Timpani Rolls

[billp]

I mentioned in Poolmans' (Terry Dwyer) Variations on a Theme demo thread that I would poke around at improving the sound of the timpani rolls. This is something that I mentioned as a (very minor) weak point in Terry's above-mentioned demo--which is otherwise very finely done. Heres the outcome of my poking around:

Before (http://www.broadviewnet.net\wylbur\TimpaniA.mp3)
After (http://www.broadviewnet.net\wylbur\TimpaniB.mp3)

Is this getting closer? I'm definitely not a timpanist.

[Poolman]

Bill,

Your "after" sounds good. What was the trick?

One problem with the GPO timps is that you cannot get a ff roll without the sound of hard sticks. Better to have medium or even soft sticks playing loudly - this would achieve a more continuous roll. I've been tempted to use Peter Siedlaczek's timps which give us a choice of strokes and rolls with soft, medium and hard sticks - six choices in all!

I did play timps for a while. One thing I learnt was that, in making a roll, evenness of touch is more important than speed. Stange that the live player goes for evenness and the computer musician goes for unevenness!

Would welcome other people's thoughts on this matter.

Terry

[Tom Hopkins]

Bill,

The "after," of course, sounds considerably better. The main things for good-sounding rolls are:

1. Actually "play" them into the track using alternating left and right hands or using the new "playable" roll feature (be sure you have lowered the polyphony to under 16 to conserve CPU.) As with most simulation –related sequencing chores, perfectly spaced, quantized hits will always sound unnatural. Actually playing the part adds velocity and timing irregularities that are essential to the illusion.

2. Related to #1, make sure that velocities never max out for a repeated series of notes in a roll. A series of notes at a velocity of 127 will create a hideous result. A repeated velocity of 127 with no alternation of hands will be even worse. Save 127 for just the loudest part of the roll. If you look at the velocity data you should see very few identical values in a series. Left and right hand velocities should be somewhat different from one another during the roll. Think of it as one hand being naturally stronger than the other. If you play it in that will happen automatically.

3. Experiment with adding both VAR1 and VAR2 data to further increase the differentiation between individual hits.

Terry,

While it's true a live player strives for evenness, he/she never perfectly achieves it. Whereas, the computer musician must take steps to avoid perfect evenness since standard data entry methods make it all too easy to achieve perfect (and utterly unnatural) evenness.

Tom

[Styxx]

Ah yes, the timpani. ;)

[billp]

Here are the SONAR 4 (will work in 3 also) project (http://www.broadviewnet.net/wylbur/TimpaniTest.cwp) and midi (http://www.broadviewnet.net/wylbur/TimpaniTest.mid) files.

I used the X-custom Timpani KS. The velocities are steady 64 throughout in the roll. I used the same hand-drawn mod wheel curve for both "Before" and "After".

What's different:
VAR 1 and VAR 2 were both "0" in the first sample, 21 and 64 respectively in the second.

The other difference is in the note durations. In the "Before", they are even. In the "After", they are irregular.

Take a look at the midi events in your favorite sequencer.

[Poolman]

Tom,

I hear you. (Though I wonder what would happen if a timpanist achieved the perfect roll. Would he be fired? :D )

I looked at my timp roll velocities, and they were varied. I think what I did wrong was to record at a slower tempo but played a normal repetition rate for rolls. Then when the tempo was up to speed I didn't notice the fault, what with the rest of the orchestra playing. Black mark, Terry.

Terry

[Styxx]

My days in college studying percussion had seen some amazing performances on timpani. Talking here about solo performances which if you've never seen a principle percussionist perform, you are totally missing out! Hard to believe someone can be a virtuoso on timpani until you experience it for yourself. Just thought I would roll in on the subject.

[Robert P]

(be sure you have lowered the polyphony to under 16 to conserve CPU.)
How can you change the polyphony using GPO Studio?

Robert

[Styxx]

He is my solo;

http://www.twinzzapstudio21.com/Demos/Michael/Sentinal.mp3

This was produced with a Roland SPD8 Percussion Pad midi to GPO Before the new updates and sequenced using Cubasis 4VST.

Just thought you might want to hear if you haven't already.

Oh, BTW - Played in live.

[Jeff Turner]

How can you change the polyphony using GPO Studio?

Robert

In the Kontakt player, just to the right of the midi channel info, are 2 numbers separated by a slash. The number on the right is the polyphony setting. Click on that number, and while holding your mouse button down, drag the mouse up or down to change the setting.

Jeff

[billp]

How can you change the polyphony using GPO Studio?

Robert
Open up the player in question by clicking on the "Player n" image, select the instrument/voice, and adjust its polyphony.

EDIT: Oops...to slow.

