Strange Rewire behaviour-Can you test?

[dalamein]

Hi All

Rewire, is a great functionality to have when using Gigastudio with a Sequencer and in fact I was very exited to test this functionality.

I have observed some issues with running Cubase SX 2 with Rewire, and have found that I am not the only one with this issue. I just looked at a few posts, and am taking the posts that relate to my experience with Rewire, so that we can test it and see if our experiences are similar.

Some have reported that Rewire causes glitches or weird small burst artifacts when the Rewire has been Exported in Audio via Cubase Sx2. I have come across the same problem.

Here are some quotes: from current users that have these issues:

NT wrote:

Help! I'm experiencing several problems exporting material. I'm using Cubase SX 2 rewired to Giga3.

I loaded up the vsl flute sus and everything plays/sounds right within cubase sx. I then go to export it with File/Export/Audio Mixdown and suddenly the file exports with some problems. First as soon as it finishes exporting it makes an unpleasant sound burst like it's only rendering the last note. It has never done this before with rewire (I use reason and sx rewire also).

The resulting wav file renders the full project, but only renders with each of the first milliseconds of each note sounding then cutting off immediately.

Below is a link to the resulting file
Export MP3 (http://home.earthlink.net/~ntmusic5/giga3testexport.mp3)

I read the manual and it looks like I've been doing things properly. I've been using Reason with Cubase rewired for quite some time now. So it's not like I'm new to this. Haven't had a problem with that combination yet. I could have overlooked something though.

.....I did try the Real Time export function and there's still a lot of audio problems. Notes getting cut off and wierd clicks and pops.

Here is a mp3 of the Real Time export result.
RealTime Export Test (http://home.earthlink.net/~ntmusic5/test2.mp3)

At this point, I'm stumped. Thanks for any help.

Any ideas? Thanks for any help.


Later Worra also aknowledged this issue:

Yep, I'm getting this too...

Bruce Richardson Wrote:

Yes, folks, try this and speak up please!! The developers need to know the scoop on this, for sure. I had no access to their bug database as a tester, but I cannot imagine that Cubase in and of itself is a ReWire problem, since so many people use it. Hopefully there's something very simple at work here, which can be resolved.


My observations thus far:
I also set up Gigastudio 3 for Rewire, and when in Cubase Sx2, I have a midi file and activated Rewire. I can hear everything. It seems very stable and I have sound coming from Gigastudio 3.

1. My sample rate is all 24bit ( Double checked this in Cubase SX2, Gigastudio 3, and my RME DSP settings.

All other material, including Midi exports to Audio without issues. I also can take a 24 bit audio file and export it as an MP3 using the UV22HR dithering.

When I export a Rewire with Gigastudio, I have tried the Methods described in the manual:

1)Make sure ASIO is deactivated in Background and use Realtime Export function.

After the realtime export I get the same results as Worra and NT within Cubase SX2. Worra and NT it is not your Echo cards I believe because I am using an RME HDSP 9632 for audio.

So the problem seems to lie with the Signal from Giga 3>REwire /Output.

Here are my results in mp 3 format, so that you can listen to these artifacts and little bursts that both Worra and NT have experienced and described when Exporting Audio in Real time within Cubase SX2.

Mp3 Example:

http://www.soundsonics.net/Rewiretest.mp3

Notice these small bursts or glitches, one almost at the very beginning (at 03 seconds and then closer in the middle towards the end (around 14 seconds), and then very close to the end of the mp3 (around 18 seconds)

This was audible in the wave file before the Mp3 was created.

If there are any other users who can test this and please post results here.
What were your results?

Regards

Dave

[nt]

Thank you for confirming this! So it's not a soundcard issue then, it looks like.

One question. How do you set your Giga settings to 24 bit? In File/System Settings/Hardware, I can only select 32bit depth. However I set my Cubase project settings at 24 bit...

Considering Reason works via rewire to SX, I can only conclude it's a GigaStudio 3 issue.

One other question to ask, is anyone using Sonar/other sequencers Rewired to Giga export working?

[dalamein]

Thank you for confirming this! So it's not a soundcard issue then, it looks like.

