Sonar vs. Logic vs. Cubase vs....?

[MDesigner]

I\'d just like to hear from other people what they like about their sequencers. What do the others have over Sonar XL 2.2? I might switch one day.. images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks

[meeehoon]

I like Logic because I have been using it every since v3 and its grown onto me... I have a copy of Cubasis VST which is nowhere near the new Cubase SX and didn\'t quite like the function in that, but I didn\'t spend much time learning it either as all I need to do was to extract midi-files and wav files... images/icons/grin.gif Haven\'t used Cakewalk stuff before either...

Thing I like most about Logic is the environment where its easy to see the signal flow and I can insert all sorts of stuff to modify the signal!!! That\'s been very invaluable!!! Also, the integrated EXS24 MkII and EVP88 are just brilliant!!!

The only thing I don\'t like is that now that they are on Logic 6, I will need to upgrade to Apple to take advantage of the Freeze function... But the PC version of v5.5 suits me jsut fine now and I will probably buy a fast PC first and then upgrade in about 2-3 years time when I have more $$$, am married, have a house BUT before my kids start popping out!!! heheheheh...

In many ways I am glad I didn\'t crossgrade to Cubase SX then after figuring out that I would need to spend more money to replace the EXS24 and EVP88 if I crossgrade...

meeehoon

[Scott Cairns]

I\'m using SX for midi/VST\'s and Vegas for audio, video sync and mixdown.

I was very interested in Logic until they dropped support for the PC. I have heard that it has some great functions for composers, something about calculating cue lengths based on song tempos or something... I forget now...

I couldn\'t really say what it has over Sonar I\'m sorry as I don\'t use it.

SX 1.05 is much better than when it came out of the box as 1.0 (obviously!) - The Cubase forums had some pretty irate users for a while accusing Steinberg of using the public as a \"beta-testers\" on a released product.

Regards, Scott.

[Scott Cairns]

If you\'re into a lot of processor intensive DSP, SoftSynths and Samplers, the Freeze function is amazing. If you doubt that, just wait till you see it in action.
<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I should add that you can write a macro to do this in SX. I wrote one to export audio, mute the original midi track, import the audio back in and turn off the VST. (Roughly along those lines.)

Now if I want to \"freeze\" a track, I press; ctrl-shift-F.

Cheers, Scott.

[David Abraham]

Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
... Plus you could, for instance, unfreeze, change the velocity of one note in a graphic editor then re-freeze in an instant. ...

Lee Blaske <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Yeah, for me the unfreeze would be just as important as the freeze ...

thanks for the info...

-david abraham

[PeterRoos]

Does the freeze feature also work with groups of midi tracks instead of with individual tracks? I mean, I use 3-8 midi tracks per instrument and then bounce them to their corresponding audio tracks. I wouldn\'t want to get an audio track \"underwater\" for each midi track in my current Autoload file (120+).
Although I got the Logic to SX-crossgrade as my future sequencing platform, I\'m still thinking about the Mac route images/icons/smile.gif

[pantonality]

I like Logic too, despite being marooned on the PC platform. I\'m aware I can upgrade to a Mac at some point in the future, I just don\'t have a compelling reason to do so.

What I like about Logic goes way beyond the audio handling. Of the major sequencers it has the best notation function. As a composer who starts with paper this is valuable to me. The event list is pretty easy to work in as well, so basically the midi functionality in Logic has me hooked (since version 1.7). The fact that the audio side is as good as it is is just icing on the cake.

Steve Chandler
Http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler (\"Http://www.mp3.com/stevechandler\")

[mike harper]

logic 5.5 on PC when hell freezes over and apple drops the price on macs i\'ll cross over. also
id like to get into DP

[Houston Haynes]

Over the years I\'ve gone from Mac/Performer to PC/Cakewalk to PC/Logic to PC/Cubase SX and will never look back. Your mileage may vary. Try the demos.

