keyboard player opinions please

[bachrock]

hello,
i'm a guitarist but am trying to branch out musically so i'm trying to decide between a couple of keyboards for christmas to go with GPO. i've narrowed them down to a couple choices but would really appreciate some advice. this one looked good: MAudio Keystation 88 Pro 88-Key Controller (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=key/search/bigpid/base_id/116562/) & it's non-pro version (sells for half that price). i can't seem to find it right now but there is a casio that looked like this one: casio 88 key digital piano (Casio PX-300 Digital Piano), but had a control wheel.

i only intend to play through my computer so that's why i checked out the m-audio, but it didn't feel like a piano so then i checked out that casio. anyone play the m-audio? does it bother you if they keys don't feel like a piano? lastly, would a midi controller like the m-audio offer any advantages over a digital piano like the casio?

thanks for any advice you can provide,
- jim

[Johneecatt]

I will probably get laughed off this board, but I use an M-Audio keyboard and I like it. First off - I play a keyboard, but I'm definately not a piano player. If I'm playing a GPO instrument like a quick string part, I like keys that are fast and light. I guess it's just what you get used to, but playing hammer action keys in GPO really feels, to me, heavy and slow, and I have trouble getting velocity right.

So - if you are primarily a guitarist, and using a keyboard mostly for virtual instruments, I don't think that synth keys will hold you back.

[FredProgGH]

I will probably get laughed off this board, but I use an M-Audio keyboard and I like it. First off - I play a keyboard, but I'm definately not a piano player. If I'm playing a GPO instrument like a quick string part, I like keys that are fast and light. I guess it's just what you get used to, but playing hammer action keys in GPO really feels, to me, heavy and slow, and I have trouble getting velocity right.

So - if you are primarily a guitarist, and using a keyboard mostly for virtual instruments, I don't think that synth keys will hold you back.
I tried the Keystation 88 and it was way to mushy for me. I realized that piano is only about 5% of what I do anyway- I do way more organ, drums, GPO, etc. So I'm getting the semi-weighted 88 key version of the Keystation (the es I think) for about $250. What stinks is the weighted one has all those awesome assignable controllers on it and the unweighted one deson't. Duh, thanks M-Audio!! :mad:

[stevegoers]

I have the M-Audio. I bought it so I wouldn't have to drag my Roland RD-700 out of the studio every time I have a gig. I'm regretting the purchase. It does have some good points - nice controls, bus-powered, no MIDI interface required - but the keyboard action is simply awful. It's slow, mushy, and the black keys are way too low. There have been lots of questions raised about the action's durability - lots of reports of clicking and loose keys after very moderate use.

My biggest complaint is that the velocity response is terrible. Playing any sampled instrument with more than three velocity layers is very frustrating. I've tried using it with some 16-layer Bosendorfer patches and it's useless. I've tried all of the velocity scalings and I can't get close to the kind of performance I get out of my Roland. I've ended up dragging my Roland inside every time I need to record a piano part.

Wanna buy mine? I'll give you a good deal :)

[FredProgGH]

OK, so what is it?? Why can't there be an 88 key well built controller with pitch and mod wheels as well assignable CC's in weighted and unweighted flavors for a decent price!!

Wouldn't it be cool if there was a controller where you could switch the weighted feel in and out?? In for piano, out for drums, etc.?? Why can't they do that??

[Jerry W.]

OK, so what is it?? Why can't there be an 88 key well built controller with pitch and mod wheels as well assignable CC's in weighted and unweighted flavors for a decent price!!

Wouldn't it be cool if there was a controller where you could switch the weighted feel in and out?? In for piano, out for drums, etc.?? Why can't they do that??

Actually, there is. (Well, not the switchable weighted feel - I doubt that will be a feature any time soon) The keyboard I refer you to is the Yamaha S88 or something like it. My nephew bought it - it has the 88 weighted keys, aftertouch, and the controllers (not as many as m-audio) and its action is much nicer for multi-dynamic VS's.

BUT (and you knew that was coming) it is a stand-alone synth. (meaning it has its own sounds and programming and not just a midi controller) and it is EXPENSIVE.

So I think that you have to play around on several ones until you like the feel and response - and then find something similar that also has the control and programming options that you want. (I too feel there is something lacking in the keyboard universe that meets both of these requirements plus an important third - COST.)

my 2 cents.


Jerry

[FredProgGH]

Actually, speaking of Yamaha I haven't played one in years but I know people still swear by the KX-88. They don't even go for much when they show up on ebay, And it had old-school wheels on it. But right now I'm more interested in non-weighted action.

