budget allows it, get away from the SB cards, and into something else. You can use a free soft synth like sfz (http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm) to play soundfonts. It's not as convenient as the good ole SB cards, but you'll be amazed at the improvement in sound quality and dynamic range you get by going to a better card.

[chasman1]

[QUOTE=billp]Chasman,
The AMD 3000+, right? With 1GB ram, this should be plenty powerful enough. I'm wondering now if you've tried lowering the latency.

Thanks again for all the help! Yes I have tried lowering the latency, but below about 40ms I get clicking as I play in.........I have not yet tried it after closing down everything else though. I guess I should have thought of that and tried it already.....

I will investigate alternative soundfont players - that seems like a good way to keep the use of the soundfonts and upgrade to a card that will perform better.

[Ron Klaren]

Your CPU has more to do with latency than your soundcard when you're using soft synths (Kontakt player). Soft synths rely on your CPU whereas the SB cards are essentially hardware synths and don't rely on the CPU to generate the sound.
Are you sure about this ?

I have 2 soundcards in my computer, an internal that gets me a latency of 200ms (!) and a EWS MT88 that can go up to 0.7ms when working in 96 KHz.
The more power your CPU has, the more voices it can generate, and the smaller buffersize you can have (which affects latency), but your soundcard is usually the bottleneck.

Specialised soundcards give way better results then gamesoundcards...

@TS: I would buy a solid audiocard and a softsampler for the soundfonts, if I were you (and had the funds for it.)

[billp]

Are you sure about this ?
Ron,
Good point. I'm glad you didn't let me get by with that without a challenge. I was a little sloppy there. SB cards >using soundfonts< are essentially hardware synths.

When they are used with GPO/softsynths, they are operating under the same rules as any other card, and drivers (MME, WDM/KS, ASIO) do make a difference.

On my old system--a Dell 2.0Mhz/512KB ram/SBLive!/WDM/KS drivers/4 playback buffers/--I ran some benchmarks with GPO (which unfortunately I removed from that machine when I got my new DAW). I hadn't done much with soft synths up to that point. It was on that machine that I first observed the effect of polyphony on my CPU utilization. I can still drive VSampler on that machine at 10ms latency if I'm not playing "too many notes" simultaneously or in rapid succession.

The move to soft synths over the years has forced some of us old soundfont dogs to have to give more consideration to our machine configurations. Just buying more memory for your 2Ghz machine won't mean that you can necessarily drive the entire orchestra tutti.

To whit: Gary's request thread for "how many instruments can you load" was a good idea qualitatively but I would be hard pressed to derive any quantitative results from it...so I posted a suggestion that we all use a standard benchmark to measure the capacity of our DAWs. Tom Hopkins thought that was a good idea, so I posted one of my benchmark packages in that thread. The benchmark requires at least 1GB memory. I have others that are more modest. It does demonstrate the polyphony effect and the effect of rapidly executing a series of notes.

Now, if I could just find some time to do a little music...

[Quasar]

Hi Peter,

http://www.synthfont.com/

This is supposed to give you the same sf2 utility that you currently have with the SB card, although I can't vouch for it. It is freeware, but if it works for you they would appreciate a donation. I always believe in supporting software developers. Anyway, it's just a thought, there's a lot of stuff out there.

Michael

[LFO]

There is an ASIO driver that was created to be used across mulitple card brands, including Soundblaster, that has helped many Soundblaster users get great latency with their cards. It is called Asio4all and can be found here:
http://michael.tippach.bei.t-online.de/asio4all/

I would give these a shot if you'd rather not purchase a new card.

Also, if you are going to purchase a new card, consider the following as it will prevent much heartache in the future.

1) How many inputs/outputs will I need?

2) Is this card compatible with my motherboard and chipset?

3) How will my home studio grow in the future? Should I buy with future expansion under consideration?

That being said, there are great cards out there from Echo, Aardvark, EMU, the list goes on. We'll be glad to help you as you try to narrow down choices. :)

-Kevin

[KevinKauai]

I don't know why I'm a walking commercial for them, but I love my M-Audio Firewire 410. Connects to the PC with a single Firewire cord [gets its power from there too, if you've got a spare 6-pin Firewire socket] and all the rest plugs into it (MIDI in/out, optical S/PDIF in/out, 2 audio in and 8 audio out). List for around $399 but you can find strreet prices of $299, I think.