Here are some of my more detailed thoughts on the value of online advice:

http://www.tascam.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23411 (\"http://www.tascam.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23411\")

http://www.tascam.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28284 (\"http://www.tascam.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28284\")

I had also posted a detailed reply to a thread in a list that does not have public access, so here is the body of the message


Any answer you may get from this question will have limited value - and
it\'s your fault. images/icons/wink.gif ) But seriously, the reason for this is that you
don\'t give enough information.

What\'s your background?
What\'s your previous recording experience?
What\'s your previous computer experience?
What\'s your previous music training?
Do you already have a platform preference?
What are you trying to accomplish?
Are you only looking for studio gear, or are you looking to record
remotely?
Do you want to use mainly electronic instruments for end-to-end
production, or do you want to simply produce scratch tracks and then
record live players for the final product (or somewhere in between)?
What\'s your budget?
How much money are you willing to spend over a given period of time in
order to achieve a certain level of functionality?
How \"far\" are you willing to go in terms of licensing software versus
stacking up hardware?
How do you want to integrate with your current studio/working method?
How much time are you willing to invest in gaining the most
functionality from your system (are you a tweaker or a plug-and-play
type)?

Do you see what I mean?

All of these things factor in - and anyone that thinks they can give you
a fair answer without getting this information from you is likely doing
you a disservice.

Regardless of what you do or how you do it - and whether you have a
preference for Mac or PC - going through this process is necessary and
valuable - even if you simply make a list of factors and keep it to
yourself.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">

[Does It Matter?]

Logic 6 is the best music sequencer as of now. Of course this is subject to change but I really feel that Apple/Emagic is just getting started. Its a thing of beauty when you realize how it is intended to work.

[csduke]

I switched from Logic 4.8 to Sonar 2 XL when EMagic abandon the PC and its users. One thing that became immediately apparent in making that switch, to me and others I know anyway, is that Sonar is very user-friendly i.e. very intuitive with a pleasant interface and very good on-line help. I could not say this about Logic 4.8 and its tired user-interface, poor on-line help and often amateurishly written poorly translated (German to English) manual. There\'s no d*m dongle either. On the other hand, many swear by Logic and/or Cubase (see above) and rightly so. We each have our own needs and tastes, expectations and tolerances. So, your quest is by no mean clear-cut and hence you should, as others have suggested, download demo copies and take them all for a spin. In the end its nice to know that you can\'t make a bad choice between the three but rather, at worst, not choose the one that best fits your needs.

[SteveHanlon]

I tend to agree with csduke with sonar\'s interface. I am hoping that Apple can and will step in and assist Emagic in taking the power of Logic and dressing it in some nice clothes.

But then again, it\'s possible to get used to anything and start to swear by it. I guess \'complicated\' is a a matter of familiarity vs. unfamliarity.

[csduke]

Originally posted by Marty:
I tend to agree with csduke with sonar\'s interface. I am hoping that Apple can and will step in and assist Emagic in taking the power of Logic and dressing it in some nice clothes.

But then again, it\'s possible to get used to anything and start to swear by it. I guess \'complicated\' is a a matter of familiarity vs. unfamliarity. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">That is the second thing I thought about when Apple purchase EMagic. Apple has excellent GUI developers.

Your last point is so true. At work I still use the vi editor (frightening to many) when I am developing on Unix machines.

[Daedalus]

I attended a Logic clinic last night and I was very impressed.

1. The freeze function is absolutely a must now for me. I couldn\'t live without it. (although I hear Cubase is adding a \'freeze\' function now as well)
2. DV output through the firewire port will be very nice for scoring to film.

Ben Ripley

[Vertigo50]

I think most people will agree it\'s often a matter of which program you start out with. People tend to stick with the first program they use. If you\'re used to Sonar, you\'ll probably have a hard time with Logic and it\'s non-intuitive interface. Cubase SX has the same problem, in my opinion.

