Silly question about names of instruments

[trentpmcd]

I heard Bach’s Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 on the radio a few days ago and so, remembering how much I liked it, I decided to dig out the score. I have a quick question about instrument names. The string section is listed as follows:

Violino I di ripieno
Violino II di ripieno
Viola di ripieno
Violine di ripieno
Violoncello e Cembalo all’ unisono

OK, I know the top 3 and think that the “di ripieno” is pretty much there so somebody doesn’t mistakenly use their viol (I’m sure a very common mistake today). I’m also pretty sure the Violoncello is simply a cello. But what is the Violine? Or the Cembalo? In the No. 5 Concerto the Cembalo part is written as a keyboard part (now that I think about it, No. 5 is the harpsichord concerto with a great solo) and in the other concertos the Violine is in the continuo. So is the Violine a bass and Cembalo the harpsichord and Bach, for this concerto, wanted the harpsichord to be based on the cello instead of the bass? The Violine and Violoncello parts are very similar but not identical.

Anyway, in asking the question I seem to have answered it. Is this correct? Just want to be sure before I do a GPO of this (if I ever do - I'm working on 3 other things).

Thanks.

[jesshmusic]

Actually a cello is short for Violincello... ;)

As for the others.. maybe give the Google translator a shot, I would but I'm sleepy. If it is still unanswered, tomorrow, I'll figure it out... or ask my old composition teacher. :D

[DarwinKopp]

trent,

I think you've got it about right. I believe di ripieno means "of the full orchestra", which is to say, the part is not for a solo violin. For the double bass, I believe the term is spelled "violone", not "violine". Cembalo is Italian for harpsichord.

I don't have the score, but your description does appear to indicate that the cellos and harpsichord are to play from the same figured bass, though it is much more normal for the bass instrument(s) to share this part with the harpsichord. In fact, originally there often wasn't an actual bass or harpsichord part per se. There was simply a part called "continuo", which was a figured bass line that the double bass (and bassoon if available) and keyboard share. In this case, the keyboardist would actually improvise a part by interpreting the figurations for chords and suspensions over the bass line.

[Aziraphal]

Hmm, Violine might be plural of Violino (as in violin section).

and Fagotti is not what you think it is, you bad boy you :))

Matt

[Poolman]

DarwinKopp has got it right.

"Violine" is a misprint for "Violone" = Double Bass. It cannot be the plural of "Violino" which is "Violini".

[Theodor]

This is interesting . Harpsichord is also called Klavicembalo i think . Klavi for piano..... cembalo for ?
And Staccato is italian for detache :P ( just googled that )

[Francesco]

This is interesting . Harpsichord is also called Klavicembalo i think . Klavi for piano..... cembalo for ?
And Staccato is italian for detache :P ( just googled that )

Hi guys,
Hope this help from an italian musician (just me!)

"Violino I di ripieno" and all the other instruments with "ripieno" means that they all have to play toghether (Like the modern Violin/Viola section).
RIPIENO is synonymous of CONCERTO GROSSO where all the instruments play toghether, in opposite of CONCERTINO where we find only solo instruments.
VIOLINE doesn't exist...maybe you find a print error. Probably it is the VIOLONE which is between the VIOLA and the CELLO, played like a cello but smaller in dimensions with a baritonal range.
VIOLONCELLO is the italian word for CELLO, and CLAVICEMBALOis the Harpsichord.
The name CLAVICEMBALO is composed by the words KLAVI which means Keyboard, and CEMBALO which comes from CYMBALION which is and ancient indian instrument very similar to the dulcimer. In fact the harpsichord it's a cymbalion,but played with a keyboard instead of sticks.
Hope this help
Bye
Francesco

[galvedro]

Ole!

Thanks Francesco!

[FredProgGH]

And how about the brass section??

Cornet is trumpet, correct, not what we would think of as a cornet? And Trombe doesn't seem to be trombones- is it the french horn??

[Francesco]

And how about the brass section??

Cornet is trumpet, correct, not what we would think of as a cornet? And Trombe doesn't seem to be trombones- is it the french horn??


Cornet is not italian, however it is the flugelhorn.
TROMBE it's the plural of TROMBA which is the trumpet.
cheers
Francesco

[danpowers]

I think "Violone" is an obsolete term for Double Bass. I seem to remember that it originally referred to a contrabass viol, which was a big six-string instrument with frets. (I'll look it up later to be sure.)