According to others more hardware savvy than I, it's also fairly swift in the latency area (where lower numbers are better). It also has two convenient (L/R) mic or line inputs right at the front of the unit (which can best be described as a small cigar box). Cute lights, too!

i hope this helps ... KevinKauai

[chasman1]

[QUOTE=LFO]There is an ASIO driver that was created to be used across mulitple card brands, including Soundblaster, that has helped many Soundblaster users get great latency with their cards. It is called Asio4all and can be found here:
http://michael.tippach.bei.t-online.de/asio4all/


Thank you for the help, Kevin. I downloaded Asio4All as you recommended and it seemed to have solved the probem - latency improved tremedously when I played the standalone GPO. However, when I tried to sequence a passage (having first checked that the Asio4All driver was also enabled in the sequencer) the computer froze solid! The only way to close it down was by turning off the power. Since then the same thing happens if I use it in the sequencer (Cubasis 4VST) and also in my notation program, Sibelius 3.1.3.

When the computer freezes, everything stops except for a regular clicking/"dinging" sound which it is impossible to stop (except by turning the computer off.

Everything works fine if I go back to my previous settings (i.e. not using a4a) but of course the latency problem also returns then.

I wonder if anyone has any ideas?

Peter

[LFO]

Hey Peter,
Well, there is progress, at least at the latency level. First off, what version of Windows are you using? If it is 98 or ME, there are some other things you need to to. See the FAQ on the Asio4all site for details.

If you are running Win2k/XP, try changing some of the options in the Asio4all control panel. The one biggie is the Direct DMA Buffer. If that is not it, try the others and see if you can get a combination that works. I have not come across anyone who could not use the driver, so don't lose hope yet! :)

-Kevin

[chasman1]

Hey Peter,
Well, there is progress, at least at the latency level. First off, what version of Windows are you using? If it is 98 or ME, there are some other things you need to to. See the FAQ on the Asio4all site for details.

If you are running Win2k/XP, try changing some of the options in the Asio4all control panel. The one biggie is the Direct DMA Buffer. If that is not it, try the others and see if you can get a combination that works. I have not come across anyone who could not use the driver, so don't lose hope yet! :)

-Kevin

Thanks for the encouragement! I shall keep experimenting as you suggest. I am using XP and the really annoying thing is the fact that when I first used A4all it was so good.........until the crash! The latency at that point was 23ms and that was a big improvement. I shall make every effort not to be the first to fail with this driver - and I shall not lose hope (or sleep!) at the moment.

Peter

[chasman1]

Hey Peter,
Well, there is progress, at least at the latency level. First off, what version of Windows are you using? If it is 98 or ME, there are some other things you need to to. See the FAQ on the Asio4all site for details.

If you are running Win2k/XP, try changing some of the options in the Asio4all control panel. The one biggie is the Direct DMA Buffer. If that is not it, try the others and see if you can get a combination that works. I have not come across anyone who could not use the driver, so don't lose hope yet! :)

-Kevin

Well it seems that I am not going to be the first to fail with this driver! There was another thread: "Still cant get ASIO drivers working with GPO studio" in NS forum which suggested that you should not use the same driver with Studio and Cubasis...........so I tried that and I seem to have managed to get the latency down and NO crashes! I was using GPO, Sibelius and Kontakt Silver (which comes with Sibelius) in the same score - notating some parts and playing in others, and I got very good synchronisation! I also played in a piano piece using GM sounds in Sibelius and then copied it to GPO Harpsichord and both played back together in synch. Maybe only a start but I feel great now!

Thank you for all the assistance - maybe I won't need to spring for a new soundcard after all!

Peter

[LFO]

That is great news! Glad to hear you are up and running, Peter.

-Kevin

[JackB]

I have an audigy Platinum Pro.

It works fine with ASIO drivers at 4ms latency.

I use GPO, Kontakt, East-West in real time recording in Cubase SX (Cubasis that came with GPO also works)

My system is an Asus board with 1 GB memory and a P4 3.4 processor.

The only drivers that work, though are the ASIO drivers. Everything else has too much latency. I have two choices--I use the 48 (not 96).

For some reason these have to be set nearly everytime I start the programs. They don't stay set when I shut down.

[rwayland]

I think I need a new soundcard!

