Camille Saint-Saëns Piano Concerto - Movt 2

[SteveMitchell]

Hi All:

Truth be known, I sorta scared to post my music amongst all these talented folk. I've been working with GPO for about 3 weeks, and think I'm just even with the learning curve. GOS was WAY too heavy for me, and I never quite got the hang of it.

Please listen and comment. It's the 2nd Movt to the Piano Concerto No 2 by Camille Saint-Saëns. I just need some pointers here.

At this juncture, I'm not sure how avoid the 'staccato' on the woods running up and down. Also, this mix was done with headphones (an ultimate sin, but to Sennheiser HD-600's), but it's 3AM, so I have to.

I would REALLY appreciate some honest feedback, cold, hot or whatever. If it's broke, I need to fix it, if it needs more (smoother gliss), I need to know about it, and learn more of this WONDERFUL GPO stuff.

BTW, it's a VBR MP3 file, with highest quality I can muster w/o uploading the entire wav file.

http://www.classicalmidiresource.com/site/test/sspianocont2-2.mp3


Steve


PS - I'm not sure how to post MP3's to this site, so I just included a link from my website, if that's OK.

[FredProgGH]

Well, I'll say this: the expression you get out of the piano is fabulous. Really excellent dynamincs there.

[Hardy Heern]

Put it this way Steve....we're going to have to ask you for the MIDI and project file to prove that this wasn't a record!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Unfortunately it's not a piece I'm familiar with (although I'm familiar with some of his other works) but it's the second time on this forum that I have been very pleased to have been introduced to a piece that I have really enjoyed. What a fabulous composition. Anyway, this means that I have nothing to compare your rendition to.

However, if I had bought a CD with this piece sounding just like yours, then I would have been delighted.

I'm really impressed that you have made this in your first 3 weeks. If you played the piano live, even if it was speeded up later.....I'm still very much impressed. The piano playing/ sequencing does sound absolutely stunning....I even thought that I could hear the pedals!! I haven't heard better. Did you manage to obtain a 'starter' MIDI file or did you play/enter the whole lot??

I'm using headphones so the mix sounds perfect to me....I can't fault it...it just sounds so totally authentic to me....the sparkling Concert hall ambience is perfect. What reverb did you use? The VBR MP3 file certainly does the trick....I need to swot up what this is!

BTW Welcome to the forum....I certainly look forward to hearing more like this!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif I hope that I'm able to approach your standard at some point.

Any info on your sequencing and methods would be appreciated.

For your info this is one of the rare pieces where, using the MS Media Player, the progress band reaches the end but the piece carries on for a time. This also makes it impossible to relocate a particular part to rehear it....I don't know why this happens and can't offer any suggestions to help. In other words, I note the elapsed time counter reading at the part I want to relisten to, rewind and when the counter reaches the same time it's at a different part of the piece every time!!

There were a couple of points in the piece where I would have maybe tried a subtle change with the strings (but I can't for the reasons mentioned) but this would be very churlish anyway when it is 99% perfect to my ears!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif If this doesn't end up on Gary's demo page, I'll eat my (wife's) hat!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Steve, as you can tell I, thoroughly, enjoyed this. I do enjoy this forum when pieces like this turn up!!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Thanks

Frank

[Hardy Heern]

Well, I'll say this: the expression you get out of the piano is fabulous. Really excellent dynamincs there.
Hey Fred, unless you're visiting Europe you should be in bed!!!:D IMHO!

Frank

[Jun Yamamoto]

http://www.classicalmidiresource.com/site/test/sspianocont2-2.mp3

Dear Steve,

This is very nice! Absolutely fabulous. I love this performance.

Thanks for sharing your good music.

Sincerely,

[provette82]

[QUOTE=SteveMitchell]

Steve

I have played this concerto with orchestra a number of times and I have only one thing to say about your effort.......simply magnificent - its hard to believe its not a recording of a real performance. Piano is so real my Steinway Concert grand was winking at me in the other room and flapping its lid in approval.

You did a truly stunning job and I applaud your efforts as you must be a pianist to have captured the score at this level of expertise and sonic quality.
The piano solo is stupendous.

YOU MADE MY DAY...and YEAR!!!!

MY KINGDOM IS YOURS.

Paul Ouzts
Houston TX

[DPDAN]

It's wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Christopher Duncan]

Hi All:

Truth be known, I sorta scared to post my music amongst all these talented folk.Steve,

First, although it's not true in all environments, you should never worry about posting here. The GPO community is all about mutual support and encouragement. I personally think that's the way it should be everywhere, but the fact that it's not makes me value the folks here all the more.

