GDC '05....worth it?

[locash]

Hello,
wondering if any of you guys have been to the game developers conference before. this year its in san fran. it looks like they have a pretty cool track for audio. I compose for television and other media but have been a gamer all my life and would love (like many out there) to crack the game industry.
-would this be a good chance to meet decision makers?
-or is this more for helping those already doing it?
-are there networking opportunities?

would love to hear from someone who has gone....(from an audio perspective). thanks.

Mitch

[dwdonehoo]

>wondering if any of you guys have been to the game developers conference before.

I have worked for the GDC the last 3 years, been to the last four and was a speaker at the last one.

>-would this be a good chance to meet decision makers?

No. If you already know them, the GDC would be a good time to meet them all face to face. Otherwise, there is no way to reliably make contact with the ones who count, other than by chance and/or just mixing around.

>-or is this more for helping those already doing it?

See above.

-are there networking opportunities?

G.A.N.G. usually has a meeting and/or awards meets, so it is a good time to meet your peers.

>...to hear from someone who has gone....(from an audio perspective).

The Audio sessions can be cool and increases your chance of meeting various flavors of people.

While the game industry constantly advertises for programming, art, animation, AI, texturing (etc...) talent, they never advertise for music talent (except audio directors and sound designers sometimes). The most successful in music have talent for both music and business, and frankly, some were just lucky to be in the right place in the right time. Most of the most successful worked for a major developer or publisher at one time in the past, and that is still one of the best ways to break in. Similar to indi films, another route is to work for some MODers or indi game builders, and hope for the best. Like most of the music industry, in games, its still who you know that matters.

[TLarkin]

I've also been to almost every GDC. I occasionally miss one due to deadlines as I might this year. Doyle is right in that it's mostly re-connecting with people that you already know. That's what I try to do. I enjoy the audio track, and also occasionally speak on a panel. There's almost always something that I take away from the presentations that I choose to attend.
Also like Doyle mentioned as far as breaking into the industry, I was in the right place at the right time. I have worked in house and freelance, usually at the same time as I am now. And even though I've been working steady doing game music and sound for well over 10 years, it's still a struggle getting the freelance work lined up all the time. It's feast or famine, and fortunately the in house Audio Director job keeps the famine under control. However I enjoy the freelance work way too much to give it up. Keeps my perspective on my regular work at Cyan fresh and I believe helps out in the long run.
GDC can be expensive, but I think it's something you should attend to get a feel for the industry that you're considering.
Have fun, and maybe I'll see you there this year.
Tim

[midphase]

Well, Ok, so what do you guys think is the best way to get your reel into the hands of developers?

I thought that the whole idea of GDC was that you go there, shake hands and hand out your stuff from booth to booth.

Now you both say this is not the case....so do you recommend cold calling developers instead?

I mean if GDC is not a good place to meet industry people, E3 definitely is not. GANG (with all due respect) is pretty useless to get you work, unless you are already established.

There are way too many seminars and classes that I have attended that preach that the gaming industry is in huge expansion, and that there is a strong need for new blood, and many opportunities, and blah blah blah. The reality appears to be quite different, I mean for all the propaganda, I have yet to find a developer who has an open-door policy to accepting demo reels, and most of them won't talk to you if you don't have experience with at least 2 shipping titles!!!

I am prepping myself to hit GDC hard as a good opportunity to have people's attention as I sell my services in person. Now you guys tell me that this is not the case? WTF? Are you pulling my leg or are you simply trying to discourage new competition on the floor this year?

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but on the TV and advertisement front I am working for top clients all the time, but on the videogame front I can't even get these guys to return my repeated calls (or e-mails)!

Meanwhile, a buddy of mine is composing for a Sony top tier title this year just because he happened to casually meet a developer while doing laundry at the same time??? You gotta be kidding me!

[dwdonehoo]

"Meanwhile, a buddy of mine is composing for a Sony top tier title this year just because he happened to casually meet a developer while doing laundry at the same time??? You gotta be kidding me!"

Like I said above....

At GDC, the booths are mostly companies selling products and services TO the developers. At E3, it is the developers in the booths and they are selling to everybody else (mostly publishers) (plus those selling to developers). There is a small area at GDC called a "job Fair" where you might be able to drop a few demos, but mostly they are there to find programmers, texture/artists, designers, producers, and the like.

