Rare Instruments 2 and microtuning poll

[Nick Phoenix]

We are beta testing Rare 2 next week and will be releasing the library at NAMM. We are currently messing with creating alternate tuning presets for use in Kompakt, Kontakt. What are your favorite ethnic tunings? Also I am looking for more Arabic/Indian/Eastern tuning charts (in cents). Oh and we added the Oud.

[Nick Phoenix]

THE LIST:

Africa

3Ft FromTonFrom
5Ft FromTonFrom
African Dual Wooden Shakers
African Metal Shakers
Atsimevu
Axatse
Batas
Berkete
Dejembe Ensemble
Ekpiri
Ewe Drum Ensemble
Ewe Large Bombshell
Ewe Medium Bombshell
Gankokwe Large
Gyil
2 Kalimbas
Kidi
Kora
Large Udu
Log Drums
Ngoni

Americas And Australia

1890 Washburn Guitar
American Jaw Harp
Banjo
Berimbau
Cuban Percussion
Didjeridoo
Dobro
First Nations Cedar Flute
Mandolin
Pan Flute
Ukelele

Europe

Alpenhorn
Bag Pipe Ensemble
Bass Recorder
Frame Drum
Gadulka
Hardanger Fiddle
Highland Pipes
Hurdy Gurdy
Irish Low Whistle
Launeddas
Uilleann Pipes

Far East

Dizi
Erhu
Gamelan Ensemble
Gongs
Koto
Rag Dung
Shakuhachi
Shamisen
Taiko Drums
Vietnamese Jawharp

India

Bansuri
Baritone Violin (Electric)
Esraj
Sarangi
Sitar
Tablas
Tambura

Mid East & Turkish Empire

Armenian Duduk
Bulgarian Duduk
Mid East Fiddle
Mid East String Section
Ney Flute
Oud
Qandahar Dumbek
Santoor
Turkish Duduk
Yalli Tambur
Zourna


NOTE: The library is light on percussion because Stormdrum covers so much ground. All the percussion in Rare 2 is designed to complement the percussion in SD.

[esteso]

Nick! You added the Oud? Thank you very much. Just shows that sometimes it pays to ask for what you want.

That's fantastic, sign me up.

BTW, how do you deal with an instrument that has no frets and does all of those quarter tone embellishments etc.? It's not really like a classic violin which sticks to the western scales (for the most part) and doesn't get too far out of hand.

[clauder]

can we pre-order ?
(i m nervous, can you feel it)

[Theodor]

I think microtuning is a cool idea. Can't wait to hear the Sarangi .
How big is this library by the way ?

[fred Holmes]

RI2 is on my Christmas list for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fred

Here's a great list of microtunal tuning systems at

http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/

Most havevalues for
Note degree-Value in Cents-Nearest just interval-Difference in cents from just interval-Interval Name


Equal Tempered Scales
12 tone equal temperament
19 tone equal temperament
22 tone equal temperament
24 tone equal temperament
31 tone equal temperament
41 tone equal temperament
53 tone equal temperament
Bohlen-Pierce (equal version)
Wendy Carlos Alpha
Wendy Carlos Beta
Wendy Carlos Gamma
Just Intonation scales
Ben Johnston
Harry Partch
John Chalmers
Jon Catler 24 tone 13 limit JI
Just Intonation 12 tone
Lou Harrison 16 tone
Mayumi Reinhard 13 limit JI
Wendy Carlos Harmonic
Wendy Carlos Super Just
Well tempered scales
Kirnberger
Pythagorean
Vallotti-Young
Werkmeister III
Meantone scales
Meantone, 1/4 comma
Meantone, 1/5 comma
World Music scales
Africa
Bagpipe
China "Lu"
India "shruti"
Thailand

[Sean Beeson]

I think the list above my post covers most of the ones I was thinking of, minus the ones I have never heard of :)

[joshj]

Nick, what a great idea. How about the Bayati, Hijazi, and Sehgah. These are wonderful middle east modes! If it's alright I can email you a .pdf that goes into the tuning detail behind these scales. Let me know Nick and I'll send it to you.

[EricRichmond]

If you could get the gamelan tuned in both slendro and pelog, that would be AMAZING. I had figured I'd be doing that myself when I got the lib :)

-Eric

[Marcussen]

I have no clue what microtuning is, what so ever... could someone fill me in, or link me to a explanation for dummies?

