The Guide to MIDI Orchestration book - BEWILDERED and CONFUSED

[Ed]

(Before I go off on this little rant, feel free to stop me at any point and tell me where exactly I can find, in the book, the relevant parts i am talking about. I would love to find out! And I would love to be able to apologise for this post and being a stupid panicking tit for missing it)



I just received this book, and just to be clear, I have not delved that deep yet. However, I was ( and still am) very excited about what it would (will) teach me. I am still sure I will gain a lot out of this book, as there is still a excellent amount of information in there, and cant want until audio examples are available on the site.

But I am still disappointed, ( BUT I hope Ive missed something)

I dont want to knock the Paul Gilreath (or the other writers?) for what IS there which is, I stress, fantastic. The problem lies, at least for me and I presume other newbies, is what ISNT there.

The thing is, in a book of this magnitude I thought they would at least teach you how to use CC7 and CC11. I have skimmed through the book, trying to find some reference to it and I only found brief mentions. How can this be? --- This book is supposed to be for not only those that dont know much about orchestration, but are good with midi BUT also those that are apt at orchestration and want to know how to use their skills in the midi realm. As Mr Gilreath points out in the Introduction, MIDI Orchestration is hard because it means you also have to have competent knowledge of computers, samples and MIDI.

I assumed there would be a whole chapter on this, or at least a sub chapter or something. Its like they just missed it out or something. Isnt learning the CC7 and CC11, (well, especially Expression), one of the very basics and even part of basis of writing convincing orchestral lines? You dont need complicated orchestration to need to make use of MIDI Expression, which having listened to many a MIDI mockup, including TJ's and Maartens old stuff it also makes a big difference to what samples you are using. For example I listened to one of Maartens old pieces a long time ago and thought it was Miroslav strings, yet found out it was simply AO's string ensemble patch! And I thought it sounded good not just because of the orchestration either, thats the point.

If I am wrong, which I would love to be. If I have jumped before looking properly, which I would love to say I have, then please tell me where I can find this part in the book.

Part of me thinks I MUST be wrong, why wouldn't they include something as important as this? No no, I must have missed something. But I just cant find anything on it.

If I am right about this, and they really didnt include it, why the heck not? For someone who knows how to use these controls (like Maarten or TJ, say) I for one would pay a LOT of money for a properly written tutorial, audio examples would be a preferable addition.

And Im sure a lot of newbies would agree with me, right?

Ed

[Joseph Burrell]

I would assume that Paul only touched on controller functions because various libraries use them in different ways. Not all sample libraries use the same controllers for the same functions. The strongest section on the book I feel is the instrument sections as well as the chapter on mixing for orchestra. All around I feel that this book belongs in everyones collection. Ed, I would say that it is the fault of the developers for not explaining the proper use of the midi controllers for their particular libraries. I've always noticed that documentation is scarce where samples are concerned, or is beefed up in areas where it doesn't need it and lean where it is needed. Anyways, if you have particular libraries you question the controls of, I'd ask some of the guys on the forum to help out.

[§eth]

I felt a little disappointed when I received it as well. I'm new to midi orchestrations or any kind of computer recording. I read how the book was used in Colleges across the US so I thought it was sort of a text book on how to do such things, but as I look through the pages, I see some stuff in there that gives you a basic understanding of the orchestra set up, but it has other stuff in there that (don't get me wrong It's awesome to read interviews from people like Gary Garriton, Jeremy Soule, Doug Rogers, etc and a listing of all the most popular library's out there) but I'd rather be reading how to give expression to a piece or something along those lines, like you mentioned. It is very pretty and seems pretty easy to read, but I do not see how it's a reference book, I think folks that frequent the forums or have a subscription to keyboard magazine would get the same info for much cheaper. I just think it's a little misleading tittle for what I'm looking for. I'm not bashing the book at all I'll have to actually go through it, but the several parts I read through did not give me anything new from reading my basic orchestration books (cost me much less than this monster did too) covered all this already. To be fair I would like to actually read it before saying anything negative. This was just my first impresison.

[Ed]

Joseph,

I too feel it should belong in everyones collection, and like I said whats there is really great. I dont want to comment on the rest of it, becuase as I said, I am very happy with that. It just seems to me that they left out a very critical issue.