I love Sonar for it\'s user-friendly interface, it\'s looping capabilities, it\'s integration with Soundforge, and the DXI instruments. I wish Sonar supported VST, but you can use a VST wrapper for most VST\'s, and it works fine.

[Maxwell]

Sonar does all I need and is intuitive.

[meltingmars]

I am a Logic user and feel it is best for midi period!!!

But for audio and especially syncing to other machines like in an ADAT chain, Nuendo and Cubase I feel are better.

First of all, Logic doesn\'t support sample accurate editing in the Arrange window which can lead to waveforms sliding right and left by a few samples when you do edits. This is a problem if you have tracks recorded with the same mic. You basically have to make sure you apply the same edits to all tracks which have a phase relationship.

Most studios want the ability to sync to ADAT Sync Protocol. This would be important if you want sample accurate sync between your ADAT machines, and your DAW. Assuming you have an RME or Dakota card which supports ADAT sync.

The problem is, Emagic never fully implemented support for ASIO 2.0 and left out support for ASIO Positioning Protocol, which is how an RME or Dakota card communicates ADAT sync to the DAW Software. Nuendo and Cubase do support this, so you can fly tracks back and forth from your DAW to ADAT machines, and they will always be sample accurate transfers.

So with Logic, you will have to sync with MTC and not be as precise. Let\'s just hope, that with Core Audio which can TimeStamp every sample and every midi event, that Emagic will step up to the plate and add this functionality for high end users. Come on already, this is supposed to be pro gear.

Most high end guys like Nuendo for these and many other reasons, such as the undo functionality and ability to import many project types, but it is $1400.

I have an ADAT HD24, because I am sick of tracking into a DAW, which I feel is better for writing midi parts and doing mixes. It would make my life a lot easier if I could lock these two together sample accurate, which is why I am considering Nuendo. Nuendo 2.0 is supposed to have much better midi support, but I can guarantee it won\'t be as good as Logic. And Nuendo doesn\'t have Freeze :-{

cheers,
mars

[csduke]

Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\"> Originally posted Craig Duke: I could not say this about Logic 4.8 and ... <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It\'s not fair to compare an old version of Logic with a current version of Sonar.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Sure it\'s fair. I reference the version number of Logic that I used. Anyone else is welcome to disagree with me about the ergonomics of Logic 4.8 vs. another sequencer or state, as you did (I think), that 6.0 is a dramatic improvement in in usability. The one thing I do miss about Logic is its notation capabilities, which are better than Sonar\'s. The most concrete problem to me in this issue is that I can buy 3 PCs for the price of an Apple.

[Does It Matter?]

Craig, I agree that its fair so long as you reference the version that you are using but it certainly isn\'t representative of the current state of affairs. Logic 6(current version) is a about as different from Logic 4.8 as Sonar is to Cakewalk 7.

[jose elith]

Originally posted by csduke:
I switched from Logic 4.8 to Sonar 2 XL when EMagic abandon the PC and its users. One thing that became immediately apparent in making that switch, to me and others I know anyway, is that Sonar is very user-friendly i.e. very intuitive with a pleasant interface and very good on-line help. I could not say this about Logic 4.8 and its tired user-interface, poor on-line help and often amateurishly written poorly translated (German to English) manual. There\'s no d*m dongle either. On the other hand, many swear by Logic and/or Cubase (see above) and rightly so. We each have our own needs and tastes, expectations and tolerances. So, your quest is by no mean clear-cut and hence you should, as others have suggested, download demo copies and take them all for a spin. In the end its nice to know that you can\'t make a bad choice between the three but rather, at worst, not choose the one that best fits your needs. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I have used Logic since Notator days and have suffered many changes from Atari-PC-Mac but I\'m very happy with my Logic/Mac combination. I\'ts rock solid and I have forgotten all the Asio Overload problems that I suffered with my Logic/ PC combination.... about the dongle: What\'s the problem?