Another block for some is that there are not many composers that are technical enough to deal with interactive music. Games != Movies.

The game industry may be wide open, but it is still hard as heck finding and identifying the principals. And like the movie industry, the same few people keep getting the big jobs. But hey, begging your pardon, you know that song about the rose garden....

[midphase]

Another block for some is that there are not many composers that are technical enough to deal with interactive music. Games != Movies.

The game industry may be wide open, but it is still hard as heck finding and identifying the principals. And like the movie industry, the same few people keep getting the big jobs. But hey, begging your pardon, you know that song about the rose garden....


Thank you for that gem of a condescending response Doyle!

Let me see if someone here might be willing to share some insight (I totally understand if nobody does):

If E3, GDC, and other conventions are not the right place for composers (who are up to speed with game technology needs, but don't have title experience) to get in contact with developers, what is the best way to initiate talks with a developer?

A. Cold call developers and try to get a name and address that you can send your promo to?

B. Do a bunch of freebee Mod's in hopes that someday the guys that you helped will help you back?

C. Show up at Bob Rice's doorstep with a box of doughnuts and hope he will agree to represent you?

D. Keep using your building's laundromat in the hope that one of these days you might run into one of Sony's execs?

[dwdonehoo]

>Thank you for that gem of a condescending response Doyle!

Geez. Get a grip Kays. There was nothing at all condescending about what I said. As a matter of fact, I was giving all the no-bs 411 on this. I could candy coat the information, but there are certain rough truths about this business as many here on this BBS well know about the tv and movie business.

One thing I found out early on is that most composers will trade music technical information, but when it comes to job how-to's, just about all are tight lipped about info (except in the most general info). The best information I ever got outside my own efforts was the book "Game Audio" by Aaron Marks. But getting to the producers and Audio Directors, a lot of it is all voodoo and luck for the most part. I have sent out hundreds of thousands of emails, hundreds of demos and made as many calls with a return of about 1% (and I have been told by insiders I have had great suceess as compared to most). Only recently have I felt I have established some decent relationships and understandings. If there is a short-cut, and easy way to do all this, I would like to hear about it.

[midphase]

There was nothing at all condescending about what I said. As a matter of fact, I was giving all the no-bs 411 on this.


In that case, sorry if I misunderstood your tone. I am well aware of the differences between scoring for video and the specific challenges and solutions available to scoring for games (perhaps I took your comments a bit too personally). Oddly enough, I know several big game composers in the industry (you probably know who I'm talking about) who could not care less about videogames and who have never touched a console in their life.

My sense of frustration comes from the overhyped message that game developers are hurting for good composers and are standing by with arms wide open to take a listen to what you have to offer. I have heard this redderick way to many times from opportunistic lecturers "If you come to my expensive seminar, I will disclose the secrets to you, blah blah blah."
The message being sent is that this industry is growing at such a fast rate, that the supply of talent can't keep up with the demand.

From my point of view, the same dozen or so guys are doing most of the big stuff, and developers are very closed to the idea of a newcomer scoring their game without having had previous experience in the field.

In a very bizarre sort of way, I have found the TV and film industry much more welcoming of fresh new faces (with fresh new ideas) than the gaming industry.

I hope that my assessment of the situation is incorrect, but your comments and some of the other things that I am reading would seem to indicate that you are right on target.

[dwdonehoo]

>I am well aware of the differences between scoring for video and the specific challenges and solutions available to scoring for games.For the general audience reading this: And a fair share of games requires experience with XACT and other similar interactive audio tools. Other skills include being able to backscore things the user will hear hundreds of times. There are other differences…


>Oddly enough, I know several big game composers in the industry (you probably know who I'm talking about) who could not care less about videogames and who have never touched a console in their life.And more and more producers want to hear a virtual version of something before they commit to a live recording (or just want virtual stuff), and there are many composers out there who do not have the computer and virtual (orchestra) skills to deliver. Some composers are very trusted and so established they do not need to have computer skills, but they are dying breed. Like it or not, there is a profound change going on…


>My sense of frustration comes from the overhyped message that game developers are hurting for good composers and are standing by with arms wide open to take a listen to what you have to offer…. The message being sent is that this industry is growing at such a fast rate, that the supply of talent can't keep up with the demand.I have heard a prediction is there would be over 3000 games published this year. Actually, this sort of torks me off because why don't I know who all these people are and who among them is in charge of audio?! It is frustrating.


