What Officially IS next with GPO???

[Matt R.]

We've just had the update to GPO, and I've been making full use of it over the last week (long, but amusing story...must tell it sometime).

But what is NEXT in the pipeline, and when (approx) can we look forward to it becoming a reality?

I keep hearing references and rumours for the following:
* BIG BAND
* CELTIC
Both of which would be damn nice, especially for film/tv scoring.

From what I can gather, beta testing of these are underway, but what I want to know is (from a future buyer):

* Are these the next Libraries (or updates) to come, or is there something else we've missed?
* What instruments do these libraries contain?
* When can we look forward to their arrival (approx)?
* How much extra RAM will we need (and other hardware considerations)?

I understand there are other threads where people are saying "I'm looking for this instrument in the next installement of Garritan Sampleware," I just want to hear what's what.

Well Gary, Tom?

:)

Ciao

[Joseph Burrell]

I don't wish to be rude, but keep in mind that this last update was a big hurdle for them, so they're justly taking some time off before doing anything else. I can confirm that there are some great add ons in the works, but it may be a little bit before more information is released. This last update was an achievement and I think everyone should savor it before looking for anything else. I know Tom probably needs a month off from all the headaches from this last adventure. So be patient my sample hungry friends. I can promise that good things are on the horizon, but patience wins out.

[Tom Hopkins]

Matt,

Gary's the one to answer these when he gets back from San Fran. I understand your desire to have specifics about future projects (instrument lists, RAM size, arrival dates, etc.) but most of these answers will not be made available until a product is close to completion - for rather obvious business reasons. Since Gary is the guy to make the decisions on most of these things he's the one to dole out the info.

Tom

P.S. I WISH I were taking a month (or two or three) off. I'm not.

[Quasar]

Matt,

Gary's the one to answer these when he gets back from San Fran. I understand your desire to have specifics about future projects (instrument lists, RAM size, arrival dates, etc.) but most of these answers will not be made available until a product is close to completion - for rather obvious business reasons. Since Gary is the guy to make the decisions on most of these things he's the one to dole out the info.

Tom

P.S. I WISH I were taking a month (or two or three) off. I'm not.

After your latest, fantastic update, I understand your need for a little time, as long as you can provide a definitive answer within the next 48 hours. ;)

PSS: DO take a month off! (Or several.) You've more than earned it.

[Joseph Burrell]

P.S. I WISH I were taking a month (or two or three) off. I'm not.

You should join a union or something Tom. I imagine the Teamsters wouldn't allow that kind of thing.
:D

[Tom Hopkins]

A Union huh? Interesting. Let's see if I can talk (me) into organizing (me). When I combine forces with myself I'll bet there's no stopping that kind of power! Just think of the increased “intimidation factor” alone. Then I'll try to recruit Jeff and Marianne and Gary's daughters. He'll be outnumbered by that time and he will have no choice but to cave in to our demands! (Shouts of) “Shorter hours!! More money!! Paid vacations!! LONGER vacations!! MORE FREQUENT vacations!! MORE CHOCOLATE!!!” The future looks bright.

Tom

[Styxx]

A month off .... give me a break! Get to work and stop all of this mulling around coffee time is over! I want that HUGE percussion library of everything from snare zone hits to elephant farts! Now you listen to me young man. There's work to be done and no time for sleeping, eating, spending time with the family, watching your favorite show, going to a game, dinning out, taking a bath, washing your feet, driving your car, going shopping, did I mention sleep? Well, ya can't even day dream either now get to work or I'ma comin' on down ta hitch yaz up ta dem dar chair infrontofyaz PC boy~! :D

Wow, that took a lot out of me.... :eek:

I used to be in the American Steel Workers Union some time ago (when the U.S. actually made thier own steel) I wish I had all the dues back I put into that union. I could buy me some nice studio stuffs!

[Tom Hopkins]

Styxx,

"Now you listen to me young man."

"Young man." Thanks for that. I didn't earn it, but thanks anyway.