Elith images/icons/smile.gif

[clueless]

I am surprised there has not been more support for DP. I use both DP (on a MAC of course) and Logic on a PC -- sometimes at the same time. I use them for different purposes. I will have to say that DP is friendlier, more robust, and seems to have more capability for fine control and manipulation. Both of my software versions are not at the current number.

clueless

[Does It Matter?]

Originally posted by clueless:
Both of my software versions are not at the current number. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Again, I\'ll repeat Lee Blaske. Logic 6 is a completely different animal from earlier versions. I have played around with DP3 and it simply wasn\'t in the same league in my opinion. I\'m trying not to come off as arrogant but thats my experience. But since I haven\'t experienced DP4 it is possible that my perceptions are misguided. images/icons/wink.gif

Also, if you run Logic on the PC, you might want to do yourself a favor and accept that free crossgrade since you already own a Mac. You won\'t regret it.

[JonFairhurst]

Then again there are those of us that do most of the composition in Sibelius or Finale, and then use the sequencer just to touch things up, or to capture the score being played live. In this case I find that it\'s critical that the notation software be comfortable for music entry, and that the UI of the sequencer, while important, isn\'t as critical as the UI of the notation package.

[peter269]

Originally posted by meltingmars:
But now I just track into the Alesis HD24, which has never had a problem, and has like 1 millisecond latency. After recording, i fly the tracks via the ethernet port on the HD24 into Logic, for my mix. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I do something similar. I sequence in Cubase SX (formerly I sequenced in Logic on the PC) but record the audio into Samplitude where I finish the mix.

[Anders00]

Originally posted by peter269:
I do something similar. I sequence in Cubase SX (formerly I sequenced in Logic on the PC) but record the audio into Samplitude where I finish the mix. <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">So Peter if I understand you correctly you run CBSX and Samplitude simultaneously on the same DAW?
Also, why\'d you switch from Logic to Cubase?

The reason I ask is I like using Logic for sequencing, but would like to try mixing in Samplitude since I\'ve heard so much about it.

-Matt

[meltingmars]

Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I have an ADAT HD24, because I am sick of tracking into a DAW<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">What don\'t you like about tracking into a DAW? To me, it seems like the ideal way to work.

BTW, the arrange window in Logic 6.0 is sample accurate.

Lee Blaske </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Hi Lee,

I want to record many tracks at once and ...

I was sick of the occasional ASIO overloads, freezes. I hated, that everytime I recorded a track, I had to save, otherwise a crash would lose the position of the recorded wave. I hated that everytime you upgraded the software, you couldn\'t predict what would cause a freeze up. I hated, being afraid to load other software, plugins, etc, because this may make my system unstable. etc, etc, etc ...


But now I just track into the Alesis HD24, which has never had a problem, and has like 1 millisecond latency. After recording, i fly the tracks via the ethernet port on the HD24 into Logic, for my mix. As the song progresses, I make temporary mixes, and fly them back to the HD24, and then I do more tracking against those. I usually keep a track of click and 2 tracks of current mix on the HD24.

What is nice about this, is you can turn off the computers while tracking, and concentrate on playing. It is working out quite well, and now I don\'t care if Logic crashes. Because I am only mixing. Also I can take the HD24 over to my friend\'s studio, and we can track there. I had been doing the DAW thing for 5 years, and I will never go back for tracking. The HD24 has editing capabilities, but i would never use those. That is what the DAW is great at doing.

Plus the HD24 has two drive caddies, so you can mirror your project for safety with the click of a button, and then put it on the shelf. The HD24 uses a proprietary interleave format on the harddrive, so you can use cheap 5400 drives, and never have a problem.