And that being said, I loved your piece. Absolutely wonderful music, no matter how it was created. The bottom line is always what comes out of the speakers, and this was very enjoyable!

[SteveMitchell]

Oh my goodness, such high praise, and I just wanted to know what it sounded like. Folks, let me clarify that I did not sequence the original file. That was done back in 1998 by my friend and collaborator Dr. David Siu. Yes, he does magnificent work, which is why he and I hooked up over the years, with me rendering a lot of his works, along with some of mine too. I picked this one to re-render because of its simplicity. I do know that from our conversations about the work, that it was step-sequenced, as are most of his sequences. Mine are step-sequenced too, a little phrase played here, single chord there - eventually, you get done. I just recently got back "in the mood" to do music after several bad years.

Anyway, all I did was to take the original 16-channel MIDI file, split the tracks, convert expression data, add/subtract velocity midi data, and render the work. My reason for posting it here was to see if I was on the right track. It's nice to know that I am.

I'd still like to know how to keep the woods from sounding staccato on their various runs up and down.


Steve

[DPDAN]

I'd still like to know how to keep the woods from sounding staccato on their various runs up and down.
Steve
Is this piece supposed to be this fast?
For the woods runs, because of the fast tempo, you would want to leave the attack (front) of these notes alone, but stretch the end so that it overlaps into the next note, try it and see.
You may also want to consider reworking the strings at the tremelo sounding places that are around 1:28 and 4:20. Another thing to consider is that the low end should be rolled off considerably during the high piano registered notes around 3:35 there is too much key striking thud sound.
Just a few ideas, in my very very humble opinion.
I have great respect and admiration for you and this work, it is just great!

DPDan

[Hardy Heern]

Oh my goodness, such high praise, and I just wanted to know what it sounded like. Folks, let me clarify that I did not sequence the original file. That was done back in 1998 by my friend and collaborator Dr. David Siu. Yes, he does magnificent work, which is why he and I hooked up over the years, with me rendering a lot of his works, along with some of mine too. I picked this one to re-render because of its simplicity. I do know that from our conversations about the work, that it was step-sequenced, as are most of his sequences. Mine are step-sequenced too, a little phrase played here, single chord there - eventually, you get done. I just recently got back "in the mood" to do music after several bad years.

Anyway, all I did was to take the original 16-channel MIDI file, split the tracks, convert expression data, add/subtract velocity midi data, and render the work. My reason for posting it here was to see if I was on the right track. It's nice to know that I am.

I'd still like to know how to keep the woods from sounding staccato on their various runs up and down.


SteveSteve, I don't see any problem whatsoever in starting with an existing MIDI file for an existing composition. The only reason I asked the question was to discover just how much work went into it. I would always look for a starter MIDI file for an existing composition. It doesn't make any sense to me to enter all the notes if I could avoid it.....I'm just not that much of a masochist.

I am a mainly step-sequenc(ist) too. The real creative work is in the manipulation of the basic MIDI file to tweak it towards total realism. Therein lies the skill and the feedback to your success is in your ears....it's as simple? as that!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

I personally think that trying to emulate a production of an existing work is immensely satisfying and you have the opportunity to input your own interpretation and expression of the piece. We all know how various conductors and soloists can alter the way a composition sounds.

To illustrate the point, I fell in love with a rarely played piece 'Judex' from Mors et Vita. I heard it initially on the radio played by the Liverpool Symphony orchestra. I chanced to hear it on the radio again, years later, but this time by The London Philharmonic (I think)....When the presenter announced it I was excited as I hadn't heard it for ages. I can tell you it was almost beyond belief just how different the pieces were. The latter version was absolutely awful.....trust me. If I had heard the piece like this for the first time, I wouldn't have given it earspace!

Steve, like you I have been out of it for a number of years and am struggling to get going again. Efforts like yours are inspiring.....

Frank

[SteveMitchell]

Thank you Hardy. I thank all of you.

Hey DPDan, I found the controller - duh! - CC64 - Sustain. How could I forget!?!?. Anyway, new file posted 2 minutes ago with the changes.

Same link: http://www.classicalmidiresource.com/site/test/sspianocont2-2.mp3

SteveMitchell

[DPDAN]

Hi Steve, you have been busy :)
There is still some real weird stuff going on in the strings tremelo places. I think back when this midi track was created, the string tracks have a whole bunch of fast notes in quick repetition to duplicate a tremelo sound. Fortunately nowadays, we have sample libraries like GPO with tremelo patches already built in ready to go. To fix this, I would go to those few places and eliminate all the notes and replace it with just one, and use the keyswitched (KS) patch for that section, and use the "G" yellow key to switch to the tremelo sound. Try it you'll love it.
I liked the last chord louder like it was in your first mix, but the rest of the mix is great. It's still just a matter of taste, no big deal.

pickey DPDan :)

[SteveMitchell]

You're exactly right about the tremelo. I know I have the score to this somewhere, because I think those really are individual notes (maybe like Sibelius Sym5-3rd movt).