I remember the Kurzweil MIDIBoard as having wonderful action but they're never on eBay.

[DPDAN]

Actually, speaking of Yamaha I haven't played one in years but I know people still swear by the KX-88. They don't even go for much when they show up on ebay, And it had old-school wheels on it. But right now I'm more interested in non-weighted action.

I have a KX88 and love it, however, for programming purposes, a non weighted keyboard would be better for harp glissandos and other super fast stuff that will keep your hands from bleeding,, :cool: no really, my hands have never hurt that bad playing parts in, and my hands hurt all the time from Rheumatoid Arthritis anyway.

.02
DPDAN

[benjamind]

There is a new keyboard that is going to be released in about 3 years, from my discussions with an individual who is working with various audio hardware suppliers.

It will have two keyboards - in a hammondesqe organ-like arrangement, with upper keyboard and lower keyboard, the lower keyboard will be an 88-key fully weighted action keyboard with adjustable tension and the top one will be a 76-key synth-action keyboard with rounded edges on the sides of the keys. There will also be 25 wheel faders (they are the "infinite" ones that you can keep turning til the cows come home), 25 knobs (again, these have "infinite" turning ability), 25 buttons, two pitch-bends with adjustable tension, and two mod-wheels again with adjustable tension.

There will be a nice big LCD display panel that is included, which will display 4 main screens, one screen will have fader values, one will have values for all the knobs, and the other one will have values for the buttons. And a general interface screen. There will also be 3 inputs, one for sustain pedal, one for volume pedal, and a breath controller input for say the Yamaha BC3. There will also be 3 MIDI-IN and 3 MIDI-OUT ports with MIDI-THRU functionality for two of the MIDI-IN and MIDI-OUT ports giving you the ability to use a wind controller like say the Yamaha WX5.

The entire thing is powered via a single USB port and a 12V power adapter will be included if one wants to power it up manually.

When it comes out it the keys on the bottom will have a very square look to them and they will be pure bright white, the bottom octave of both keyboards will be an ebony colour and the black keys will be an ivory colour, just like they are on the Hammond organ. There will be a special feature where the bottom octave of the keyboards will recall presets for all the knobs and faders.

The keybeds will be of superb quality and the product line should finalise in mid-2007 and begin shipping in late 2007. I know it's a long wait, but it's going to be well worth it.

It comes with a complete stand and has it's own LCD panel for the user interface response. The man said that he'll be using it for the B-2003 hammond drawbar organ emulation synth by Creamware. Said the approximate retail price will be about $US1,499-1,799 depending on the specs, but if I were you I'd probably expect about $US2000. One thing you can be sure of - it will be the only MIDI master controller you'll ever need.

For certain reasons I will not name the company who is developing this product. The product codename is called "Noah WP 88/76". That's about all I am going to say. This is going to be ONE KILLER MIDI KEYBOARD!

I think the initial design was modelled with the classic Hammond organ in mind, but with the lower keyboard being used for traditional piano playing. The bottom keys will be fully (and I mean FULLY) weighted, and I am assured that the action on the bottom keybed will be of the same quality to keybeds on $5,000+ digital pianos. He didn't mention much of the upper keyboard but he just said it would be "light as a feather" with curved edges on the sides of the keys, and that glissandos could be played effortlessly due to a patented action that he wouldn't specify for obvious reasons. All he said was that it is going to be the best thing since sliced bread as far as MIDI controllers go.

Keep your eyes peeled.

[FredProgGH]

The dual manual approach is certainly one answer to the problem. I'd prefer two 88's though. Gigastudio is very much designed around an 88-key controller. While this sound like an interesting unit I see no reason in the world to wait 3 years for it. The technology is here now to do all of that.

Anyway, for the time being I could:

A) get the M-Audio unweighted controller
B) get a KX-88 (or something) off eBay
C) get the M-Audio MIDI box with the knobs and stuff

and stack them all up for about $1,000 or less. Today.

[FredProgGH]

Additional--

I have a Roland RS-9 right now and it's a terrific little controller. My needs would be fufilled but for one thing- it has one of those @#%@&* Roland joysticks on it. What idjit thought that up?? :mad:

[KevinKauai]

Until I started playing church organ (years ago), I was definitely in the weighted camp as a pianist; however, all of my synths [starting from around 1993] have been unweighted and -- this is a personal matter -- I don't know HOW one plays a trumpet, harp, clarinet, violin or flute, for example with WEIGHTED keys. So I have essentially made the transition to unweighted "piano" and can do a pretty good piano on the "organ-style" unweighted keys. (Ridiculous to admit, but I have a *loaded* Korg Triton Studio which is no rarely more than MIDI input to CubaseSX and GPO/Kontakt and HALion3 softSampler. Live and learn.)