One question. How do you set your Giga settings to 24 bit? In File/System Settings/Hardware, I can only select 32bit depth. However I set my Cubase project settings at 24 bit...

Considering Reason works via rewire to SX, I can only conclude it's a GigaStudio 3 issue.

One other question to ask, is anyone using Sonar/other sequencers Rewired to Giga export working?

Thanks for responding NT.

Update:

So far this is working here and I did 4 tests with the same outcome. I increased my buffer size to 1024 (23ms) in the RME DSP, and did 4 different tests. It seems to have fixed my problem.

Listen here is an example with my buffer size very low at 128 (3ms).

http://www.soundsonics.net/Rewiretest-03.mp3

Notice the artifacts-Sounds like samples are stolen/glitches. Very evident at around (3-4 seconds) then (6-7 seconds) then (11-12 seconds) then (15-18 seconds) then (23-27 seconds) and so on.


So I guess when using Giga as Rewire you can have the lower buffer, unless you start to hear these sample stealing once you insert more gigapulses and add more Samples. Then when youre ready to export increase the buffer size.

Please can anyone else test this by increasing their buffer size, especially those who have had these porblems with Cubase SX2 and please report back. Worra, NT? I would appreciate it.

So far this has solved the issue for me.

Good Luck

Dave

[nt]

Now I made no changes except increase the Sample Buffer all the way up to 1024 (23ms) and even 2048 (46ms) and this is what happened to the exact file on Realtime Export:


Thanks for working on this issue. :) Where can I change my sample buffer settings so I can test this? Is this a cubase setting or in gigastudio or my gsif settings in my soundcard? Right now my soundcard's console settings is set at 256 samples. Do I need to change it here and in cubase as well?

[dalamein]

Thanks for working on this issue. :) Where can I change my sample buffer settings so I can test this? Is this a cubase setting or in gigastudio or my gsif settings in my soundcard? Right now my soundcard's console settings is set at 256 samples. Do I need to change it here and in cubase as well?


Youre welcome. When you open the ASIO panel in Cubase SX it links to the actual DSP panel that your soundcard uses. Therefore yes, the actual source for changing the sample buffer size is on your Audio card. Please test and see if this resolves it. The above example used 2 instances of Gigapulse.

Dave

[nt]

My Testing round #2

Cubase SX2 - Giga 3 - AMD Athlon Processor - Echo Gina 24/96

I upped my buffer sizes, normally work in 256 samples with the prior tests.

In 512/1024 samples offline rendering was still as before - ie every note being messed up.

In 512/1024/2048 realtime rendering was improved over the 256 setting. However there were still many problems, notes being eaten, audio issues, crackling, popping. Offline rendering at 2048 produced only silence.

1024 samples realtime rendering - MP3 (http://home.earthlink.net/~ntmusic5/buffertest7realtime.mp3)

2048 samples realtime rendering - MP3 (http://home.earthlink.net/~ntmusic5/buffertest8samplesrealtime.mp3)

Still not useable by any means on my side...

[dalamein]

My Testing round #2

Cubase SX2 - Giga 3 - AMD Athlon Processor - Echo Gina 24/96

I upped my buffer sizes, normally work in 256 samples with the prior tests.

In 512/1024 samples offline rendering was still as before - ie every note being messed up.

In 512/1024/2048 realtime rendering was improved over the 256 setting. However there were still many problems, notes being eaten, audio issues, crackling, popping. Offline rendering at 2048 produced only silence.

1024 samples realtime rendering - MP3 (http://home.earthlink.net/~ntmusic5/buffertest7realtime.mp3)

2048 samples realtime rendering - MP3 (http://home.earthlink.net/~ntmusic5/buffertest8samplesrealtime.mp3)

Still not useable by any means on my side...


NTThanks for your test, so we can thus see that increasing the buffer had no real effect on your system. So this sample buffer is not the issue.

Make sure that you do not have any Hardware such as Audio outputs Selected withiin Giga 3's hardware section or any Midi for that matter. Do you have ASIO in Backgound Disabled?

Anyone else with ideas or Worra can you test your results within Cubase Sx2?