Last night, I exchanged the rapid-fires with a tremelo, and it just didn't sound right. I'm going to have to get the book out and see about that alternating one-note thing.

BTW, ANOTHER is up on the site, same link - tweaked a bit, but know tremelo fix yet.


SteveMitchell

[Rhap2]

Hi Steve:

A truly magnificent rendition of this piece. I can understand a few of the problems you are having, but you can correct them without too much trouble. What is important is that you a fine grasp of the GPO and that is evident with your SS Concerto.

By the way, when I downloaded your Mp3 and played it, the whole second movement played in 5m 21s on my Windows Media Player. It was downloaded as a 7 minute plus piece so it quite before the listed time. However, I did get the full movement playback. I have the music and checked it.

I didn't check the metronome speed of the movement which is rated at .132 for a dotted quarter beat, but the speed of the piece was FAST. What MM speed did you use and WHAT is your computer (CPU, RAM, sound card, sequencer etc?). Some of us like to know what successful folks use as a primary tool to host GPO.

Great work, Steve

John

[DPDAN]

It was weird here too, except my player said 2 minutes and 40 seconds, but I got it all. It's a great piece!

[SteveMitchell]

You folks are seeing timing issues, 'cause it's a variable-bit-rate MP3. It seems like someone is changing the baseline clock that the time is measured from - because they ARE - varying it that is.

The more high-frequency content, the higher bit-rate is needed for quality. VBR lets you scale the bit rate to the needs of the music rather than upload the entire piece at a fixed-bit-rate of 192kbps or 256kbps in which the files will be considerbly larger. Make sense?

This is what I use currently. (BTW, the work above is ALL GPO)

Mach 1:
GPO 1.2
Sonar XL 2.0
P4 3.2 GHz - HT
2048 GB Corsair LL Matched
Egosys WamiRack 24 4in-8out

fiber-linked to a

Mach 2:
GPO 1.2
GigaStudio 2.54 (for the time being)
P4 2.8 GHz HT
1536 MB Cosair LL Matched
Terratec - EWS 88MT

Steve

[Rhap2]

Steve:

Thanks for divulging your GPO environment. It's completely above my head, but it's impressive. It's got to be because your end-product was so well done.

And, thanks for solving what I considered to be mystery regarding total time for playback. That kind of went over my head too.

We welcome your musical and technical skills and want to hear more of your GPO projects. Well done, Steve.

John

[SteveMitchell]

Boy, I've had so MUCH fun today!

This is what I'm gonna call a "semi-final". I've taken all of your suggestions to heart (except tempo (: ), got rid of the "machine-gun" tremelo, and replaced it with "good" tremelo, recorded new with "dry" samples, narrowed the stereo field (to distance the listener from the orchestra), and set the recording venue to the Masonic Hall in Cleveland, an impulse that I favor. I admit that there is somewhat of a loss of detail with this move, but I think it sounds more real.

(BTW, the reverb you heard in the first samples was the stock reverb that comes with GPO, which is OK and good for mixing and auditions, I just prefer a real site impulse)

I've increased the bit-resolution to 24 (can't tell much diff) to see what happens. To see if I was successful, try listening with speakers rather than headphones. I'm dreaming of going for GPO "demo" quality, so feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Same Link: http://www.classicalmidiresource.com/site/test/sspianocont2-2.mp3



SteveMitchell

[FredProgGH]

The fixes in the strings help immensely. My only little nit-pick now would be that some spots still sound a little too perfectly quantized, perhaps, for those blinding speeds. A tiny bit of humanizing might be just the thing.

But don't get me wrong; this is one of the best things I've heard yet out of GPO!. You should be really proud!

[Hardy Heern]

The fixes in the strings help immensely. My only little nit-pick now would be that some spots still sound a little too perfectly quantized, perhaps, for those blinding speeds. A tiny bit of humanizing might be just the thing.

But don't get me wrong; this is one of the best things I've heard yet out of GPO!. You should be really proud!I totally agree. I would kick a few notes on and off the beats here and there in the piano and woodwind runs, and do the same with the velocities. No one's going to play runs like that and get them remotely even in timing or velocity. It's the perfect quantisation, more than any other factor, which causes the machine gun effect in my experience. The runs definitely have this problem. I wonder if they would appear to be slower too with some 'humanity'http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif !

The woodwind pairs? are also too linked. Kick off the notes so that the instrumentalists are not playing exactly the same timing, quantisation and velocities. Vary the note lengths.....anything to make the performance more human. Change the volume over the phrases, seperately and globally.

The speeds do seem ridiculous wrt my skills but there again some musicians are ridiculously good technicians! I do love this piece at this speed and now wouldn't be satisfied at any other!

I was so stunned by this composition...so bright, cheerful and jolly that I overlooked the areas where it could be improved. However I've listened to this more times now than I would care to admit to and no doubt it can still be improved even more. You have got rid of the annoying tremolo that has been mentioned which has greatly improved the piece. I think that even this could still have more variation in velocities and overall volume.....how much patience have you got?:)

As has also been said everyone's interpretation and preferences would be different.....variety is the spice of life.

Don't get me wrong either, this is great stuff....keep up the good work!

Frank

[DPDAN]

I just wish it was slower, in real life no piano has the ability to play repeated notes that fast. The piano part is not impossible for a pianist, but is impossible mechanically, the spots I am referring to are around 1:45 and 3:40.
It's getting better every post, these things are expected when a midi file was created using other sounds. This is not a complaint, but these little things keep this thing from being near perfect. In my most humble opinion.
DPDan

[SteveMitchell]

Hmmmm. I was using the Humanize CAL back in '99, and I swear I used it on this one. I'm seeing discrepancies wider than 230 ms, which is pretty sloppy, but I'll go over it tonight to confirm that I vary the start points some more. I'll probably mess it up some more, but if it gets too sloppy, I'll get me some new musicians - I tend to be a hardass as a conductor. (:

Regarding the tempo, I just heard this piece performed live (via broadcast) last week, and I'm pretty sure it was at the same or similar tempo that I use. I noticed this aspect particularly because it was so exciting.

I'm at work now so I cannot look at those time markers DPDan, you can bet I'll look tonight. Folks, thanks all for the feedback - it's invaluable. BTW, I'm working on a new piece, a big fugue for a BIG orchestra. I hope to have a rough cut in a week or so, working 2-3 hours a day.

Steve.

[sam ward]

A favorite and a beautiful rendering.

[SteveMitchell]

Hi Folks - Well, I went back and found my copy of Humanize.cal that I'd modified, and found that I HAD indeed run it on this piece. However, because of a lot of folks were concerned that the work sounded too close to quantized (EEEK! I've never quantized in my LIFE), I've increased the "slop" in note on timings by a bunch, producing some convincing start timing errors. I also insured that velocity values varied from note to note by quite a bit as well.

While this may sound like a lot, remember that this work is FAST, but I won't let it get sloppy.

It does indeed sound more human.

Thanks for your help.

Same Link: http://www.classicalmidiresource.com/site/test/sspianocont2-2.mp3

SteveMitchell

[gtbham]

Hi there
I'm new to this forum and to GPO. I bought GPO to try and improve the sounds I get with Finale 2005, another program I've recently acquired. I haven't yet fathomed how to make Garritan work with Finale, but I must say, I'm staggered by the results you are getting with the Saint-Saens Concerto (and also the Britten Fugue from the Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, which you've posted on the previous thread). Your success has inspired in me some confidence that I haven't entirely wasted my money on GPO!
However, I'm not very technically minded, and would ask you just to go over again in non-technical language what the starting point was for your piece. I believe you said that you used a recording by a pianist colleague, and then processed it in some way via midi into its present form. Were the orchestral parts played originally by real players, or did you create them from the score? Forgive my ignorance on this, but I really don't know how sequencers work - I'm just a humble musician!
Have you composed anything yourself? If so I'd be interested to hear it! Or is your interest solely in recreating the music of others in the most realistic and exciting way possible?


Hi Folks - Well, I went back and found my copy of Humanize.cal that I'd modified, and found that I HAD indeed run it on this piece. However, because of a lot of folks were concerned that the work sounded too close to quantized (EEEK! I've never quantized in my LIFE), I've increased the "slop" in note on timings by a bunch, producing some convincing start timing errors. I also insured that velocity values varied from note to note by quite a bit as well.

While this may sound like a lot, remember that this work is FAST, but I won't let it get sloppy.

It does indeed sound more human.

Thanks for your help.

Same Link: http://www.classicalmidiresource.com/site/test/sspianocont2-2.mp3

SteveMitchell

[DPDAN]

Hi Steve, much better really, but the clarinets volume accidentally dropped a few db in the middle of their last chord at the end.
Just want to let you know.