Even though I work with Logic and the HD24 independently and all is great. It would be nice if I could lock them together at sample accuracy via ADAT sync. Then I could transfer tracks back and forth via the lightpipe rather than the slower Ethernet. Right now Logic can only lock to MTC, so I am limited to that Sync, which is still pretty good, but not good enough to keep the phase relationship between tracks flown back and forth. I love Logic, I just wish they would do this, since they promised it back in the 4.X days. Maybe in 7.0. But the ethernet transfer allows me to get all tracks lined up exactly, it is just slow. Alesis is just now releasing a firewire dock, so you can put the caddies into this and transfer the files to your computer 40 times faster than the 10baseT ethernet. So I will probably get that next.

Oh yeah, the Arrange window in 6.0 is not sample accurate. It has a sample accurate view of the waveform, but you can\'t edit or slide waves by the sample. Though I hear this is on the way. I can only hope. Most companies that state their DAW is sample accurate are talking about view and edit. When Logic released 6.0 they said the arrange window was \"almost sample accurate\" which was quickly removed from the website to instead say that it supported sample accurate view, but not editing.

In conclusion, thank goodness, that my recording habits, and playing music are no longer dictated by Emagic, and their coders. I could use the HD24 as it is now for the next 20 years, and be happy. And mix and record midi in Logic of course.

cheers,
mars

[Edward]

Where are all of the Cubase SX users?

Okay here\'s my two cents...

I come from being an huge supporter of Cakewalk (I still have my copy of Cakewalk Professional for Windows 3.11 on a single floppy disk)

I also used Cakewalk pro audio for midi and Vegas for audio. More recently, I have switched over to Cubase SX completely.

I tried Sonar 2.2 XL and for the most part really liked it. The layout was right at home with me and looks just like the old Cakewalk Pro for 3.11. But that said the interface is a bit archaic. I really liked the loop functions. Those are really cool. They work just like acid with dragging looped audio endlessly on a track.
I also liked the integration of the DXi synths. The biggest drawback, and the reason I did not go with Sonar is latency! I am a softsynth user and testing latency between VST on SX and DXi on Cakewalk there is a definite difference. I tested Absynth and FM7 on the two.

I am using an Echo Mia Midi card and on SX the ASIO driver is right on. It feels like 0 latency. On Sonar, this is not the case. It is more of a balancing game. I was at some points able to get the latency down fairly low 4-8ms for the softsynths but then audio tracks would not work. The sound would be garbled and useless. If I bumped latency up to 20 ms everything worked fine.

SX is wonderful to work with. The interface is world of difference from Sonar, very polished and pro looking IMHO. Especially the virtual faders...Sonar just looks so clunky. True Sonar cost less, but if you search around you can find good deals especially if you are a student. I think www.academicsuperstore.com (\"http://www.academicsuperstore.com\") has a student version of SX for $373.

I hope this helps. I have never used Logic or DP so I can’t comment but if you buy SX you will be happy.

Cheers!

Edward Trevino

[meltingmars]

One thing to consider is midi jitter.

This basically means that if you sequence even quarter notes, they will not come out of the midi out port totally even. There will be a little jitter. Old versions of Cubase, before SX had problems with this, so I don\'t know what the status of this is.

Apple has introduced Core Midi as well as Core Audio as part of the Kernal of Mac OSX. Midi events and audio samples are timestamped as they are passed to and from the midi/audio hardware, where they are buffered and sent out in perfect time.

They say Core Midi has a jitter of less than 0.1 milliseconds.

Also latency from a midi in port to your sequencing program and back out to the midi out port, will have a latency less than 1 millisecond.

I believe Cubase on MacOSX is supporting Core Midi and Audio, and of course Apple\'s Logic does, so both should receive the same benefits.

I am PC guy now, but I am going to switch to Mac for my DAW in the next year. I just don\'t think MS is taking the whole audio/midi thing as seriously as Apple MacOSX/a.k.a. NeXtStep. But I still haven\'t decided whether to stick with Logic or go to Cubase or Nuendo??

If it was just midi, I would stick with Logic, but for audio and synchronization capabilities I would go with Cubase or Nuendo.