Tom

[DPDAN]

oh man LOL!
:D

[Haydn]

More vacations. You've had a couple months off so far this year even though it was in the looney bin! That's definitely too much. Now get back to those 16 hour days.

[Styxx]

More vacations. You've had a couple months off so far this year even though it was in the looney bin! That's definitely too much. Now get back to those 16 hour days.


THE MAN'S NUTS GRAB 'EM! :eek:

[rwayland]

Well, I have some things for band that have been waiting quite a few years for decent sax sounds and baritone horn. Also, some other things waiting for some nice guitars. I am partial to acoustic guitars, in particular, nylon strings.

BUT!!! Don't hurry it too much, as I expect to spend plenty of time getting comfortable with the latest update. I have only a few orchestral works, recorded with synth sounds, and they sure need some changes now.

I have about 700 midi files to work over, and nearly 200 audio files to record again! That is a task, should take me at least a day or two, so if you hurry with the next update or upgrade, my circuits will be overloaded.

Richard Wayland

[DPDAN]

WOW! Richard you will be overloaded. :)

[Matt R.]

Woah people! :confused:

I was never saying "NEED now, Gimmie." That was FAR from what I was after! - If that is what it sounded like then please refrain from thinking I'm being pushy - I am not.

I'm only wondering what projects are being worked on (eg Big Band, Celtic) and if there are any other details about these projects (like mentioned), and an approx timeframe (be it next month, six months, a year, years away.)

In no way do I think that people, especially Tom, don't deserve a break after releasing this update - they do, and well deserved it would and should be. I do not expect peoples timelines to change in order to release any of new wares I am referring to due to people asking questions like mine, nor would I like them to change for my own benefit. I fully agree, things are ready when they are READY.

Perhaps I've spent too many years around journalists - :) I'm used to having to ask lots of questions without the trimmings.



Tom Hopkins :-
Matt,

Gary's the one to answer these when he gets back from San Fran. I understand your desire to have specifics about future projects (instrument lists, RAM size, arrival dates, etc.) but most of these answers will not be made available until a product is close to completion - for rather obvious business reasons. Since Gary is the guy to make the decisions on most of these things he's the one to dole out the info.

Tom

P.S. I WISH I were taking a month (or two or three) off. I'm not.


Thanks Tom...and the updates served me well over the last day and a half, in which I wrote the whole score for a 12 minute short film (around 8-9 minutes of music)...sounds a HEAP better than me old sound canvas :)

I would NEVER have been able to do it any justice without it.

ciao
matt

[nexus]

Obviously ANY orchestral library benefits from more samples. There are of course, a few 'missing' instruments in GPO. What is planned will address all of that.

Just a couple: Gary mentioned to me bass oboe (a wonderfully dark and moody instrument) the "Wagner Tubas" I've been hawking on the forum. I understand that there will be much more brass like euphoniums etc.

Beyond that, we will just have to wait and see. GPO gives you right at this moment 90% of what you need to compose rich and complex music, so..............


P.S: I'm looking forward to an avant garde 'effects' add-on! :)

[Christopher Duncan]

P.S. I WISH I were taking a month (or two or three) off. I'm not.Trust me, folks, if Tom had a few months off, he'd just be coding on some other pet project in his spare time. These programmer types basically get paid to play with their favorite toys. Kinda like musicians.

When you do what you love for a living, every day is a holiday, right, Tom? And do try to remember that when you've been up for several nights straight without sleep working frantically to get that next release out... http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Christopher Duncan]

I'm only wondering what projects are being worked on (eg Big Band, Celtic) and if there are any other details about these projects (like mentioned), and an approx timeframe (be it next month, six months, a year, years away.)Hey, Matt.

I don't think anyone was really picking on you. Well, not anymore than we pick on anyone else, of course. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Not only is it unwise in general to announce a product before you're ready to release it (in any industry) since it gives your competition "fair warning" to counter your initiative, in software it's even more dangerous.