>From my point of view, the same dozen or so guys are doing most of the big stuff, and developers are very closed to the idea of a newcomer scoring their game without having had previous experience in the field.It is the same old story in every business: circular logic. You can't get a job without experience, and you cannot get experience (credits) without the jobs. However, stubborn pig-headed patience will eventually pay off if the talent is there. It's why, before you become established, you have to spend so much time dealing with business (and the business of getting business).


>In a very bizarre sort of way, I have found the TV and film industry much more welcoming of fresh new faces (with fresh new ideas) than the gaming industry.Kays: I read through your credits a few days ago, and I would say you are more established in TV and Film, so therefore more comfortable with it. I bet that was not always the case. I am sure you will find ways to make headway in the game industry if that is what you want to pursue.

[midphase]

Kays: I read through your credits a few days ago, and I would say you are more established in TV and Film, so therefore more comfortable with it. I bet that was not always the case. I am sure you will find ways to make headway in the game industry if that is what you want to pursue.



Thank you Doyle, I appreciate your vote of confidence. I am very passionate about games, in a way I have always had a strong desire to score for games. In my high school years, I was very involved with programming and development of my own text adventure games (does anyone remember those?). At the time, the technology was not existant for music in games and generally the task fell on some programmer who wanted to take on the annoying task of dealing with putting in some bleeps and bloops in the game. In the mid-90's I became once again actively involved with game development and scored a few titles for the Atari Jaguar console (boy....what a flop!). In those days, composing for games was still not a very rewarding experience having to deal with a limited set of tools and sounds. Then a few years passed and got more and more work in the TV field so that's where I chose to focus my carreer. Now, ten years later, all of a sudden I feel like I missed the boat. I've been waiting most of my life for gaming tachnology to get to a level where it would be an exciting and rewarding experience to be involved in, and now that it's finally here, I feel like I can't get in.

It's a very odd feeling, like standing in line for a looong time to go see a show, only to realize that once I get to the door I forgot to buy my ticket!

Nonetheless, I am optimistic about the future, things are getting better and I don't have any doubt about being able to crack this challenge as well.

In the TV and film world, it is quite common get wind of new productions in the works or for sollicitations for demos by companies. The gaming industry seems to be so secretive and generally unpredictable that just trying to obtain any information about the what and who's seems to be an incredibly arduous task.

Ok, I think I rambled on too long......see you at GDC05!

[undertone]

I work in the game industry doing music and SFX for a small independant game company. I have to agree that many people with permanent positions in game companies as composers and sound designers have gotten in by luck and connections; however most who stay do so because they are talented (BS does walk). Here's a few thoughts on the thread:

-Sound is usually the LAST thing on the developer's mind. The manpower dedicated to graphics far outweighs the manpower required for audio.

-I've been surprised to find that sound can also be the last thing on a publisher's mind as well.

-The Game industry has moved from a garage to a corporate structure in about 10 years. The industry is still learning to walk, and figuratively so are many of the people in charge.

-Music, sound effects and voice overs are primary candidates for outsourcing. As a result, there are many independent audio production houses with a number of associated composers and sound designers. They hunt down contracts and distribute work to their associates.

-The Audio Director is generally far more valued than any composer or sound designer. Management is more important in a corporate structure. In smaller companies, sound often gets handled by a junior programmer; who is he going to call for music and sfx? Credits for game audio production are often buried within the game code, and the booklets don't always list audio credits. It's just plain hard sometimes to know who to send a demo to.

-Since orchestral scores have become an accepted style in games in the last few years, many well known film and televisions composers are looking to break into the game industry. Many of these have agents and reps doing the leg-work for them.

-Self-interest and secrecy cohabitate with the sense of community the industry is trying to establish. Associations like the IGDA and GANG are at once attempts to bring a number of like-minded professionals together for their mutual support, but at the same time everyone is wary of revealing what professional secrets give them an edge. But is this truly any different than in any other industry?

Sorry for the random nature of the post. Best of luck,

u

[MDesigner]

midphase,

I just wanted to chime in with my two cents. First off, I will have to disagree with G.A.N.G. being useless as far as landing gigs or getting established. Were it not for G.A.N.G., I would not have gotten the chance to work on Maximo vs Army of Zin, and if it weren't for Maximo (and other factors, of course), I wouldn't be putting my bid in this week for a major gig. But before any of that (and before G.A.N.G.), I was writing music for anything I could... game mods, small miscellaneous projects, etc. Anything to get my name out there. Whether that helped or not, I'm not sure.