Gigastudio runs on a separate PC of course.

cheers,
mars

[DevonB]

Originally posted by jose elith:
Originally posted by csduke:
I have used Logic since Notator days and have suffered many changes from Atari-PC-Mac but I\'m very happy with my Logic/Mac combination. I\'ts rock solid and I have forgotten all the Asio Overload problems that I suffered with my Logic/ PC combination.... about the dongle: What\'s the problem?


Elith images/icons/smile.gif <font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Oh ya, ASIO overloads. I used to get that on Logic 4 and 5 on the PC. Funny thing, I switched to Cubase SX, and my problems went away. Logic was and always has been buggy. Certain things don\'t work with VSTi\'s, Logic didn\'t have MIDIfx, the interface was confusing, even using it for as long as I had (I bought Logic 2.0 back in 1997 I think it was) and went through version 3, 4, then 5.

I was very happy that Emagic allows you to transfer your license, because I sold it and now use Cubase SX. I do miss the quality of some of the effects, but slowly but surely, I\'m finding the most used ones in freeware to replace Cubase\'s crappy effects.

I find it funny how many people moan and groan about learning a new interface. Really, it\'s not that big of a deal. You\'re forced to do it with operating systems, and everything else electronic. I don\'t hear people whine when they buy a new hardware synth and have to learn it \'all over again, because it\'s not like Synth A\'. Life is full of new learning oportunities, and change can be hard. Oh well. At least give it a shot. I wasn\'t even going to touch Cubase SX, but now I\'m not turning back.

Just give the demos a shot, and come up with a good list of EVERYTHING you do to make sure the program does what you need. Hate for you to me in the middle of a project and realise \'oh crap! I can\'t do x, y and z! Oh no! images/icons/shocked.gif \'

Devon

[DevonB]

Originally posted by Lee Blaske:
</font><blockquote><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">quote:</font><hr /><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I find it funny how many people moan and groan about learning a new interface. Really, it\'s not that big of a deal.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">It\'s not that big of a deal if you\'re using an application casually, just dealing with the basics. It\'s a VERY big deal if you\'re a power user, and you\'re really exploiting a lot of the possibilities in a deep application, and have been using it for a long time.

Lee Blaske </font><hr /></blockquote><font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">Again, so? Are you going to stick with Windows 95 too? It\'s certainly much different than Windows XP. So is any of the other programs that have changed over the years like Cubase, Cakewalk, etc.

The day I stop learning is the day I\'m dead. I don\'t want to stop learning new things, and trying out new things. The amount of information I have to know for my day job, and then KEEP learning is amazing, but if I don\'t keep up with it, I\'m going to be in a lot of trouble.

Is it frustrating to start over again? Yes. But why fight it? If something is within the same vein, it\'s certainly a lot easier than starting from scratch.

Devon

[Does It Matter?]

I agree with your line of thinking Devon B, but are you applying that same rationale to Logic and Cubase SX? If so, I don\'t think its applicable, especially if someone is on the Mac platform.

[Scott Cairns]

It\'s not that big of a deal if you\'re using an application casually, just dealing with the basics. It\'s a VERY big deal if you\'re a power user, and you\'re really exploiting a lot of the possibilities in a deep application, and have been using it for a long time.<font size=\"2\" face=\"Verdana, Arial\">I\'d have to agree there too. If you are using keyboard shortcuts, macros, etc. Switching to a new app can take months to come to grips with. If this is an app that you work with daily the speed that you can operate it is critical.

Back in my graphic design days I used Photoshop. The day Fireworks (Macromedia\'s graphic app) adopted the Photoshop shortcuts I switched. Without the same key commands I would be searching through menu trees. Sometimes the functions don\'t even have the same name...

Anyway enough of my rant...

[SteveHanlon]

But, I\'d add that a well designed program will let a person design his/her own shortcut keys.

Of course it won\'t be without bumps, but the basics can be tailored to fit your familiar working shortcut keys and visual layouts.