I dont think its just the fault of the developers, this book is *supposed* to be teaching you this stuff! It even explains its aims in the introduction, and that is to teach you the stuff Im talking about. Expression control is something that really is so very important. Yes you are right, the devopers should perhaps tell you how to use the mod wheel cross-fades better, but really, its something you'd understand how to use if you really understood how to use expression control anyway. - I say its really a MIDI issue, not a sample library issue, as you could use expression on general midi instruments and make them sound 10 times better than using them straight, which is why I dont agree its all up to developers - though it would be nice.

Developers should explain how to use their tools better, sure. But why a book, such as this, that says it will explain this kind of stuff to you and then doesnt explain such simple, yet so very important, techniques such as MIDI Expression control I fail to understand. Sure on page 125 and 126 we get a small section on the use of expression, but while its all very nice, I think it deserves something a lot more indepth. There isnt even any pictures of how the curves might look, or even what the best hardware controller for this might be. Sure maybe I missed it, but unfortunatly it seems I dont think I have.

As for asking here, there is only so much information you can get. There are some very nice people who have given tips and techniques, and some have even given midi files but NO ONE has ever - it seems - written a proper tutorial - which I think deserves a mini book - on this. ([1]See END ) This would include how to approach it, which controllers to use (hardware or whatever), different techniques for different instruments such as strings, ETC. Some dont even want to give away their secrets so its hard asking those like TJ and Maarten how they do stuff, which is fair enough. (but this book I thought would teach you this stuff, because you see, it sort of implies it will. )

([1] I believe the writing for strings" course which I think is run by Peter at TruSpec might cover this, but I dont know. I would hope, as I have tried to explain, that it really should if it doesnt already.

Ed

[aplanchard]

See page 125-126. You guys should take a little more time to delve into and evaluate this book. One might be able to get the same info through magazines, etc., but he has done it for you in a very cohesive and thorough manner. Man if I had only had this years ago when I was making the switch to the virtual world. Read the book carefully, and I am confident that you will feel it is some of the best money you have ever spent. By the way, I do not know Paul but am truly very impressed with his work.

Allan

[§eth]

thanks, like I said I did not want to say anything negative I mentioned I had not read it yet, but what I had read was what I was stating. One page in a 700 page book was hard to find.

[R. Glenn]

I don't have this book and to be honest I have my doubts about bying it...even if I did have the money which I don't at this point.

Anyways...as someone else already pointed out, expression is one of THE most important factors when creating realistic mock-ups. It is not library specific...it is a general principle that one can apply to any library and one that IMHO could (or should even) easily deserve a chapter of it's own (in depth details on typical attacks and releases of various instruments and playing techniques etc).

Regarding people not wanting to give away their "secrets"...why should they? It is a result of many hours of research and trial and error...and the fact is that anyone can discover these "secrets" if they just put their mind to it...because it's pretty much just a question of carefully analyzing the real thing and using your common sense.

AFAIK that's how the greatest mock-up creators (like those mentioned in previous posts) did it and I personally think you're in for a big dissapointment if you think you can sound like them just by reading a book (this one or any other).

There are a number of crucial factors that are critical for a good sounding mock-up (expression being one of them)...but all of them are self-evident and should already be pretty obvious.

Like I said, I haven't read this book, for all I know it might be a great book (it probably is)...but I doubt it contains any "tricks" not already commonly known.

In other words, I don't think it's so much about the "tricks" themselves, but rather how you use them.

Just my 2 cent's.

Cheers

Rodney

[aplanchard]

thanks, like I said I did not want to say anything negative I mentioned I had not read it yet, but what I had read was what I was stating. One page in a 700 page book was hard to find.

Hopefully, I did not sound heavy handed -- certainly not my intention. In any event, discussion of CC11 is not really limited to a few pages. Paul addresses tons of useful ways to manipulate various technical parameters such as CC11 to achieve realistic results but in the context of each instrument group (strings, brass woodwinds and percussion), not as a separate topic. The index is not as detailed as it could have been, but set aside some time to dig in -- it is pretty much all there.