Now, as far as networking at GDC and all that... I can't really challenge Doyle's statements, since he has a lot more experience with that than I do, but having spoken with some other composers, I will say that at least two or three other people I've talked to say that GDC *IS* a good place to meet new people and to land a gig. You don't have to know someone previously to be able to reap the benefits of GDC, I don't think. Make your presence known. Wear a nametag, and have a backpack full of demo CDs. I'll be attending GDC in 2005 and it'll be my first time, so I'm not gonna get my hopes up about anything, but I'll do my best. Use your existing connections to give you an advantage. If you see a booth for a company that your pal Franko worked for, for instance, approach them and mention his name... "yeah, you know him? we've worked together before. here's my demo.." Any connection to someone they already know or have worked with will probably give you a better chance of at least talking to them again after GDC. Mind you, this is just pure speculation on my part. :) But I imagine this would be effective.

Outside GDC, I've found that sending out demo CDs is near useless. The reason is because no one is looking for a composer until the time is right. There might be just a small window of time where they're looking for a composer. If you send out a demo CD and they receive it when they don't need anyone, it's going to wind up in a box full of other CDs, and you will be lucky if they dig it up one day when they need a composer. I would venture a guess that referrals take precedence over demo CDs. So if VU Games is publishing a title from XYZ Developer, and VU is on the hunt for a composer, and someone at XYZ knows someone who would be great for the project, XYZ will let VU know about it, and hook them up with the composer. It's all about who you know and who knows you, and people referring each other, or hiring help. Sometimes a composer is totally tied up with a project, and another one comes along.. so he/she may pass that off to a colleague. And I think all this happens before a company even looks through the bottomless demo CD box.

Take this with a teaspoon of salt. I'm still a bit of a newbie. :)

[Scott Cairns]

Midphases quote about his buddy scoring a game title from doing laundry with someone has something to learn from really...

Stories like that are why you should go to these things or anything really. Chance encounters. I just got back from our Australian GDC. I sat next to two tv producers at the awards night and they told me they got to do a "making of" production for a major game title cause they bumped into a guy on a connecting flight out of New Zealand of all places. Then Vivendi Universal wanted one, then EA Games...

As for me... I went to a one day talk a few months ago on music for games or some such thing. It was pretty boring, low level stuff, lots of students. But, I also got to meet the two sound designers for the upcoming Stargate SG1 title. To cut a very long story short, Im now the composer for Stargate SG1.

Now what would've happened if I thought going to that one day seminar was a waste of time?

[midphase]

midphase,

I just wanted to chime in with my two cents. First off, I will have to disagree with G.A.N.G. being useless as far as landing gigs or getting established. Were it not for G.A.N.G., I would not have gotten the chance to work on Maximo vs Army of Zin


Sam, you entered a contest put on by G.A.N.G., you won, Tommy let you score some music for Maximo as a result. You are the exception and not the norm. While I do think that there are certain things that G.A.N.G. is useful for, I don't think finding work is one of them (at least for the majority of members) and I think that it's important that people know that before they shell out some hard-earned cash under false hopes.

For everything else, you give some good advice and bring up some very valid points, and given the quality of your work I have no doubts that you will go far in the gaming biz.

[MDesigner]

Sam, you entered a contest put on by G.A.N.G., you won, Tommy let you score some music for Maximo as a result. You are the exception and not the norm. While I do think that there are certain things that G.A.N.G. is useful for, I don't think finding work is one of them (at least for the majority of members) and I think that it's important that people know that before they shell out some hard-earned cash under false hopes.

True. I wouldn't rely on G.A.N.G. for work, but I'm sure there will be more contests.. and with each contest winner comes more exposure for that person, which definitely never hurts. It may or may not lead to real-world work. It certainly doesn't hurt to try.



For everything else, you give some good advice and bring up some very valid points, and given the quality of your work I have no doubts that you will go far in the gaming biz.