Although it would be nice if operating systems, development tools, and the whims of the digital gods all worked as advertised, in reality that's never the case. Not only is programming a bit complex without any additional factors, it's complicated greatly by what those in the business lovingly refer to as "The Unknown". You can spend months writing code based on certain assumptions, and then a week before the deadline hit some unadvertised technical glitch that throws the entire project into disarray. You have no idea how common this is unless you've been in the biz. Frankly, it's a miracle that anything ever ships.

Because of this, no seasoned software company will ever give pre release information of a project that's not completely done and ready to ship. It's far too common for things to go wrong at the last minute, causing you to either miss the ship date, have to drop features that simply aren't going to work, or (most commonly), all of the above.

Companies who let their loyal customers know their plans ahead of time found out the hard way that when this happens, you end up alienating your customers. They were counting on the ship date and / or features you announced, and when you change at the last minute, simply put, it disappoints the people you care the most about - your customers. If you wait until you know the new release works and then announce it as you're preparing the packaging, final documentation, marketing, etc., you deliver what you've promised, and everyone's happy.

A lot of companies don't follow this discipline, and they're always the companies that people are the most unhappy with because they didn't properly manage expectations. That's their fault, not the customers', by the way.

I know you weren't criticizing the GPO folks or being impatient, but I thought it might be useful for you to know the practical reasons why providing the information you were looking for would be bad policy for everyone. Besides, this way you can dream about the new release without limitations! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Matt R.]

Hey Chris et al,

I tried a career as a programmer in the mid/late 90's. I've got the University paper work to show I could do it, but the only paper work to show how much I hated doing it would be available from a registered head doctor. :)

Seriously, I couldn't stand it - it seemed too much like hard work, pressure, and sleepless nights to me. (Note: I'm now in the television industry...spot the dumb ~~~!)



Not only is it unwise in general to announce a product before you're ready to release it (in any industry) since it gives your competition "fair warning" to counter your initiative, in software it's even more dangerous.


Definately - happens all the time in my neck of the woods. Tell just enough people about your programme/film idea to get it to the stage where you can make it before the competition rings you by the short and curlies.

Though, having said that, GPO's been out for a little while now, and yet no one else has been able to match it for price and performance. :)



nexus
...Gary mentioned to me bass oboe (a wonderfully dark and moody instrument) the "Wagner Tubas" I've been hawking on the forum. I understand that there will be much more brass like euphoniums etc.


Cool - is this another update at somestage? Or perhaps the inclings of GPO2? Hmm. Maybe Gary would think about including the noise of rubbing a rubber head (or something like that) over a Gong? It's that weird Screatching noise used every now and again in films - also used at the start of one of the John Butler Trio songs.

The more percussion, and toys, the better I say!

But anywho: Onto the next section - or the reasons behind this topic.


Are they really real possible libraries?

For me, the main thing that does interest me a lot is (mentioned them a few times) the Big Band and Celtic libraries...none of which I could find more than a few whispers about (not even sure the celtic one is real or not).

Big Band excites me for the possible inclusion of a jazz kit (very, very handy to have a set of drums). Also a Sax collection - Soprano Sax wouldn't have gone a miss in my last project.

Celtic - I've heard so little about this, I'm wondering if I'm going mad...but I hope not. Can someone confirm?
I'd have so many uses for this, especially in another years time if certain funding decisions go my way. To be honest though, can you just imagine what it would be like to have the a lite Big Band providing rhythm, a Celtic Band with subtle melodies AND have the string section of an Orchestral backing? - Of course you'd have to watch what instruments you were mixing together or it would end up sounding like poo.

GPO Extension Pack - Ok, now I'm just making things up. But it wouldn't surprise me, going from some of the other whispers, that the next development with GPO would be an add on, as apposed to "The Next Version." The latest update was pretty substantial in terms of getting the sounds GPO already has up to a new level, so I cannot imagine them being much different in another version, unless Tom wants a heart attack and has to overhaul everything, or the next version was a long ways away. So to me, an Upgrade CD(s) to enhance the GPO experience (to purchase) would be the way to go.