I am a new user of GPO and I am finding it just great with Sibelius. However, I also want to use it with Cubasis, and when I play in real time I find that the latency causes problems.

At present I have a Soundblaster Audigy, some years old now, so I guess it is about time for a change. I have used a lot of soundfonts in the past, and since I often need to use guitars, drums, etc, I am wondering how best to proceed, since GPO alone is not quite sufficient for my needs at the moment (I am sure it will be when the Big Band edition is released!)

Ideally I would like to be able to continue to use my large collection of soundfonts, but any help or suggestions as to a more suitable soundcard would be greatly appreciated. Should I just upgrade to an Audigy 2 - or is there a better solution that anyone could recommend?

Many thanks in advance,

Peter


Probably I am missing something here. BUT: when I play live, either with Sonar or GPO stand alone, I reduce the latency to 7 or less, and have no problems. My sound card is Audigy 2 ZS and I just updated the drivers, which removed some clicks and crashes. Also, today, I forgot to reset the latency, and was playing back some organ pieces and it worked flawlessly and recorded well. So, while Audigy may not be the best sound card, it sure seems adequate for my present needs.

I am running XP, home edition with SP2, 1 gig ram, 1.8 gig cpu. I have no background programs running except the virus stuff, which I don't like to disable for fear of forgetting to enable it when going on line.

[robgb]

I just bought the new E-MU 0404 24/96 sound card that many have been raving about and will let you know how it works out. $85 w/academic discount -- a price that can't be beat. It's the newest kid on the block.

The few reviews that are available have given this card very high marks, with reports of 4m latency. It won't, however, play soundfonts. But there are freeware VSTs available to help you with that.

Another great thing about the card is it has onboard hardware effects, including reverb, compression, delay, chorus, eq, distortion, etc. (20 fx, 500 presets) -- which will lessen the strain on your cpu -- plus at the end of september, EMU will be handing out PowerFX to all EMU soundcard users, which will allow you to run the effects as VSTs with a minimum of fuss (at present you have to route them through the software mixer).

The card also includes a virtual mixer that is supposed to be incredible. Here's a link:

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?product=2220&category=754&maincategory=754

[Lux]

There is an ASIO driver that was created to be used across mulitple card brands, including Soundblaster, that has helped many Soundblaster users get great latency with their cards. It is called Asio4all and can be found here:
http://michael.tippach.bei.t-online.de/asio4all/


Great link LFO.
It did a huge improvement to my 1.8 PIV, and greatly reduced latency, pops and clicks.

Thanks for the info

Luca

[robgb]

Following up on my previous post, I've played around with the E-MU 0404 and think it's a superb card, particularly for its price range. Certainly blows the Audiophile out of the water (but then the audiophile has some mileage on it).

I highly recommend this card as a budget friendly, yet fully professional, solution.

[chasman1]

Thanks for all the advice and help.........I finally settled on the Audigy 2 ZS, so that I can continue to use my collection of soundfonts, and I am delighted with the result (after some problems getting the card to talk to GPO and Sibelius for a while!). When the Garritan big band/concert band add ons arrive I will certainly take a good look at the EMU 404 - I shan't need extra sounds then!

Peter

[rwayland]

Thanks for all the advice and help.........I finally settled on the Audigy 2 ZS, so that I can continue to use my collection of soundfonts, and I am delighted with the result (after some problems getting the card to talk to GPO and Sibelius for a while!). When the Garritan big band/concert band add ons arrive I will certainly take a good look at the EMU 404 - I shan't need extra sounds then!

Peter

Well, I have been pleased with my Audigy 2 ZS, but my standard caveat: Check for driver updates, even though your card is new. If you seem to experience any unusual behaviour in any application, there is a good chance that your drivers should be updated. It is a fairly long, slow update, but worth the effort.

If you manage to get a sample rate other than 48100, I would be interested in your settings. 48100 is fine for my needs, but it is always convenient to know how to change things when the need arises.

Richard Wayland

[robgb]

If you manage to get a sample rate other than 48100, I would be interested in your settings. 48100 is fine for my needs, but it is always convenient to know how to change things when the need arises.

I believe the Audigy ASIO driver will only allow the 48k rate.

[rwayland]

I believe the Audigy ASIO driver will only allow the 48k rate.
Thanks, that's what I thought, but was not sure. It is not a problem, as I can easily convert to 44100 when I need it.

Richard Wayland