[R. Glenn]

Paul addresses tons of useful ways to manipulate various technical parameters such as CC11 to achieve realistic results but in the context of each instrument group (strings, brass woodwinds and percussion), not as a separate topic.Makes sense. Whether you distribute the info in a separate chapter or categorize it according to instrument is of no consequence...as long as it's there.

Question is how extensive the info is and if it contains anything most didn't already know? Then again...I haven't read the book...so.

Cheers

Rodney

[Ed]

See page 125-126. You guys should take a little more time to delve into and evaluate this book.


<snip>

This wasnt a negative comment on the entire book, just this one issue I have been talking about. And see my other reply above yours I did mention page 125-126, I didnt miss it. I just think something like should be an introduction, not an entire thing in itself.

Ed

[Martin Hines]

...I think folks that frequent the forums or have a subscription to keyboard magazine would get the same info for much cheaper.
I totally disagree. This is a 700 page book, and it has a tremendous amount of detail when compared to Keyboard Magazine (to which I subscribe).

I have only begun to get into it, and it is easily worth the money.

For someone who is "not bashing the book" and "would like to actually read it before saying anything negative" you have made quite a few negative comments about the book.

[aplanchard]

<snip>

I did mention page 125-126, I didnt miss it.

Ed

Doh. Maybe I should have delved more deeply into your post. LOL!

[Ed]

Regarding people not wanting to give away their "secrets"...why should they? It is a result of many hours of research and trial and error...and the fact is that anyone can discover these "secrets" if they just put their mind to it...because it's pretty much just a question of carefully analyzing the real thing and using your common sense.

AFAIK that's how the "(like those mentioned in previous posts) did it and I personally think you're in for a big dissapointment if you think you can sound like them just by reading a book (this one or any other).


<snip>

Firstly I am not saying they are "tricks". I am saying they are "techniques".

Secondly, you are correct, why should people give away their secrets? But I was simply saying WHY asking for help from this forum may not yeild the best advice as you would get from someone writing specifically to teach these things.

Yes the "greatest mock-up creators" learnt themselves, so? Whats your point? You think that means we all have to do the same? Why teach anything at all, after all, if someone else can figure it out on their own why shouldnt everyone else be able to as well? Why teach art or music, surely if others can do it by themselves we can too? Im not so naive to think I can "sound like them" just from reading this book. What I EXPECT is being able to learn the, rather basic yet essencial, techniques used to be able to orchestrate ideas I already have, so they will be more realistic and expressive.

You can be the greatest orchestrator in the world, but if you have never made a MIDI mockup or used the tools before, your results just arent going to sound that great because you, for one thing, dont know how to use MIDI Expression. This book teaches just about everything else it seems, so why not this, which is such an essential aspect of MIDI Orchestration?

The small mentions it seems to give, like that on page 125, 126 just isnt enough. I want to see screen shots of the expression curves, I want to have it discussed why it was done it that way, what the best way of imputing such data is, how to think in that way, etc. If you were going to teach someone this stuff this is the stuff they would want to know about, so am I really asking so much?


Ed



Ed

[Martin Hines]

The thing is, in a book of this magnitude I thought they would at least teach you how to use CC7 and CC11. I have skimmed through the book, trying to find some reference to it and I only found brief mentions.

And Im sure a lot of newbies would agree with me, right?
Nope, I disagree. I quickly read those two pages, and they seem fine to me. I appreciate the fact that the author writes in "musical terms" and mentions midi when he has to.

Perhaps you might want to buy Rob Young's "The Midi Files". It is very "midi-ish"; it has slightly more content on CC7/11:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130608637/qid=1095294611/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-3360152-1439842

[Ed]

Paul addresses tons of useful ways to manipulate various technical parameters such as CC11 to achieve realistic results but in the context of each instrument group .

Excellent! Then perhaps I have been wrong? If you would please list some page numbers for examples of this CC11 discussion I would be most greatfull. I found the part on page 125 and 126 works only well as an introduction, so if there is anything more detailed I would like to know.

Ed

[Ed]

Nope, I disagree.

Read pages 125-126 where it talks about CC#7 and CC#11.

What additional detail were you looking for?