[Bruce A. Richardson]

I have no clue what microtuning is, what so ever... could someone fill me in, or link me to a explanation for dummies?Most (almost all) sampled and synthesized sounds are based upon what are known as Equally Tempered scales. This is actually a compromised intonation, based upon the desire for ability to modulate to any key while playing a keyboard instrument, and to not have some keys sound radically out of tune against others...so called "wolf" notes.

However, the downside is that no interval is actually "perfect" in this system, and therefore, no true chordal consonances can exist. Fifths are always a beat or so off. Thirds are always sharp in a triad. Etc.

Even in Western orchestral music, a player will naturally tune fifths and thirds to their dead, or consonant, expression...and by this, making them conform to the natural overtone series. This is evidenced while playing by a difference tone (sometimes called a Tartini tone) which appears as a result of playing the interval. The main difference tone for the fifth will be an octave below the lower note...just as it would appear in the overtone series. Indeed, any interval played in its true, dead intonation will excite the entire overtone series below it, sympathetically, to some degree. The more in tune the interval becomes, the more prominently this "virtual" overtone series will be created in the air.

The main reason for what we call "microtonality" in modern terminology is to be able to reconstruct the keyboard scale so that we can play music in the intonation that its cultural history demands.

However, except for keyboard or other pitched percussive instruments, this keyboard-based microtonality is something of a compromise in and of itself. A brass player in an ensemble will tune a note differently depending upon its position in the chord. If I am playing an "E" in a chord that is C-E-G, I will play that note much flatter than if I am playing an E in a chord that is A-C#-E, because in the C major chord, my "E" is representing the fifth partial...but in the A major chord it is representing the fourth.

And so we come back to Equal Tempered scales as being the best compromise that has been offered to date for the "keyboarding" of western, twelve-tone octave based music.

I would encorage any person who is serious about composing to avail himself of this knowledge, and to take on some study in this area. There are great rewards to be had.

Even when composing in strictly western orchestral styles, it is invaluable to know how intervals are played to conform chords to the overtone series in an orchestra, versus how chords sound when played upon a piano. The entire concept of orchestral consonance rests upon playing OUT of ET, per chord, per voice. A trained player is constantly analyzing his part in real time, determining which voice of what chord his part represents, and is changing the tuning of each note to represent its role in the vertical structure. It's one of those things that University and Conservatory ensemble conductors literally beat into their students' heads. It is one of the hallmarks of a trained player, that he is never JUST playing a part, but is in full command of its musical function...AND that this is such a practiced and perfected art that he can do it in realtime without even thinking about it.

A trained orchestral player is constantly making these tuning decisions that go completely unnoticed to the untrained ear. The result, of course, is a part that sounds "right," and an ensemble that sounds distinctively consonant. It's one of the primary difficult compromises of sample-based orchestral productions, that this heightened consonance is difficult to achieve. In reality, intonation is probably the most complex part of ensemble playing--and one which must occur in real time against a constantly morphing "target." Since the majority of sample libraries are Equally Tempered, one would literally have to pitch shift--per note--to produce an overall ensemble consonance mimicking a full orchestral ensemble. But other scales would be no better in the long run, since they would be less able to modulate freely, and just as susceptible to the need to pitch shift notes individually dependent upon their harmonic role.

Most work that Wendy Carlos has done from "Beauty in the Beast" forward is composed in combinations of traditional intonation and her own "invented" scales (Hence the Carlos scales listed above).

However, in many cases, what you will see represented as specific microtonal scales in the NI products are not actually correct. In Konatakt, I believe one can specify a tuning for each separate MIDI note. In earlier NI products, one only specified the deviations from ET within octaves, which actually does not represent the true construction of those scales.

[Nick Phoenix]

Nick, what a great idea. How about the Bayati, Hijazi, and Sehgah. These are wonderful middle east modes! If it's alright I can email you a .pdf that goes into the tuning detail behind these scales. Let me know Nick and I'll send it to you.

bunschel@aol.com Thanks!

[Bruce A. Richardson]

Obviously, I think microtuning is a great feature, if that was not clear in my wordy reply!!