Thanks

Dave

[TommyB]

I am using Nuendo 2.0 with GS3. I am not able to record audio files via Rewire. I have followed the guidlines of Nuendo and GS. I keep getting blank files. I can hear the Piano during playback. Does anyone have any ideas that I can try or perhaps you can point out what I am missing.

[nt]

Is your buffer high?

I got silence when...
Offline rendering at 2048 produced only silence.

[Cody]

I'm having the same problem with Sonar 3 Producer. An Echo Darla and GS3 in rewire mode. The workaround for me is to uncheck the "fastbounce" option in the render to audio page. Then the mixdown takes as long as it takes to play the song in real time. But when I do it this way, I get a perfect mixdown. I'd prefer the high speed mixdown. Hope someone figures out the problem.

[dalamein]

I'm having the same problem with Sonar 3 Producer. An Echo Darla and GS3 in rewire mode. The workaround for me is to uncheck the "fastbounce" option in the render to audio page. Then the mixdown takes as long as it takes to play the song in real time. But when I do it this way, I get a perfect mixdown. I'd prefer the high speed mixdown. Hope someone figures out the problem.

Nt and friends Ok, I Just fired up my system tonight, and did exactly the same thing as last night. Even with adjusting my buffer tonight, the glitches and artifacts still occur. So this is not a buffer size issue. I am sure that we can eliminate that possibility of being an issue, because even having no strain on samples, the glitches still occur.

For those of you with experience in Cubase and running another Rewire Device such as Reason, are you getting these issues?

If you are not getting these issues at all with Reason as a slave to Cubase Sx2, yet you are with Giga3 and Sx2, then I think this is very possible a Giga3/Rewire issue or Giga doesnt like to run in Rewire with Cubase Sx2.

Can anyone test this behaviour when running Reason in Cubase SX2?

The problem here is:
1.Giga3/Rewire
or Cubase Sx (yet if Reason works then its not Cubase Sx2)
then we know its Giga 3.

I have no success with exporting with a normal Audio Mixdown. There is no wave file showing at all. So I have the same symptoms as many of you regardless of increasing the buffer or not increasing it.

You have to choose Real time Export/Mixdown, yet the glitches are still occuring with a Real Time Export.

So my observations thus far are: its not a buffer size issue and its not an Echo audio card issue.

Please test, we need more outcomes.

Dave

[gugliel]

Well here's my ambiguous contribution -- when I first installed GS3 with sonar 3 PE, rewire and bouce to track worked fine. I decided that it was impossible to work that way because the note names in sonar do not show up in 'event window', so changed gigastudio to NOT use rewire.

Just re-configured to use rewire, to run the test for you, and now I get the blank tracks that you are describing.

[EDIT] And started a new sonar project, completely blank, inserted a gigastudio track as a rewire device, with no patch changes: bounce to track worked just fine. This is consistent with most bugs in release products, of course: they have to work in certain situations, or the developers would never dare to release them!

Another problem in any usage of gs3 for me: PATCH Changes in the midi line are often missed; not always, but frequently. My midi tracks change instrument regularly, from a staccato violin, say, to a sustained one -- and these changes are getting missed. Anyone else see THIS problem?

[gugliel]

Could this be a failure to assign instruments? GS3 is ignoring change requests, sometiems, so if a GS3 track has no instrument assigned it will not record anything. You can watch the assignment on the Midi Mixer view.

[Guga Bernardo]

I just want to tell you that the very same issue happens with kontakt, and it has nothing to do with Rewire. This is most likely a poliphony overload problem and it is related to Direct from Disk reading operations. In kontakt, the only solution to this problem is rendering the tracks one by one, and then mixing everything back into one file. The other thing is that using multiples instances of VST to play multiple instruments works better than using one instance playing several instruments. Using real time export option in cubase is also good for improving the results. Anyway, this should not happen in light sessions with few instruments playing, just in the larger sections with long notes and several instruments.

[nt]

It is not a polyphony problem. In my MP3 clips I was only using 1-2 notes at a time, and only one instrument loaded. That was the extent of my project size for test purposes. Unless Giga3 can't handle 1-2 notes at a time? ;)

[gugliel]

right, me too, with regard to the bank/patch change failures: not a polyphony problem, I specifically reduced everything to a new file, one track, two patches, 4 notes, well spaced.