Like I said previously:

"Sure on page 125 and 126 we get a small section on the use of expression, but while its all very nice, I think it deserves something a lot more indepth. There isnt even any pictures of how the curves might look, or even what the best hardware controller for this might be. Sure maybe I missed it, but unfortunatly it seems I dont think I have...."

"...The small mentions it seems to give, like that on page 125, 126 just isnt enough. I want to see screen shots of the expression curves, I want to have it discussed why it was done it that way, what the best way of imputing such data is, how to think in that way, etc. If you were going to teach someone this stuff this is the stuff they would want to know about, so am I really asking so much?"

And I will check out that book, thankyou.

Ed

[Martin Hines]

Ed,

While you may be disappointed about CC7/11 coverage, I am a little surprised you would criticize the book so quickly, especially given you haven't read the entire book.

You may try to claim you aren't being critical, but you really are, especially with that "news headline" of a topic title.

[Ed]

Nope, I disagree. I quickly read those two pages, and they seem fine to me. I appreciate the fact that the author writes in "musical terms" and mentions midi when he has to.


Hmm, I see you have edited your post.

What is the point in writing for both newbies to orchestration and also for newbies to MIDI, and then only "mentions midi when he has to"?

In the introduction to the book it says:

"The successful MIDI orchestrator must have a deep knowledge of orchestration as well as the comfort and knowledge necessary to work in the world of computers, samples and MIDI. If you do not fall into this category, you must learn what to do. This book can help fill in the gaps"

Well, I feel this is a rather big gap.

Ed

[Joseph Burrell]

No offense Ed, but you just draw the curves until they sound like you want them too. I mean, I just listen to what real strings, woods, or brass sound like playing similar notes and try to emulate it. It would be seemingly impossible to compile all the various ways to draw these curves and give you screenshots of each. Maybe I just don't understand what you're after, but its more a trial and error thing. I don't think there's anything out there that will give you exactly what you're talking about. I mean there's just so many nuences to each instrument and of course not to mention the thousands of ways to play them and how this is entered via midi. The book would have been 3,000 pages long. Sounds like on heck of project though. Maybe when I retire. :D

[Martin Hines]

Hmm, I see you have edited your post.Yes, I originally was going to ask what you meant by additional detail, but by the time I finished my post you had already answered the question in another post.


Well, I feel this is a rather big gap. I guess we will just have to disagree. I will reserve commenting on this book until I have had a chance to read it in its entirety.

I am a "newbie" also, and I don't see a problem at all with the book's coverage of these two control change commands.

[R. Glenn]

<snip>

Yes the "greatest mock-up creators" learnt themselves, so? Whats your point? You think that means we all have to do the same? Why teach anything at all, after all, if someone else can figure it out on their own why shouldnt everyone else be able to as well? Why teach art or music, surely if others can do it by themselves we can too? Im not so naive to think I can "sound like them" just from reading this book. What I EXPECT is being able to learn the, rather basic yet essencial, techniques used to be able to orchestrate ideas I already have, so they will be more realistic and expressive.Firstly....all the "basics" are pretty much already known as it has been stated over and over again by a number of people on this forum and others and on other interenet sources. Furthermore, the basic "tricks" (or "techniques" or whatever you feel like calling them) are nothing more than simple common sense.

Granted, if you are a complete newbie...and are not prepared to make any efforts on your own to listen to what has already been repeated over and over again (here and on lots of other places) and do not wish to do any form of searching or research by yourself...then I guess this kind of resource is very useful indeed.

My point is simply this: the info in this book is most likely nothing new than what has been said thousands of times before...so if it's nothing new then how much is it worth teaching or learning? And even if you do know the basics prinicples...you'll still have to figure out for your self how to best apply them.

If this is not the case, then how do you explain that even though pretty much everyone knows that expression is crucial for a good mock-up...yet there are only a very small number of people (like those previously mentioned) who can make good use of it and make it sound realistic?

Personally...unless this book doesn't provide some information previously unknown or not available elsewhere, then it's not worth $70 to me. IMHO it's cheaper (and more fun) to use your brain and the Google...and to pay attention to what the people who know what they're talking about say about these things.