If you've not been a standard piano player, then skip the weighted thing entirely and just fashion your "keyboard chops" in the unweighted realm. (In the same way, I would recommend any pianist who wants to branch into fuller orchestral realms to bite the bullet and consider going unweighted; sooner of later, being saddled with weighted keys is going to hamstring you, inmho.)

i hope this helps ... KevinKauai

[bachrock]

thanks for all your opinions and advice guys :) so what i'm hearing is that if i've played piano (i played for about 14 years when i was younger) then the weighted keys are not a problem. this is the casio i was talking about in my last post: :casio px-400R (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=key/search/detail/base_pid/706061/) anyone use it before? felt pretty good to me


If you've not been a standard piano player, then skip the weighted thing entirely and just fashion your "keyboard chops" in the unweighted realm. (In the same way, I would recommend any pianist who wants to branch into fuller orchestral realms to bite the bullet and consider going unweighted; sooner of later, being saddled with weighted keys is going to hamstring you, inmho.)
i hope this helps ... KevinKauai
why would the weighted keys hinder me KevinKauai? i've never done any orchestration (i can't wait!!!) so i really don't know anything about..

thanks guys!
-Jim

[Easy_Rhino]

Whether or not to get a weighted action depends pretty much on what you're used to. For me, a pianist for years, etc., I found my technique started getting sloppy the more time I spent on non-weighted keyboards, plus the piano touch I did have pretty much prevented me from generating MIDI velocity values below 40. Actually, even a lot of the weighted keyboards out there now caused me fits. I fired my Studiologic SL-990 Pro and got the Yamaha P-90 stage piano instead. Unfortunately, it has onboard sounds, so it's more expensive, but the action is as close as I can get to the Steinway B that's hogging the living room. And it's about as sensitive a weighted controller as I've seen so far, meaning that you can actually generate just about all MIDI values between 1 and 127.

As far as playing the various GPO instruments, your touch will determine the outcome. If you're used to a fairly flat response, and you can recreate the lion's share of MIDI velocity values from a synth/organ-like keyboard, then I'd go that direction. If you're used to a non-linear response, then get a weighted keyboard that reinforces that sense of touch as much as possible. In either case, if you can demo the keyboard, I'd take a laptop with me (or borrow one if you can), install some sequencing software on it, plug it into the keyboard, and watch the MIDI velocity values that get recorded. See what happens when you play it as light as possible, and as hard as possible. Ideally, you should get MIDI values between 1 and 10 at the low end, and 118-127 on the high end. Anything less sensitive than that is not necessarily a deal breaker - it just means you may have to go into the MIDI track to tweak a few velocity values now and then.

Or just skirt the whole issue and get two keyboards, finances permitting. BTW - most digital pianos don't have a mod wheel, so you'll have to get an external controller that you hook up in your MIDI chain to handle that.

[Christopher Duncan]

In my humble but honest opinion I cannot stand midi keyboards. I have a fully wieghted , but rather beat up and cheap fatar. It has no sounds and just a sustain pedal/mod weel and pitch. All I really need though and was a gift way back(rather beat up gift lol). I, too, have a weighted 88 key Fatar (by Studiologic) that I bought new for a couple hundred bucks years ago. I love it. It's just a plain jane keyboard with a pitch and mod wheel (and vol / sustain pedals), and given that I'm just a humble guitarist, I like it very much.

[bachrock]

the casio i linked to was the simplest keyboard with weighted keys i could find (the hammer touch of the m-audio kinda bothers me) but do i need more than 1 wheel to use GPO properly? do you recommend any other keyboards like that one (real piano feel, midi, wheel)?

thanks so much for your advice & opinions so far!!! only 17 more shopping days for this :D
- jim

[dezai]

OK, so what is it?? Why can't there be an 88 key well built controller with pitch and mod wheels as well assignable CC's in weighted and unweighted flavors for a decent price!!


I say the exact same thing to myself everyday. I was hoping that NAMM 2005 would remedy this situation, but no dice! I'd also like splittable zones and aftertouch. I can't believe such a product doesn't exist yet.

[stevegoers]

Additional--

I have a Roland RS-9 right now and it's a terrific little controller. My needs would be fufilled but for one thing- it has one of those @#%@&* Roland joysticks on it. What idjit thought that up?? :mad:

Yup, that's my one complaint with the RD-700, which is otherwise the best jobbing keyboard I've ever owned. My guess is that someone uncovered an old warehouse somewhere full of D-50 paddles and Roland decided to save a few bucks.