[billp]

He is my solo;

http://www.twinzzapstudio21.com/Demos/Michael/Sentinal.mp3

This was produced with a Roland SPD8 Percussion Pad midi to GPO Before the new updates and sequenced using Cubasis 4VST.

Just thought you might want to hear if you haven't already.

Oh, BTW - Played in live.
Thanks Styxx. That's quite interesting. I listened to this several times. It's clear that you have an excellent touch with the mallets. I did hear at certain points (at 00:10-00:11, for example), when you'd do a four-or-so note roll, very nice and even, the "evil" machine gun sound of the sample would start to appear (no reflection on your technique :D ). In general, though, on the more, well spaced-out isn't a good word, but maybe more spacious sections and in the sections where velocity was purposely varied, it all sounds fantastic.

I must have missed something in the reading (maybe not), but the "standard" Timpani responds to velocity. The X-custom does not, but instead responds to CC01, which is what I used in my original demo. I better go back and read the pdf that came with the update.

I went back and experimented with both the original and the X-custom voices, and, on the whole, I prefer the X-custom with the varied CC01 over the standard with the varied velocity...

Is it possible to do this (CC01) with the drum pad and a pedel? Not very drummerly, I imagine. I know you could use Markleford's Velocity to CC. Just curious.

[DPDAN]

Styxx, may I make a recommendation for this otherwise great example of playing. It concerns the G# (right speaker)
Although in real life, these repeated notes would be played by the same hand on a real timpaanio...., :p the sound would still be different for each hit. I would go into the sequencer and take every other hit and place it on the (other hand) sample. This would eliminate the MGE machine gun effect for that hand.
just an observation Sir Styxx :)
DPDAN

[IGOR]

He is my solo;

http://www.twinzzapstudio21.com/Demos/Michael/Sentinal.mp3

This was produced with a Roland SPD8 Percussion Pad midi to GPO Before the new updates and sequenced using Cubasis 4VST.

Just thought you might want to hear if you haven't already.

Oh, BTW - Played in live.

Very good

[Tom Hopkins]

I must have missed something in the reading (maybe not), but the "standard" Timpani responds to velocity. The X-custom does not, but instead responds to CC01, which is what I used in my original demo. I better go back and read the pdf that came with the update.
The whole point of the X-Custom is that you can assign the controller. Velocity is one of the choices.

Tom

[Styxx]

Styxx, may I make a recommendation for this otherwise great example of playing. It concerns the G# (right speaker)
Although in real life, these repeated notes would be played by the same hand on a real timpaanio...., :p the sound would still be different for each hit. I would go into the sequencer and take every other hit and place it on the (other hand) sample. This would eliminate the MGE machine gun effect for that hand.
just an observation Sir Styxx :)
DPDAN
First, I need to apologies for seemingly taking over this post. Not intentional I assure you. Just wanted to show how the "rolls" could be effectively played in.

Thanks Dan, I will take the time to redo the section. What I did was played in on the Roland percussion pad using independent sticking (no cross sticking) and setting pads on the SPD8 respectively. But, as well noted, one is limited to the standards and limitations of midi. I did nothing to edit the piece after. Will do so now.
Thanks for the advice! :)
I do miss my four real Ludwig timps! :(

[Rhap2]

I mentioned in Poolmans' (Terry Dwyer) Variations on a Theme demo thread that I would poke around at improving the sound of the timpani rolls. This is something that I mentioned as a (very minor) weak point in Terry's above-mentioned demo--which is otherwise very finely done. Heres the outcome of my poking around:

Before (http://www.broadviewnet.net\wylbur\TimpaniA.mp3)
After (http://www.broadviewnet.net\wylbur\TimpaniB.mp3)

Is this getting closer? I'm definitely not a timpanist.

Gee, Bill--you had a real "machine gun" on the "Before" Timpani. I was no where near that type of gun, but the second (After) was marvelous. You became a Timpanist, in my estimation, with that creation.

Now, what did you do to improve A and make it into B? Or, what did you do to A that made the B sound so great?

John

[billp]

John,
Take a look at the 5th entry in this thread. I think the SONAR project and midi files are still on my site.

[Styxx]

Here is an example from a recent project. The timp was played in "real time" using a Roland SPD-20 and edited slightly to preserve a natural sound and feel. Quantization was not used for the same.

http://www.twinzzapstudio21.com/Timpani/Timp_Example_Without_Orchestra.mp3

With orchestra - The timpani is mixed a bit above the orchestra for clearer reference.
http://www.twinzzapstudio21.com/Timpani/Timp_Example_With_Orchestra.mp3

Midi file -
http://www.twinzzapstudio21.com/Timpani/Timpani_Example.mid
Have fun with the midi file.