Hardware Resources
The computer requirements will undoubtably need be higher. Though I would imagine (as I have for some time) that any future updates will require more RAM - how much though, I don't know - but by then any one with anything less than 2 GB of Ram would be the laughing stock of the community.

Would the next installments beyond GPO be going 24bit 96KHz? More sound cards can handle it these days, and will be moreso in the next year. But is there enough of a difference? Hmm.



So, it would be interesting to hear from Gary as to whether anything I've mentioned here is commentable, or maybe, as a lot of people seem to be trying to tell me (but I'm not listening too good these days) that the future of Garritan libraries is being kept very, very quiet.

If so, Then I'm still going to be asking questions :)


Peace out.
Matt

[Jake Johnson]

Any chance of just more velocity layers for the existing instruments? (I don't have GPO, but would be much more tempted if there were more soft layers.)

[ixm]

I am looking forward to hearing about these new developments - particularly Celtic and BBand.

[Tom Hopkins]

“Trust me, folks, if Tom had a few months off, he'd just be coding on some other pet project in his spare time. These programmer types basically get paid to play with their favorite toys. Kinda like musicians.”

That’s an interesting point, Christopher. I think what you say is true of most programmers but I am something of an exception to that rule. Why? Because my first love isn’t programming, I just fell into it as an adjunct to my other musical activities. First and foremost, I’m a composer and Jazz musician. Believe it or not this is my 52nd year in music – what a frightening thought! Can’t seem to decide what color that cremation urn should be! Hmmm. Anyway, my background covers (among other things) a decade from the late ‘80s as a composer, arranger, orchestrator, MIDI engineer, brass player (trumpet, flugelhorn, valve trombone) for PBS Television and other independent productions. For 3 decades before and during that time I was a gigging Jazz musician. I mention this because . . . if I had a few months off I would be immersing myself in my own musical projects – which would be WAY more fun than programming. So, for me it's not "kinda like musicians," it's *exactly* like musicians. :)

Of course, being a musician helps me to be a better programmer because I know what kind of tools I would like to have had during those many productions in years past. 15 years ago I would have killed for a product like GPO – at any price. You wouldn’t believe the things we had to do when we needed to deliver orchestral simulations prior to the advent of even the Proteus modules (no, we didn’t have the budget for real orchestras). When I rarely see a re-broadcast of one of those old shows I'm amazed that things mostly sound OK. It's a wonder, considering the limitations we were working under.

Truth be told, what I like best about programming is getting to hear people take these tools and create interesting new music with them. That’s very satisfying.

Tom

[Tom Hopkins]

Jake,

"Any chance of just more velocity layers for the existing instruments? (I don't have GPO, but would be much more tempted if there were more soft layers.)"

The GPO perspective is a little different than other libraries. With a couple of exceptions, we choose to use programming tools to simulate the timbre differences between loud and soft samples rather than actual separate samples. That is one of the core concepts of the library: The use of a minimum number of samples and maximum application of sophisticated programming (actually, far beyond any other orchestral library that I’m aware of). Almost everything in the library uses simulation techniques. So, the answer to your question is: No, there will not be more samples layers added in the future. Is this a drawback? I think the work being done with the library shows that the advanced programming approach to dynamic timbre differences is quite successful and even has some advantages over multi layer sampling. One advantage is that volume/timbre changes are smooth and continuous (there are no discontinuities between layers). This approach runs counter to the trend in other libraries of throwing more samples at the problem of representing instruments accurately at different volume levels but it is surprisingly effective. It is one of the reasons that we can reach our goal of allowing users to load a rather large selection of orchestral instruments into one reasonably well-appointed computer and have each instrument self-contained (all capabilities available within a single small-footprint instrument). The philosophy behind GPO requires a break from standard sampling “wisdom” and it’s one of the things that set us apart.