Also...no offence...but why should anyone take the advice of a book of this kind without getting any proof of concept first? IMHO the author should provide some mock-up examples of his own...how else can one decide if his advice is worth taking?

I.e., if Thomas J was to write a book...I would know that it's advice would be good, because his mock-up's are. All I'm saying is that I havent seen (or more importantly heard) anything to convince me I should take advice from this book.

Yes...I might have to re-evaluate my sceptic attitude should it be completely unfounded...heck, I might even buy the book myself...but for now I'll just wait and see.

Cheers

Rodney

[Ed]

No offense Ed, but you just draw the curves until they sound like you want them too. I mean, I just listen to what real strings, woods, or brass sound like playing similar notes and try to emulate it.

<snip>

Commen sence eh? Well the way I see it is pretty much how R.Glenn put it above:

".... how do you explain that even though pretty much everyone knows that expression is crucial for a good mock-up...yet there are only a very small number of people (like those previously mentioned) who can make good use of it and make it sound realistic?"

A lot of things may sound like 'commen sence' to you, once you know how to do it. Expression is a technique that DOES leave many people bewildered and confused as they dont know how to use it correctly. Sure, there are people that can figure out how to do it very well on their own, but just like everything, not everyone can do that. And why should they?

Why is this topic something that somehow cannot be taught? Like some kind of strange unwritten rule, like if you cannot learn it on your own you're screwed. If the use of Expression is so obvious, like you suggest, then why cant everyone do it as well? Clearly there are people that will benefit and need a good clearly explained and easy to understand tutorial. Sometimes simple concepts are very hard to understand at first.

People got such use out of the "BlackWings" MIDI file which Bernard Asselin was kind enough to provide the MIDI file for the strings. Doesnt this tell you anything? And that was just one MIDI file!

Ed

[Lux]

Sorry to put me into that,

I don't have the book but I feel a misunderstanding in all discussion.
Imho those controllers affect only a few the realism of a piece, they are only absolute or relative volume knobs, nothing else.
They are not the "secret" door of a good piece.

The people you have mentioned before (they should have a whistle in their ears :D) do not achieve great results because they use well the volume knobs! they simply are very good orchestrators and composers and they have talent and ear. If you look to Bernard's midi file, take a look to the way he orchestrate, and you'll know why his pieces sound so well.

Teaching how to use pratically those knobs is quite impossible. Multiply articulations X dynamics X Instruments X sections X different libraries and you'll have a 1.000.000 pages book about the infinite dynamics in an orchestral work. No way.

Just my 2c

Luca

[Ed]

Sorry to put me into that,

Imho those controllers affect only a few the realism of a piece, they are only absolute or relative volume knobs, nothing else.
They are not the "secret" door of a good piece.

....

. If you look to Bernard's midi file, take a look to the way he orchestrate, and you'll know why his pieces sound so well.

Teaching how to use pratically those knobs is quite impossible. Multiply articulations X dynamics X Instruments X sections X different libraries and you'll have a 1.000.000 pages book about the infinite dynamics in an orchestral work. No way.


First point, I know they are only volume knobs but they make a big difference to a orchestral line, writing for strings especially, if you know how to use it. Which brings me to your second point.

Secondly then, if you look at Bernard's MIDI file you can see he is a good orchestrator YES, but do me a favour and delete all the Expression curves. Then see how good it sounds.
Its not just orchestration!!! Lke I said, you can have a very simple orchestration, and I mean VERY simple, and it will benefit so much in use of expression.

Thridly, you are being ridiculous. I am not suggesting someone need write every possible combination of infinite uses, or even write a huge book on the subject. A decent chapter in a MIDI Orchestration book would have sufficed, complete with a some screen shots, and descriptions, some good tips and what imput devices to use, ie, hardware or software. That wouldnt take a 1.000.000 pages book to write, but it would help so much. A few audio examples/MIDI examples of the screen shots would also be nice. This wouldnt take a million pages, it wouldnt even take a whole book.

Ed

[Lux]

There's much to discuss about what you said but I like to discuss only decently so...



Thridly, you are being ridiculous.
do what you want with that book, and use it to light cigarettes if you like.