Why thank you, sir. :)

[locash]

wow...nice work keeping this post going.

great info. Im from Calgary, AB Canada and am very interested in coming to SF for the GDC. However like most it will be quite an investment. From looking at the GDC site it would seem like a great place to meet and hand out demos. So i did feel a bit discouraged after dwdonehoo said it wouldnt be the best place for that.
But now reading others thoughts I think it might be worth the investement.
What i have found getting contracts for TV and other media is that (like you guys have said) is all about networking, developing relationships and meeting. you cant develop relationships without first meeting someone so thats what i hope to get out of the GDC.
I feel midphase's pain as you see some (i mean a few) of these guys with limited if any talent getting these hookups because of random acts....or cuz theyre brother is homies with someone important and he just bought acid and a loop cd.

If anyone else would like to hook up down there and grab a coffee and share networking stories that would be real cool. I would love to meet some of you guys on the board. (i dont post much but read lots) :)

Mitch

[MDesigner]

From looking at the GDC site it would seem like a great place to meet and hand out demos. So i did feel a bit discouraged after dwdonehoo said it wouldnt be the best place for that.

I'm probably a bit out of line by saying this, especially since I've never been to GDC, but I'd have to strongly disagree with the statement that GDC is not the best place to hand out biz cards and demos. Well, it may not be the best place, but it I believe it to be a great place at least. Everyone I've ever talked to who's been there says it IS a good place to network and increase your chances of landing work. You just have to have the right approach, whatever that may be.

But to clarify, I don't think Doyle is necessarily saying that GDC is not a good place to hand out demos. He said it's not a good way to "reliably make contact with the ones who count, other than by chance and/or just mixing around." He's probably right. However, I'm sure that if everyone wears nametags/badges, and you know the names of the players in the industry, you should be able to at least get your demo & name across to them and chat a bit, and that certainly helps.

I dunno, I'm just speculating. I'll post my experience here after I make my first attendance next March.

[sonicthreadz]

Thought I'd put in my two cents (it's mostly just an excuse to post on NS because it looks like there's some cool people on here. *grin*)

I'm with you guys in understanding how frustrating this industry is to get into. I just recently broke in myself and am still on the tough road (our company is brand new and we're just barely getting into an office.) Some things that helped me were:

1 - Doing free work to build a resume.

I know some people might frown on this, but it really is a key factor in how I got my first real job. Not only do you get the experience and resume-building from working on indy stuff, but you can actually meet some cool people who may be the next up-and-coming small developer. I got hooked up with my current job by working with a guy on a mod project. The mod never got finished, but he mentioned me to someone who was starting a new studio and the rest is history. This leads me to point number two.

2 - Look for new and/or smaller developers and give them a call.

It's really hard to get work from Atari, Microsoft, Nintendo, and the other big publishers and developers on the block. They are the best . . . so they contract audio from the best. Look for smaller studios and promising new studios that are starting up, because unless they have an audio guy already, they will be more apt to talk to you.

3 - Make friends . . . don't beg for work.

Personally I think the reason why email-marketing yourself to developers and publishers doesn't work that well is because you're not really connecting with the person on the computer at the other end. People hire people they trust, and people they like. That's never going to change, in any type of business. Expecting to get hired based on talent alone is a fantasy. There are just too many really talented people, literally thousands of people, who want the same job you do. When you go to GDC, go there to meet people and make an impression as a PERSON, not as a walking "demo-CD ATM machine." The words "can I have a job" are a real turnoff to someone you're just meeting, no matter how they're phrased. Be remembered as a smart, nice guy who "happens to do audio" instead of one of the drones who wants a job.

Anyways . . . I'm really still a newbie like Sam in the scope of things, but I thought I'd share a bit of what worked for me.

Good luck!

[MDesigner]

Be remembered as a smart, nice guy who "happens to do audio" instead of one of the drones who wants a job.


This approach is good, but may not work for more established people. Imagine it:

GDC booth guy: "Holy crap, it's Danny Elfman!!"
Danny: "Oh hey guys. <brief conversation here> By the way, did I mention I write music?"

:)

[sonicthreadz]

LOL good point Sam. When we're all famous we'll have to keep that in mind when we go to GDC '25.

[dwdonehoo]

Nice to see so many responding to this, as well as seeing new members joining because of it.:) And thank you Sam for clarifying what I said. I was not trying to discourage anyone from going to the GDC (particularly the Audio Track where I lectured last year). I just don't want anybody getting any false expectations. The audio track can be as much as $675 alone, and then there is travel, then room and board in San Francisco no less. I don't know about you, but I don't have a lot of cash to sling around. I do not want to over-sell the GDC and have someone come back and say "I laughed, I cried, I blew over $1000! Doyle, you chump! It was WAY not worth it!!" If you go, go for the audio track, the networking, to get a feel for the game industry, to meet new and old friend, to drop a few demos at the Job Fair and the possibility of meeting key players. Then you will get your money's worth.