[Herman Witkam]

How about Weckmeister II and IV, and Zarlino? :D

[pdNH]

Anyone interested in microtuning should be familiar with the Scala project. Their library has several thousand scales available. Some samplers can read the Scala definition files directly. See the Scala home page at http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

[XanaX]

Nick, this site features a fairly lengthy list of Arabic scales (maqamat), as well as other interesting information:


http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamindex.html


Google "maqam" for more.

[thesoundsmith]

I have to add my vote for the Indian sruti (22 note) scale, That would be invaluable to me.

Indian classical players do not use these notes all at once (fortunately) and it would be nice to have a way to organize the scales without having to locate a Harry Partch keyboard.

I'll be looking forward to seeing how you handle the mappings on all these scales. Quite a task.

That could be done with a real-time transposition template, like a software MEP4, I would think.

[Pingu]

I'd like to add my vote for tuning the Gamelan in both Slendro and Pelog - by which I mean the common 7 note Pelog, and not the 5 note Pelog of Gamelan Semar Pegulingan. But heck, if you could manage the 5 note Pelog, and maybe the 4 note tuning of Gamelan Anklung as well then that would be great.

[Theodor]

Obviously, I think microtuning is a great feature, if that was not clear in my wordy reply!!

Wordy but not blabbery at all ! :)
Nice lesson Bruce, Thanks ( <---------- Get this guy to help with the microtuning :P )

[Marcussen]

Thanks for the reply bruce...

So.. what are you planning? To use both chromatic western scale, and ethnic scales... or just one of them?

[brilohead]

I would vote for the scales that correspond with the instruments listed. This is a great idea and I can't wait!

Christiaan

[Marcussen]

Well... if its one or the other I would definately chose having a regular piano scale.

I find the few samples I have which leave out keys quite limiting :(

Please dont only do that

[Theodor]

Hey Marcussen , i don't think they'll leave samples out . Microtuning is more like small tunings for each key . So instead of A440 , the sample might be tuned at A447 instead .

[Herman Witkam]

Another thing, an A 440 pitch in Indonesia will sound different than an A 440 pitch in a lower temperature climates, because the speed of sound is temperature related. How about that :D

Christian: Some instruments can't play certain notes, for example because there is no hole or position that gives that note. Don't forget limiting yourself is part of composing. I'd recommend different patches for non-pitched leaving notes out and pitched chromatic versions.

Besides that I still want to vote for a GS3 version ;)

[janila]

Don't forget limiting yourself is part of composing. I'd recommend different patches for non-pitched leaving notes out and pitched chromatic versions.I agree. Usually I want to be able to trust that my compositions made with samples can be played with the real instruments. In some cases it is a good thing if a sample library can be used like a synthesizer to create some effects that are impossible to play with the actual instruments. Different patches for real limitations/tunings and chromatic ranges would be nice.

[Marcussen]

I agree. Usually I want to be able to trust that my compositions made with samples can be played with the real instruments. Well first and foremost I want whats in my head to be heard in my speakers. If i'm making a tune with a bagpipe and then suddenly the note I want does not exist on real bagpipes - I tend to get annoyed. :)

[janila]

Which is why it is a good idea to include both versions. ;)

[Pingu]

Any hint of pricing on this one yet? I have a very understanding wife, who is now used to the fact that samples come above food and utilities in the spending priorities, but I do have to start telling her about specific spends some time in advance. That way, when it does arrive, it's something I've been waiting patiently for - and my martyrdom is usually rewarded - as opposed to something that's suddenly cropped up that I will have to start waiting for.

PLEASE!!!!

[Marcussen]

LOL

Cost will be $995 if I recall correctly

[brilohead]

Christian: Some instruments can't play certain notes, for example because there is no hole or position that gives that note. Don't forget limiting yourself is part of composing. I'd recommend different patches for non-pitched leaving notes out and pitched chromatic versions.


Yes, I often use limited scales (pentatonic, whole tone, octatonic) as a way of limiting myself. It would be interesting to have limited scales (or extra notes with the sitar).

Christiaan

[Nigel W]

"The library is light on percussion because Stormdrum covers so much ground. All the percussion in Rare 2 is designed to complement the percussion in SD."

Thank heaven. I've got drums coming out of my ears, in every style and variation, but well-sampled authentic instruments are still hard to find outside rock-pop & classical.

NIgel