[SteveMitchell]

Hi DPDan - Yes, you're right on the nose. I realized that at this point, the piece was going rather steadily into a prolonged diminuendo, and previous iterations had the clarinets a little too loud at that spot.

GTBHAM - Thank you for your kind words. Heh, you're the first to actually comment on my "teaser". I was beginning to think that no one noticed. (:

I step-sequence a lot of my own work, but I also play-with/render other folks MIDI files, notably those of my friend Dr. David siu. Step-Sequencing is tedious, and takes awhile, especially if you're NOT a professional keyboard player. I can do phrases, rythmic structures, chords and the like.

BTW, those are musicians of a sort - they're the players who sat in front of the microphone while Gary recorded the notes as samples. There is so much for you to learn. Understand that MIDI is data, and data only -telling electronics what to do. In this case, the electronics is a sampler, responding with a given note, timbre, volume for a given data input. There's alot to know. I have a MIDI book at home that I bought from Guitar Center back in '94, and I'll post the title when I find it.

SteveMitchell

[Garritan]

Steve,

Very impressive! This is wonderful. The interpretation, the playing (especially piano), the balance and the mix - all superb!

This is an incredible accomplishment - especially for your first GPO demo. Thanks for posting this and I can't wait to hear more of your work.

Gary Garritan

[SteveMitchell]

Wow! I was just listening to this concerto on The Classical Station.org, and this guy played this movement even FASTER than my rendering- and don't even talk about what tempi he used on the 3rd movt.

Impressive!

Someone asked earlier in this thread if the speed I was using was possible. I gotta tell you that indeed it is, this recording I heard today blew me away. OOOOOHH, now I GOTTA do the 3rd movt!!

It was a pianist named Davidovitch with Nemi Jarvi conducting The Concertgebouw Orchestra. I'm going to buy it!

Stevemitchell

[beach]

Well, I have to say:
wonderful!!!
Just my congratulations. I never heard this concerto, but it is a pleasure to listen it here with your orchestration.
The piano sounds magic!!!

Great stuff man.
Best regards,
Roberto

[GerardR]

Wow! I was just listening to this concerto on The Classical Station.org, and this guy played this movement even FASTER than my rendering- and don't even talk about what tempi he used on the 3rd movt.

Impressive!

Someone asked earlier in this thread if the speed I was using was possible. I gotta tell you that indeed it is, this recording I heard today blew me away. OOOOOHH, now I GOTTA do the 3rd movt!!

It was a pianist named Davidovitch with Nemi Jarvi conducting The Concertgebouw Orchestra. I'm going to buy it!

Stevemitchell

Steve, I am impressed by your Saint-Saens rendering, it's really very realistic. About Davidovich: the guy who played the concert on the recording is not a guy but an old lady, Bella Davidovich, born in 1928. She really is the "Grande Dame" of the piano. Not so well known, she is considered one of the greatest pianists.

Gerard

[Styxx]

Wow! Wow! WoW WOW!!! I'm at the concert hall I believe. This is truly perfect! The piano is just breathtaking! More, Bravo! MORE! MORE!
I had to pop in my recordings of this piece and I have to tell you ... BRAVO!

How happy can you guys make me feel? This music just makes my day!!!!!!

[Hardy Heern]

Wow! I was just listening to this concerto on The Classical Station.org, and this guy played this movement even FASTER than my rendering- and don't even talk about what tempi he used on the 3rd movt.

Impressive!

Someone asked earlier in this thread if the speed I was using was possible. I gotta tell you that indeed it is, this recording I heard today blew me away. OOOOOHH, now I GOTTA do the 3rd movt!!

It was a pianist named Davidovitch with Nemi Jarvi conducting The Concertgebouw Orchestra. I'm going to buy it!

Stevemitchell


Wow Steve!!....that was sensationally and deservedly bumped!!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif It's interesting to read through this 'exumed' thread again......I note that DPDAN has emerged from commentator to master in no time at all.........http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Frank
PS......I'm going to listen again.....to hell with it!http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/character66.gif

[Styxx]

After listening to this fantastic work I would love to hear my favorite, "Aquarium" from Carnival of the Animals. Would love to hear someone tackle this. I feel it would be quite a challenge to capture such textures using GPO or any other orchestral library. The piano alone would be the utmost of challenge!
Anyone game?
Check this link out - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A//www.kunstderfuge.com/saintsaens.htm&ei=MHX7QsavG6i4aqD67Uc

[valhalx]

Just had a listen to your Saint-Saëns. I was dumbfounded. It is incredibly beautiful. Your grasp of GPO in such a short amount of time is commendable. Will be looking for more of your efforts.