[Eric Doggett]

Let me toss in my thoughts, having been 3 times now.

You go. You think you will meet companies at the 'job fair' needing people. You approach. You ask to speak to someone - anyone - beyond the semi-good looking booth babes. Sorry. Ok, well I am Joe Composer, and I'd like to give you a demo cd. That's nice. Put it in the GDC Composer box. Hey - look in there - there are already 15 cd's!! (Secret cd burning session held at the close of GDC).

Sorry to be sarcastic :) but that's the jist of it - unless you meet people in the sessions and establish relationships that way.

:) :) :) Just some funny food for thought :)

[midphase]

Ok,

So to recap:

GDC - useless unless you happen to know someone already.

Sending demo CD's to developers - useless unless you send it at exactly the right time.

Agents - impossible to get one unless already established with previous game experience.

GANG - useless to get a job, but great for eating burgers at Tommy's place! :D

On Line forums and job boards like Gamasutra and IGDA - useless for composers, great for programmers, 3d graphic artists and just about anyone else (some possible work for sound designers, but generally if you don't have at least 3 years of working experience, don't bother applying).

Startup indie game developers - some potential there, but generally no pay and no guarantee of future work.

Did I miss something?


Well, I hope at least we can all meet at GDC05, get royally drunk and sing some karaoke together!
:rolleyes:

[Scott Cairns]

Gee, you make it sound so bleak Kays. :)

Like I said, you gotta get out there and meet people, I know its time consuming and expensive, but sooner or later you'll meet that one person that will be your entry into the gaming arena. After that.. who knows?

[midphase]

Gee, you make it sound so bleak Kays

What's so bleak about Karaoke???

[cmrick]

1. GDC is one of the few places where you can just walk up to people, introduce yourself, and know you're talking to SOMEBODY in the game industry. That somebody might know somebody...

2. The gig I just wrapped came DIRECTLY from talking to a stranger in an elevator at the GDC.

3. It is possible to meet people in the halls of GDC without even buying a pass. I don't know now that it's at a new venue, but there were plenty of free meeting places in San Jose.

4. Don't think of the GDC as a place to sell, think of it as a place to meet face to face. Meet people, get their card, establish rapport beside "Hi, I compose music, hire me please."

5. Target people you want to meet at the GDC. Do a little research before you go.

6. I know of three people who have gotten jobs as a direct result of being a GANG member. It's certainly not a magic job bullet, but let's be realistic, there are no magic bullets.

7. It is really, really, really hard to land gigs and continue to land gigs in the game industry. That's a fact I've experienced myself and heard from just about everyone I know in the industry. You've gotta want it.

[Scott Cairns]

The gig I just wrapped came DIRECTLY from talking to a stranger in an elevator at the GDC.
Thank you Chris, exactly what I've been trying to say! :cool:


Think positive people!! ;)

[undertone]

I've never been to the GDC, but I'm considering going this year. I have 2 questions:

1. To those that have been to it in the last few years: does the Audio track looks as interesting this year as it's been in the last few years?

2. Is it scheduled so you can attend everything in the Audio track, or do you have to pick some and miss out on others?

Thanks!

u

[MDesigner]

Yeah, what exactly is the "audio track"? A particular session or conference? What's it called? When/where is it? I'm springing for the audio pass BTW.

[midphase]

http://www.cmpevents.com/GD05/a.asp?option=C&V=1&SB=4&AdS=0&scTKs=285&scFMTs=0&GetDaysC=0&SPids=0&CP1=0&scTKs1=0&scFMTs1=0&GetDaysC1=0



BTW, just to clarify myself...I'm going to GDC, I don't think it'll be a waste of time or money (granted I have a place to stay with a friend, flying from LA is relatively cheap, and I'm probably just be doing the regular pass), I am not discouraged from the game industry....but I do find it actually a lot harder to get in than the TV and film industry especially because there is no established infrastructure to connect the right people together. Also, due to the relatively relaxed nature of game deadlines, it's hard to pick up overflow work from fellow composers.