[dalamein]

Back on track with the Rewire issue. NT yes even only with one instrument I am getting glitches after my Real Time export in Cubase SX2 as well, so my system result is the same as yours. I beleieve Worra is having the same problem. NT, you mentioned that you had Reason running in Cubase SX2. With Reason can you do a regular audio mixdown or realtime export? When you do a realtime export you have no artifacts then using the same soundcard settings and hardware? Everything is good with a Reason Export?


Thanks
Dave

[nt]

Dave, I just tested this. I have been using Reason rewired to Cubase SX 1 and 2 for the last year and half with no problems using Offline export even down to 256 samples.

I just tested Realtime Export right now with reason/sx2, using even the same project file as the giga3 test (I just switched the source to reason) - there are no problems rendering with this option also. It exported the wav file perfectly.

I can only conclude with all our tests that this is definitely a Giga3 problem. I'm planning on upgrading to SX3 in 2 weeks. Hopefully this could improve the situation?

PS. Anyone know the email address of Giga tech support? They should definitely check this thread. Synthetic are you there? ;)

[gugliel]

Hello, dalamein, I took some time to test your problem -- think you could check on mine? Can you change BANK under midi control, changing from an instrument say at bank 0 , program 1 to bank 1, program 2? All the VSL solo strings, for instance, are set up in different banks, so I'm having great problems with this. But it could be something special to my sonar 3 + gigastudio 3 setup.

[TommyB]

I am now convinced that the issue is with GS3's rewire function. I was successful in recording from GS3 to Nuendo 2.0 via the tradtional means(analog inputs and outputs) Tried recording GS3 using rewire with no export recording. I then set up Reason with Nuendo utilizing Rewire and was successful with export recording.

[dalamein]

I am now convinced that the issue is with GS3's rewire function. I was successful in recording from GS3 to Nuendo 2.0 via the tradtional means(analog inputs and outputs) Tried recording GS3 using rewire with no export recording. I then set up Reason with Nuendo utilizing Rewire and was successful with export recording.

Tommy, yes after narrowing down more possibilities I have also come to the conclusion that this is possible bug and a Giga3 problem.


Dave

[mts]

Add me to the list of tried and failed... my audio exports from Cubase SX2 using rewire from GS3 were horrific! The weird thing is that one of the 11 instruments loaded actually played perfectly even though all the other instruments were dropping out, glitching or not even sounding. It's funny, but it made me think of the musicians going down with the ship in Titanic! :D

[Rich Pell]

Wow, this is a REAL drag to hear. Rewire in GS3 was one of the main reasons i upgraded. Wait for the 1st bug fix i guess/hope.. :o rich

[TommyB]

I finally was able to audio export via rewire. Cant make any promises that it will work for all but here is what I did to accomplish the task.

Enable the Real Time Export in Nuendo(Im sure SX is the same) and export.

Here is a short piano sample. The velocities are a little out of wack as I used a small midi controller to input for the test and I did not tweak the sample at all.

http://www.artistcollaboration.com/users/gtrworks/piano%20test-01.mp3

[dalamein]

I finally was able to audio export via rewire. Cant make any promises that it will work for all but here is what I did to accomplish the task.

Enable the Real Time Export in Nuendo(Im sure SX is the same) and export.

Here is a short piano sample. The velocities are a little out of wack as I used a small midi controller to input for the test and I did not tweak the sample at all.

http://www.artistcollaboration.com/users/gtrworks/piano%20test-01.mp3


TommyB. Yes for those of us who have tried a Realtime Export, just as Giga 3 manual suggest, the wave files one can definately see, yet most users with Cubase SX as you can see in the threads including Worra, myself, NT and others are having audio artifacts and small glitches after a Real Time Export. The Wave file looks ok, but you can hear those arifacts. Can you try and do a realtime export a few more times and listen to the audio files after you import then and see if they have any glitches or artifacts?

This would be appreciated.