[Styxx]

Nope, you guys have it all wrong. You see, there was this Italian baker who owned a bakery shop in Sicily back in the 1700's. He invented an inverted pizza he called the "Violone". Had nothing to do with sting instruments except that all the famous players would flock to buy this taste treat! Of cource, today we call it the "Calzone". :D

Oh God, here we go!......... :eek:

[jmc]

Speaking of Italian cuisine, be cautious when ordering the Piatti.

You might want to bring a change of pants.

[Francesco]

I think "Violone" is an obsolete term for Double Bass. I seem to remember that it originally referred to a contrabass viol, which was a big six-string instrument with frets. (I'll look it up later to be sure.)

This rare instrument has passed through many changes along one century.
The first one was build in 1550,and untill 1620 it was defined like a contrabass-viola. During this period the number of strings and its tune was considerably varied.
From 1620 to 1690 it was defined like a bass violin or bass viola,just used for accompainiment.
after 1690 it was called Contrabass Violin, but in effects it is something very-very similar to a Cello.
The VIOLONE CONTRABBASSO is like the VIOLONE but it's tuned one octave lower, as a double bass.

[trentpmcd]

Thanks all for the replies. di ripieno does mean section. For some reason I was thinking of the old term da braccio that was used to differentiate violins from viols (da gamba). There was one typo in my score on violine but it was correct (violone) everywhere else. The main typo was mine when I copied it. So, if I do this one, I’ll use bass for the violone.

Actually, for some odd reason, I remember most of the winds like tromba (or trombe for a section) for trumpet. and corno (or corni if plural) for horns.

And, just for Aziraphal, I’ll make sure I use my bassoon instead of my home-rolled cigarette for fagotto. Or were you thinking of something else? :)

[falcon1]

It wasn't common to use (double-)bass for the continuo part! Most often it was the following:

(Bassoon)
(Lute/guitar/harp)
Cello
Harpsichord/Organ

Well, I just thought I should correct this small historical slip. :D

[FredProgGH]

Cornet is not italian, however it is the flugelhorn.
TROMBE it's the plural of TROMBA which is the trumpet.
cheers
Francesco

Yikes, so I was completely lost on these. Thnaks for straightening that out. I do know faggoti, anyway. Well, I think. Is it Oboe or English Horn?? OK, I don't know it. Arrrggghhh!!

Is there a simple web reference somewhere for this stuff?? Besides you I mean :D

[falcon1]

I do know faggoti, anyway. Well, I think. Is it Oboe or English Horn?? OK, I don't know it. Arrrggghhh!!


Faggoti = Bassoon ;)

[Poolman]

Faggoti = Bassoon http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gifFagotti (not Faggoti) = BassoonS
Fagotto = Bassoon

[SeanHannifin]

Here's a nice resource with a bunch of instruments and their names in other languages:

http://www.library.yale.edu/cataloging/music/instname.htm

[FredProgGH]

Fagotti (not Faggoti) = BassoonS
Fagotto = Bassoon


OK, I quit before I wind up looking like a total idiot. :p I think I knew that at some point, but at some point it got muddled. (Shows you how much I interact with this sort of thing!!!)

[SeanHannifin]

There's nothing to be ashamed of! I still don't know what 'poco a poco' means . . . but don't tell me! I like to learn these things little by little . . .

[Styxx]

There's nothing to be ashamed of! I still don't know what 'poco a poco' means . . . but don't tell me! I like to learn these things little by little . . .

Good one Sean ... :D

[FredProgGH]

There's nothing to be ashamed of! I still don't know what 'poco a poco' means . . . but don't tell me! I like to learn these things little by little . . .


Oh someone gave me that as a direction a while back so I know it. And aparently you do too... :D

[trentpmcd]

I was just looking at a score and saw "poco ritard". Maybe I'm a little slow (or at least slowing a little in my old age), but it doesn't sound complentary.

[snorlax]

I was just looking at a score and saw "poco ritard". Maybe I'm a little slow (or at least slowing a little in my old age), but it doesn't sound complentary.
My favorite was one alleged tempo instruction I put in an arrangement for the trumpet section:

Moderately bright.

They didn't catch it until the third rehearsal.

QED.

Jim

[Bubbagump]

Holy mackeral, haven't you guys ever heard the song "Eh, Cumpare!"? That tells you all you need to know about the names of instruments in Italian. :)