[dwdonehoo]

I've never been to the GDC, but I'm considering going this year. I have 2 questions:
1. To those that have been to it in the last few years: does the Audio track looks as interesting this year as it's been in the last few years? Well, I am not lecturing this year, so how interesting could it be? http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif


2. Is it scheduled so you can attend everything in the Audio track, or do you have to pick some and miss out on others? Yes, for some audio things, you will have to make some choices. Still, you can get "The Proceedings" CD and catch what you missed.


I am not sure if I will be working for the GDC this year: and I may just show up every day and hang out, maybe get the expo pass. We will see. For the most part, the expo pass is enough (for me anyway), and the Audio Pass is the next best thing. The G.A.N.G. awards is a free entry, and there is a lot of places to hang out, on site, and off site. A lot of developers will be hanging out at the Crazy Horse. http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif Good luck getting their attention there!



Well, I hope at least we can all meet at GDC05, get royally drunk and sing some karaoke together! -KAYS You see? Now there is something to look forward to.;)

[Ed Lima]

Let me jump in on this issue of the perceived values in partaking of the GDC and/or GANG if I may. My last gig, Doom3, I got as a direct result of being a member of GANG. How? Well, Dave Chan, formerly of BioWare, reposted id's help wanted ad on GANG's job forum, which is where I saw it. The game I worked on before that, 007 Nightfire, I got as a direct result of attending the 2001 GDC. I befriended Ken Felton, Audio Director at EA Redwood Shores, who solely based on our five-minute conversation, referred me to the producer on that game. And Ken Felton is a guy who I got back in contact with just last month and bothered with some heavy career development questions. He was very kind and generous with his time. That's the kind of relationships you make through these two vehicles, people.

So is getting into game audio hard? Are the odds stacked against you? Certainly. But if you want to get into ANY field, how could you possibly expect to get anywhere without some old-fashioned networking? Worth it? Goodness yes!

My two cents. Thank you for reading. Love and respect to all you guys. Now go to GDC and join GANG.

[MDesigner]

Where is Dave Chan these days? And who replaced him at BioWare??

[Ed Lima]

I think Dave Chan is starting his own contract audio company. He's on the GANG boards now and again. As for Bioware, they've got an internal sound team.

[IOComposer]

Hey dudes.
After reading this thread, now I see why Kays got so aggressive with me on that thread about "Career advice". lol! Kays...I see your frustration bro and I totally empathize with you. I think it's really ironic to see all of this interest in working in games. I was in the same boat for years, only the reverse. Finding game work in the early 90's was easy but it was totally disrespected by the music community at large. I did one of the very first hi resolution orchestral scores for a game called The Journeyman Project 3 back in 1994. It was a very hyped game (Apple even used it in their advertisements for Macintosh), it was reviewed in Time, Newsweek, etc. all with accolades on the music. I thought I was becoming a real composer for a while there. Then when I tried to use that as some credibility for breaking into the film biz, I got so laughed at. Nobody took game music seriously in the music world or the film/tv world. I managed to get a review in Film Score Monthly but it was so unbelievably condescending... the tone of it was basically "it's great music, but it's from a game....".

Anyway, all that to say that I find it amusing that game music is now so sought after by the very people who laughed at me before. I'm not bitter, really... ;)

As far as the advantages of GDC, all I can say is that I never go. I've been once, back in '97, I believe, and have never been back. I was intrigued when I found out that Ed got his Doom3 gig at GDC, but not enough to go. I've got my long time connections in the game world and they seem to keep me pretty busy so I don't really need to pound the pavement like someone just trying to break in would.

As far as Bob Rice goes, I'm not represented by him so I don't have any advice on that one. I do know that I've never needed an agent up to this point. I've worked on about 60 games or so, so I tend to doubt the necessity at this point. Maybe that's changing. Though, if it were changing fast enough, I'm sure we'd see a lot more agents in the field.

Regarding E3, I like to go just for the dazzle factor, but I rarely stay too long. It's crazy and loud. My delicate ears prefer quieter pastures. One thing about E3 though is that if you have a lot of friends in the industry, it's a great place to hook up and hang out outside of the work environment.