Dave

[TommyB]

No prob dave. That was on my list of things to do. Also wanted to try to export a mutiple takes as well as one export. The previous export was using 512 samples using a layla20 soundcard.

[dalamein]

No prob dave. That was on my list of things to do. Also wanted to try to export a mutiple takes as well as one export. The previous export was using 512 samples using a layla20 soundcard.


Thanks TommyB, Other users are welcome to test this behaviour as well.



Dave

[TommyB]

I tried exporting two tracks and got glitches and atifacts. I tried every possible setting on sequencer, GS3 and soundcard. No go.

[Alan Lastufka]

Alan thank you for the informaion. Please post at http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24609 as you may be the first SX user to report a working situation...

I was curious that you guys were having so much trouble, so I went and read thru the thread - then went back to SX and Giga to Export and.......

...sure enough, my smile has been turned upside down. I am having the EXACT same problems as all of you, anyone who wants to hear can add me to their MSN and I will IM the mp3 to them - I don't have FTP software on this machine. My MSN is cubase_sx_user@hotmail.com (AOL IM is LastLibs)

Sorry guys... I just hadn't the need to export anything until now, been busy with rebuilding the bass lib - and everything was going so well too - for the Tascam folks - here are the specs on my Giga/SX2 comp:

Pentium 4 2.4GHz w/ 533 FSB
768MB of RDRAM PC1066 @ 533MHz

Giga and SX are on the C: drive while samples are on the D:

[TommyB]

Really like the demo's on your FYI

[TommyB]

OOPS. Hit the submit button to fast. Hehe.

Love your Demo's Alan. Sounds great

[Alan Lastufka]

OOPS. Hit the submit button to fast. Hehe.

Love your Demo's Alan. Sounds great

Thanks... do you mean on my personal site/personal music... or the LastLibs.com demos for my Bass Library?

Either way - thanks again! :) GS3 version should be coming soon - the editor is basically the same as 2.54 so - just putting the time in to get it all programmed correctly - the bounce function was a bummer though...

[cunningham]

Same Rewire export problem using Gigastudio3, Sonar PE, and Delta44 card. Waves look fine, but the sound glitches almost every couple of seconds (even with a single instrument).

Gugliel,
I'm having same problem as you too with the instruments switching around. May be related to the port and channel settings in the gig files. I seem to recall a problem with 2.5 if you use two instruments set to default to the same port and channel....I think Gigastudio trys to intellegently anticipate the conflict and reassigns....almost always incorrectly.

BillC

[dalamein]

Same Rewire export problem using Gigastudio3, Sonar PE, and Delta44 card. Waves look fine, but the sound glitches almost every couple of seconds (even with a single instrument).

Gugliel,
I'm having same problem as you too with the instruments switching around. May be related to the port and channel settings in the gig files. I seem to recall a problem with 2.5 if you use two instruments set to default to the same port and channel....I think Gigastudio trys to intellegently anticipate the conflict and reassigns....almost always incorrectly.

BillC

So it looks like regardless of Sequencer, we are all experiencing the same behaviour with Rewire. Glitches in Audio after Mixdown. This basically confirms that there is a Giga 3 issue.

Dave

[TommyB]

I just exported this mix via rewire and got no glithes or artifacts. The guitar lead part which folows the end of the vocal is what was added. Seems to work sonetimes and not others. No system changes.

http://www.artistcollaboration.com/users/gtrworks/How%20on%20Earth%20mix1.mp3

[dalamein]

I just exported this mix via rewire and got no glithes or artifacts. The guitar lead part which folows the end of the vocal is what was added. Seems to work sonetimes and not others. No system changes.

http://www.artistcollaboration.com/users/gtrworks/How%20on%20Earth%20mix1.mp3


I am getting the same results TommyB. With no system changes I might get Rewire export to Audio using Cubase SX2, yet most of the time when exporting, I still get these artifacts.

Has anyone gotten more familiar with this issue? Exporting Reason and Rewire causes no such artifacts, only when I export to Audio using Gigastudio 3 as Rewire causes this. I just tested it.


Dave

[panzerD]

Has anyone contacted Tascam about these rewire issues yet?


Will there be a bug fix for GS3? There's so many bugs going on!