Tom

[FredProgGH]

I think the work being done with the library shows that the advanced programming approach to dynamic timbre differences is quite successful and even has some advantages over multi layer sampling. One advantage is that volume/timbre changes are smooth and continuous (there are no discontinuities between layers). This approach runs counter to the trend in other libraries of throwing more samples at the problem of representing instruments accurately at different volume levels but it is surprisingly effective.

Well, in the end what matters is what the ear hears, not how it was arrived at. Your approach seems intuitive to me because the more samples you're working with the harder it must be to make them match. I can't imagine what it must be like to be at a string section sampling session and try to get 12 people to play the exact same note exactly the same in every respect except just slighter louder for hours on end. Everyone who pulls this stuff off deserves medals. I have to assume the future lies in physical modeling, or a combination of sampling heavily aided by physical modeling. Which is where you guys are probably headed- huh? Huh? Am I right?? :D

[Tom Hopkins]

Fred,

You'll get no argument from me.

Tom

[rwayland]

“Trust me, folks, if Tom had a few months off, he'd just be coding on some other pet project in his spare time. These programmer types basically get paid to play with their favorite toys. Kinda like musicians.”

That’s an interesting point, Christopher. I think what you say is true of most programmers but I am something of an exception to that rule. Why? Because my first love isn’t programming, I just fell into it as an adjunct to my other musical activities. First and foremost, I’m a composer and Jazz musician. Believe it or not this is my 52nd year in music – what a frightening thought! Can’t seem to decide what color that cremation urn should be! Hmmm. Anyway, my background covers (among other things) a decade from the late ‘80s as a composer, arranger, orchestrator, MIDI engineer, brass player (trumpet, flugelhorn, valve trombone) for PBS Television and other independent productions. For 3 decades before and during that time I was a gigging Jazz musician. I mention this because . . . if I had a few months off I would be immersing myself in my own musical projects – which would be WAY more fun than programming. So, for me it's not "kinda like musicians," it's *exactly* like musicians. :)

Of course, being a musician helps me to be a better programmer because I know what kind of tools I would like to have had during those many productions in years past. 15 years ago I would have killed for a product like GPO – at any price. You wouldn’t believe the things we had to do when we needed to deliver orchestral simulations prior to the advent of even the Proteus modules (no, we didn’t have the budget for real orchestras). When I rarely see a re-broadcast of one of those old shows I'm amazed that things mostly sound OK. It's a wonder, considering the limitations we were working under.

Truth be told, what I like best about programming is getting to hear people take these tools and create interesting new music with them. That’s very satisfying.
Tom


Well, that certainly explains how you make such grand musical sounds possible from a computer! The piano (my first instrument) sounds startlingly good on GPO now. Best and smoothest dynamic sweep I have encountered.

I have also found the trumpet to be quite good, certainly does a better job than I ever did with my cornet/trumpet/flugelhorn. Guess it's time to sell my flugel horn, but can't bear to part with the cornet!

Richard

[Garritan]

Very well put Christopher. You certainly articulated some of the reasons why it is not wise to make premature announcements. It seems you have been there and know all to well the pitfalls of such a policy. Murphy's law is often operational despite a developer's best intentions. The famous winemaker said "we shall serve no wine before its time" and may I add that we will make no announcement before its time as well.

Gary Garritan



Hey, Matt.

I don't think anyone was really picking on you. Well, not anymore than we pick on anyone else, of course. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Not only is it unwise in general to announce a product before you're ready to release it (in any industry) since it gives your competition "fair warning" to counter your initiative, in software it's even more dangerous.

Although it would be nice if operating systems, development tools, and the whims of the digital gods all worked as advertised, in reality that's never the case. Not only is programming a bit complex without any additional factors, it's complicated greatly by what those in the business lovingly refer to as "The Unknown". You can spend months writing code based on certain assumptions, and then a week before the deadline hit some unadvertised technical glitch that throws the entire project into disarray. You have no idea how common this is unless you've been in the biz. Frankly, it's a miracle that anything ever ships.