Bye

[cunningham]

I think the information about midi control as it relates to orchestration is scattered throughout Mr. Gilreath's book. However, a complete novice also may want to pick up a book purely devoted to midi, such as the one recommended by Martin Hines elsewhere on this forum, to fill in any midi-specific knowledge gaps.

I've got Rob Young's book too, and it is really good...but don't expect it to cover orchestration (although there is a bit of discussion about traditional pop ensemble instruments).

Quoted material from Mr. Hines' post:
"If you want a good book on midi (not orchestration and midi), I would suggest Rob Young's "The Midi Files":

Amazon US
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books

Amazon UK (US customers can easily order from Amazon UK)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...2645581-7251840"

BillC

[Ed]

There's much to discuss about what you said but I like to discuss only decently so...

do what you want with that book, and use it to light cigarettes if you like.

Bye

It wasnt an insult, it was a fact. You made out that what I wanted was some mammoth task that was impossible to do, which isnt true at all. Im sorry if you think I was being rude, but it really wasnt intended.

And again, I am not bashing the whole book. I do think it is well written and I know I will find it very usefulll, its just again I am disapointed that this topic which I believe to be so important wasnt included.

Ed

[Ed]

I think the information about midi control as it relates to orchestration is scattered throughout Mr. Gilreath's book.
BillC


<snip>

Thanks Bill. I think I will buy The Midi Files. Hopefully it will explain it properly this time. We'll see.

I just dont understand why such an important topic wasnt discusses more indepth in a book like this. Since The MIDI Files isnt based on orchestration it would have been nice to have expression properly explained relating to orchestration. Oh well.

Ed

[Thomas_J]

Ed, I've stopped reading and posting on this forum - but on my visit today to read the EWQLSO 2 and VOTA 2 announcements I stumbled upon this little topic. I felt I could try and shed some light on your little issue of concern, Ed, so here goes...

Expression IS, like you say, extremely important, but before you even TOUCH the "magical" CC11 you need to balance your orchestra properly. This is unfortunately something that only your ears can help you do. Use some live orch recording as a reference track for the purpose of balancing each instrument to each other. The reference track should be very dynamic and feature the entire orchestra in a transparent yet massive orchestration. You might have to search a while for this piece. Starting from top to bottom in your template; the piccolo... find out where the piccolo is playing full blast in your reference track and balance your loudest volume (track/global volume setting) to match it. Play on top of the reference track to get it right. When you think you've got it, dial back a few notches as your ears WILL fool you to try and push your piccolo patch THROUGH the mix... while you're at it try and find the proper pan setting and apply it consistently throughout your piccolo tracks. Repeat for flutes, oboes, clarinets, bassoons, etc etc.

If you want realism this is a CRUCIAL operation that has to be done. It can take days. I recently spent 5 days setting up my new template.

The enormous plus side of this technique is that when your midi orchestra is playing tuttis, it'll sound perfectly balanced, provided it has been properly orchestrated :)

When you're done with the balancing you can start experimenting with CC11 in your tracks. CC11 is, as I'm sure you know, just another layer of volume control. All it does is control the volume relative to the global volume.

There's nothing to it, really. The technique involves mimicing the air pressure/flow (brass and wind instruments) and speed/pressure (string instruments). Percussion instruments will require absolutely NO CC11 when properly balanced, except in special cases of course.

You can assign CC11 to any type of controller you're comfortable with. Some like knobs, some like sliders, some like foot pedals. They all do the same thing. It's a matter of taste and need for precision. The longer the slider throw, the better the precision. Knobs are NOT a good alternative in my opinion.

For any patches that have dynamic cross fading you should avoid touching CC11 as these patches have "built-in" volume curves.

To begin with I suggest you limit your experimentation to sustained notes. Learn how to express a musical phrase properly using your favorite CC11 controller (slider, knob, pedal, whatever) until you get the hang of it. It is similar to learning how to play bach's invensions on the piano. Both acts require absolute coordination and a mind-linked seperate control over each hand. It takes a while to get it right.. it took me a while to learn all those invensions for my application test at the music conservatory :-)

A couple of tricks for you to help you get started:

1) Don't overdo it. Too often you are tempted to blow the FFF layers of a brass instrument just because it's there and the virtual players never tire :) Limit yourself! restrain the dynamics to 70% of max force.. you'll thank me for that later. Isn't it funny how the trumpets ALWAYS seem to have an extra 20% of power in the tutti crescendo finale? :D Apply this rule of thumb to your arsenal of mockup tricks.