[ostaz]

Same problem here...Cubase SX + Delta 66. Maddening.

Pete

[Sovereign]

Is there even someone for whom rewire is working properly?

[Christopher Duncan]

I have a similar issue with Rewire. Running Nuendo 2 & GS3 on a P4 / 3.0 ghz / 3 gigs memory system. Sound card is my Digi 001 for Pro Tools LE, which of course forces GS into Rewire mode. That's fine, as that's what I'd planned on using. However, when playing midi Rewired into Nuendo, the note start times are inconsistent, e.g. a measure of sixteenth notes does not play evenly. No audio clicks or artifacts, but the midi timing problems are making Rewire an unusable scenario. Also tried with Sonar 3, same results.

As an additional test, I routed midi from Nuendo and Sonar to my computer's built in sound card and cheesy on board synth with WDM drivers. No timing issues at all. So, based on what I've read here, there seems to be issues in general with Rewire. I hadn't planned on buying a new box to dedicate to GS3 and bought it with the intention of using Rewire, so this is somewhat inconvenient. Hopefully there will be a maintenance release out soon that will address these issues. However, if anyone has encountered these midi timing problems via Rewire and found a workaround, I'd be grateful for any insights.

Thanks,

Christopher Duncan
www.ShowProgramming.com

[jaykay]

Folks,

I've found the same behaviour with Cubase SE and GS 3.0 + Audiophile 24/96 card.

One suggestion that I still have to try is to set the System Processing Priority to "background tasks". It's one of the tuning suggestions. Maybe that will help.

I haven't tried contacting Tech Support yet...but I'm considering it....

jaykay

[jaykay]

I can report that there was no improvment when the System Processing Priority to was set to "background tasks".

Does anyone know of a work around???? This is a real show stopper!

[vanceen]

I get some glitches when bouncing Rewire tracks using GS3 with SONAR. Turning off "fast bounce" eliminates the problem.

Although I would prefer to use fast bounce, I have to say that even with this problem GS3 has it all over GS2.54. By assigning the GS3 instruments to different busses in SONAR, I can simultaneously bounce as many tracks as I want to. This is MUCH better than Capturing on track at a time in real time, like in the good old days!

[kitekrazy]

I get some glitches when bouncing Rewire tracks using GS3 with SONAR. Turning off "fast bounce" eliminates the problem.

Although I would prefer to use fast bounce, I have to say that even with this problem GS3 has it all over GS2.54. By assigning the GS3 instruments to different busses in SONAR, I can simultaneously bounce as many tracks as I want to. This is MUCH better than Capturing on track at a time in real time, like in the good old days!

Thanks for the heads up on the fast bounce. I had the same problem too.

[Mona]

Hi!
I´ve the same strange behaviour with Cubase and GS 3.01 + Audiophile 24/96 or RME 9652 card. :mad:
If I try to export the rewire channel I got an audio file which is chopped off. It only plays the first notes and chopped off the rest of the accord. I try to change the asio buffersize and in GS but without any improvements. The same failure exists if I export a monophone melody. If I export the Reason rewire channel I got no problems, so I think it´s really a GS rewire problem.

Thanks and greets
Mona

[TobyBrez]

Giga3, SONAR3, Win2k and using Rewire I can bounce with no artifacts with Sonar "fast bounce" turned off.

Toby
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/tobybrezmusic.htm

[gabrito]

I figured out how to get around the Rewire issue on Cubase SX 2.0

You go to Expert mode under VST multitrack and change the Audio Priority to low. I also put 6 seconds on preload amount and unchecked lower latency. after that i was able to get audio mixdowns even without the real-time option checked.

hope it helps

gabe

[Sepretod]

Bumping this thread. I recently purchased GigaStudio and have been having this exact same problem - googling everywhere has not found a solution, either.

Is there any way to fix this? I just sent an e-mail to Tascam asking about it, and if they give me a good solution I'll post it here.

Man, this whole glitch thing is a pain.

Edit: found out the solution, which I guess explains why this thread hasn't been bumped for over a year: I needed to download the patch from the TASCAM Gigastudio website, updating Gigastudio to version 3.12. Hooray!