Because of this, no seasoned software company will ever give pre release information of a project that's not completely done and ready to ship. It's far too common for things to go wrong at the last minute, causing you to either miss the ship date, have to drop features that simply aren't going to work, or (most commonly), all of the above.

Companies who let their loyal customers know their plans ahead of time found out the hard way that when this happens, you end up alienating your customers. They were counting on the ship date and / or features you announced, and when you change at the last minute, simply put, it disappoints the people you care the most about - your customers. If you wait until you know the new release works and then announce it as you're preparing the packaging, final documentation, marketing, etc., you deliver what you've promised, and everyone's happy.

A lot of companies don't follow this discipline, and they're always the companies that people are the most unhappy with because they didn't properly manage expectations. That's their fault, not the customers', by the way.

I know you weren't criticizing the GPO folks or being impatient, but I thought it might be useful for you to know the practical reasons why providing the information you were looking for would be bad policy for everyone. Besides, this way you can dream about the new release without limitations! http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Shazbot]

Very well put Christopher. You certainly articulated some of the reasons why it is not wise to make premature announcements. It seems you have been there and know all to well the pitfalls of such a policy. Murphy's law is often operational despite a developer's best intentions. The famous winemaker said "we shall serve no wine before its time" and may I add that we will make no announcement before its time as well.

Gary Garritan
Actually, I think you've already given some good indications about your future plans and products (very vaguely, of course), and that is much appreciated and more than we could and perhaps should expect.

Oh, and here's this - :p Just because...

[Christopher Duncan]

It seems you have been there and know all to well the pitfalls of such a policy.15 years as a corporate software developer was enough to beat some sense into even my thick skull, although it does make for some great war stories.

It's actually quite nice being one of the users instead of one of the programmers for a change! :)

[Matt R.]

Hello Gary et al!


...The famous winemaker said "we shall serve no wine before its time" and may I add that we will make no announcement before its time as well.

Gary Garritan

Thankyou - this is, in a very bizare way, kind of what I was looking for (yes laugh and disbelieve me, but read the text in the title). I did try to get a little bit of certainty and confirmation from the soup of uncertainty and rumour, but it seems that the later is what the GPO world will have until the future becomes the present day. At that time we again can all say "how the [expletive deleted] did they [expletive deleted] do that?"

To be completely honest, the amount of solidity (it seemed) that a couple of the "future developments" held amoungst the lore of the posters here, made me suspect that there would be at least some confirmation of their existence (not saying there should be confirmation). I'm glad to finally know.

What Officially IS next with GPO???
Officially, GPO (and any future offshoots or enhancements), appears to be very much like an earthquake - the first thing anyone will know about any new advancements will be a few tremors - followed by a ground shaking, fault-line snapping, monster quake caused by thousands of people stamping their feet with joy on their way to the store (I discouraged myself from relating the x-rated version of that description).

Hyperbole, maybe. I am reserving judgement.

Undoubtably though, and with respect, I do believe there is a Big Band library, and with less certainty, a Celtic library in production - their contents, stage of development, and reality appear to be only known fully by those concerned. This leaves me happy in yet another bizare way...

For quite a while I was thinking "people are talking about these new libraries...have I missed something?" Apperently not. Though it would be nice to know about such things, the reality is, especially reading from Gary's post, that what has been said, is all that will be said until said so.

And that's how, it appears, it should be. Now I can get on with the rest of my life; fall in love, get a steady income, get married, a house in the country......

[nexus]

Any chance of just more velocity layers for the existing instruments? (I don't have GPO, but would be much more tempted if there were more soft layers.)

GPO doesn't use layers like that Jake, it doesn't need 'em!!

GPO has a much smoother dynamic change this way (just to put my two pennies on top of Tom's excellent explanation). :D

[DPDAN]

GPO doesn't use layers like that Jake, it doesn't need 'em!!

layers,,,,?
cakes have layers :)
everybody loves cake
CAKE !