Sending CDs to a developer is the biggest waste of materials I can think of. Most of the people that you send that stuff to are way too busy dealing with mip mapping and collision detection to take time out of their schedule to listen to CDs. Demos sent in the mail are valued about the same as the mortgage refinancing solicitations that I get in the mail everyday. Yes, it would be nice to refinance at a great low rate, but since I get 12 a day, after a while it's not really worth spending time on it. Now, I'll be refinancing in July and have no idea who I'll use. I would certainly never use any of the jokers who send me solicitations in the mail because I hate being a target. It's the same with demos.

Now as far as giving advice for this kind of thing...I'm not so sure. I got in early and built on relationships that were established long ago. Every now and then I'll get lucky and develop a new arm of connections but that's rare these days. Mostly because competition is getting so intense. There was a time when a game developer would get star struck and take on a composer from the film world, but that was before the film composers started proving themselves to be totally inept at creating an adaptive music engine. Now, I think most smart developers will prefer a composer with a lot of good game credits. I've definitely seen an evolution in this area and I'm actually glad to see it benefiting those of us who have paid our dues in the industry. I think this was the view of the developer that I'm working with right now...believe me, they had their pick!

In many ways, I think the plight of film composers trying to break into the business now is roughly equivalent to my attempts to break into films. Though with films, there are many young people coming into the game that I can hitch myself to and rise up as they do. It doesn't quite work that way in games because making a game is such a technically demanding and intensely collaborative endeavor. A hot young director can't just throw together an ad hoc team and make a good game...it's too complicated and therefore requires far more organization. New developers that are coming up are coming from somewhere else. For example, the developer I'm working with now is made up of ex-XXX company employees and ex-XXX company employees who decided to break off and do things the way they wanted to do it. I fortunately was working for XXX company when they were looking for a composer and fit the bill perfectly for them.

If I were trying to break into games right now, I would do it through other means. If there was a company whose games I absolutely loved to play, then I would contact them not as a composer trying to sell them my wares, but as a fan who will do practically anything to get involved in their operation. Developers love enthusiasm for their product...they feed on it because it gives them a sense of pride. Offer to take an internship. Maybe cut some dialog for them for free or something. Do something that makes you look like you want to be involved with the team and not just "fill a need". Then when they fire their composer due to incompetence, have your pitch ready and do your best. Most developers are scared to make a composer decision because it's so important to do everything right. Sometimes if you're the most convenient option, they'll give you a shot and see if it works.

Anyway, I don't know if that does any good, but hopefully gives you a good idea as to the current climate of things as I see them.

Man, I should right a book and sell it to you dudes. ;)
-Jamey

Edit - after reading, I forgot to mention my thoughts on GANG. I'll just say that I will refrain from that endeavor at this time.

[groovyone]

GDC - useless unless you happen to know someone already.

Bull***t.

I've scored two contracts from GDC, one deliberately, and one by accident because I happened to be talking to someone who's brother happened to be Audio Director at ........

GDC is about meeting the peope you don't know, so that you do know people.

GDC will be what you put into it. I think the expectation that you will go and walk out with the next Halo contract is well, silly, but if you put effort in and network correctly, you can get some valuable contacts, and get more exposure. It's much better than shooting off blanks from home trying to hit the right target in the company through the personell department filters.

Besides, I think 3 or 4 sound designer jobs were up for grabs at LucasArts or EA or something last year after one tutorial. Didn't see that advertised online.

So all in all, GDC is not useless.

[dwdonehoo]

IOCOMPOSER- A nice bit of writing and a great deal of good advice.

If you all have the means to go to the GDC, do so and hope for the best. After reading this thread, you will know what to expect. Some will just show up and and good things will happen. Others will be well prepared and come up empty. Its a crap shoot. Good luck to all! :D

[A_Sapp]

I wish I could go, but those audio passes are so 'spensive! :)

[MDesigner]

Yeah, Doyle's right..anything could happen. Just make the most of your time there. Enjoy San Fran. And don't forget about all the excellent lectures/panels that your pass affords you to access. There are a lot of great lectures on different topics, so even if you leave GDC and nothing happens for you as far as new business, at least you learned something valuable at the lectures, and hopefully had a fun time meeting all your peers and boozing it up a bit. :)

[Dave Chan]

I wish I could go, but those audio passes are so 'spensive! :)


Don't think of it as an expense, think of it as an investment. As for demos I know how I felt when I was in the position to recieve them and I'll be taking that into consideration. I think you are better off having a few with you, but for the most part I am just going to get contact info and get permission to send a demo. It's just a heads up so the person that has the time to listen to it knows that it's coming.