2) Shape the attack and release of every note in the phrase so that it feels natural. The only way to learn how to apply proper expression to a musical phrase of a particular instrument is to study real recordings. It will take years and years. You essentially have to learn each instrument's ideomatic expression routines and apply that knowledge to your mockups. While bad attacks are usually the reason most mockups sound immediately synthy or/and unrealistic, releases are often just as revealing. Spend time shaping your releases with your newfound CC11 love.

3) While each instrument counts in an orchestration, a full orchestra playing has less neuances than a chamber orchestra playing the same thing. 4 violins performing heavy vibrato will sound a lot more "wobbly" than a section of 22 violins doing the same. The 22 violins cancel each others intonation inconsistencies out. The same general principle applies to midi mockuping. Extremely detailed CC11 to all your tracks could be a waste of time in that respect. In a large scale orchestral piece I recommend that you overdo any dynamic change such as diminuendo, crescendi or sforzandos for the sole purpose of realizing your intended effect.

4) Crescendos... are VERY hard to do in the mock-up world and it took me months of head-scratching to crack this nut. The answer is, as with most genius theories annoyingly simple. The impact of the crescendo is determined by the shape of the volume curve. An inverted exponential curve will give you very little punch at the moment of your intended climax, while a normal exponential curve will give you maximum punch. The reason I was confused is because I chose to rely on the laws of acoustics... a linear boost in sound is not really linear. As you know decibel is an exponential measurement. Knowing this, I incorrectly assumed that a linear curve would give me an exponential sounding dynamic change.


Ok, that's a few basic things to get you started, Ed!

I'm happy that your appreciation for my work is still there, even though I no longer contribute to what used to be a great forum.


Thomas

[Hans Adamson]

Awesome Thomas,

Thanks for sharing!

Hans

[R. Glenn]

Thank's Thomas. :)

[Ed]

Ok, that's a few basic things to get you started, Ed!

I'm happy that your appreciation for my work is still there, even though I no longer contribute to what used to be a great forum.


<snip>

That was fantastic, thank you so much for taking the time to write this. It is really appreciated. I know it was only basic but it will help a lot believe me. Im sure you will agree with me that a lot could be written on this subject!! I hope everything is going well with your career. :)

In case you read this reply, what is your favourite expression controller?

Anyway, thanks again. :)

Ed

[Looper]

Thanks Thomas, that was very informative. Will YOU be writing a book anytime soon? :)

[kitekrazy]

Ed, I'm glad you posted this rant. I know where you are coming from. Books that really explore midi aren't out there any more. It's really difficult to find a good midi book that goes beyond plugging in a keyboard and telling you which controller is which even tho you don't have a clue what it does.

I post a thread on a forum about this and the great books were no longer in print.

[Tokyo Joe]

Thanks Thomas. That post was worth more than $70, in fact it was priceless.


I'm happy that your appreciation for my work is still there, even though I no longer contribute to what used to be a great forum.

It's true, this board has changed and in some ways not for the better. Where's KING IDIOT? Where's DAMON? Where's SIMON (yeah, I know... he's banned.. about time you guys lifted it)? And THOMAS? These guys shared so much knowledge and their posts aways made for a fun read.

[FV]

Hi,

King still posts from time to time but nowhere near what he used to. It is really too bad, I agree. Although there were times where things would get a little bit outta hand, it used to very much be a more informative and entertaining place. What you get when you have a bunch of different personalities here, and many speaking their mind, is some interesting discussion. AFAIK, these guys have gone to ICQ where they can pretty much call it as they see it.

Online forums, in an effort to maintain civility and some order, tries to contain this when someone gets offended. Not saying that that did or did not happen here, just speaking in general.

While this place still has the odd good post here and there, it is not like it once was. :(

FV

[PaPa Chalk]

This is for the penalty box crew on mirc

You now what guys we’ve had enough of the forum manipulation and the insults. You don't like it here leave. No one is forced to stay here or post here. Its so funny how people will go out of their way to post that they are leaving. No one goes back to an offensive site or any site they don’t like. (Two clicks of the mouse its erased and you don’t have to return.) What’s the point of saying you don't like the forum but you still come back peeping. Our records show it time and again. This is quite amusing



Any one with special interests, will not manipulate us.

I've been called everything in the book you can imagine at this off site irc group. Even to the point that someone was thinking about making negative comments about my newborn daughter within that group. I guess their calling it like they see it FV. Is this something I should take as a funny joke .:mad:
I wouldn't normally post something like this but enough is enough. Its great informative info you’ll get from there.:rolleyes: It’s quite puzzling for me that some of you are still associated with it after the personal things shot in my direction. At least I know where I stand
with some of you.

I think we have been more than accommodating to many of you who are banned, have aliases now and in the past. Even in light of everything we know from your chats. we are accommodating to some who are friends with those who have been banned. Most of you have never met with me, but its easy to pass judgment or insults on those you don’t know, or may have different opinions with. (Ignorance is bliss to the ignorant)



At your group chat’s you can continue with the personal negative talk about me, users, the forum, developers and their products etc (can’t stop you). But As long as you are here on this forum treat the forum, others and us with respect. It's got to the point where I have ZERO Tolerance for this now. As for your conspiracy theories about the forum developers, users etc. You’re all WAAAY OFF in Speculation land.

It’s seems more like the fog of hate and Jealousy has clouded your eyes and minds.



I know the admins the easiest person to blame if things are not your way on this forum.

Hey why don’t you secretly start your own forum… ops I forgot you already tried this.

(Disclaimer: The text below is not directed at any individual but it is directed at an ideology it seems to induce a common syndrome Scientifically its called " Facial cellulites (http://www.homaegypt.com/shsfile.htm)".)

Hey here’s a list of things some of you can try again err...:o you might have done it already I'm too mentally ill to know.:D :rolleyes:

Solicit or spam Ns members through our forum private messaging no one will tell us the “admins” nothing. Every user receiving this information will be happy that you did this out of the goodness of your heart. It will be top secret. All the experienced “Know it all’s” will be at your new forum.

Its all newbie’s here you know as NS. Some newbie’s are Professors and musicians who were doing music before some of you were in diapers but they are newbie’s they know nothing of composing or midi or mockups.:rolleyes: You need to lead them to the site that will tell them the unbiased truth cough…. cough with a few insults here and there but that doesn’t matter cause everyone else is stupid they don’t know how to do demos they all SUCK they should listen to your demos because your the best critics at northernsounds.



Hey maybe you can get demos from a developer then bash his competitors product. Then next year you can switch developers. None of the developers should get mad or suspicious of stolen ideas from their products. Because you are the leaders of the sampling world.


You can post a demo as a female so every one can drool at your work then laugh and make insults at everyone who thinks your female even though you are male. just make sure her location is right next door to where the admins live in toronto we will never know.




You should get together and have a secret meeting on how you can get your own forum were you can do whatever you want. your group is the best. Make your own sample cds screw all the developers. Just make sure you read your NdA’s properly.;)

Make a new forum. Cause Northernsounds , KVR, Composerforums all SUCK because your not getting your way. People will leave in droves to your forum. But just keep checking back to see if northernsounds still sucks and while your at it make a post and answer a question while saying you don’t come to the site anymore.

(Disclaimer: The above text is not directed at any individual but it is directed at an ideology it seems to induce a common syndrome Scientifically its called ( Facial cellulites (http://www.homaegypt.com/shsfile.htm).)







Just to be clear No one told me to say anything about this. I’m an admin at this site and no one controls us regardless of any perspective. I think we have been more than fair we are not here to be manipulated, taken advantage or insulted.



Northern Sounds continues to be a leading resource for sampling, sound and technology. Which is still frequented by banned and self banned members, newbie’s, Award winning music composers, educators, hobbyist, developers.



Keep on surfing, peeping, or educating yourself.:D