Why it doesn't sound professional?

[sfiks]

Hello everybody!
I started remixing my old piece, spent several months and ended up with almost exact version.
I need your fresh ears. I'm sure you can catch what's wrong with the mix (or me :o ).
I don't own Mark II, D6, and can't hire real sax, guitars or drums. Is this the reason it sounds so fake?
Roland XP-60 and Akai S5000 were used.
If you have time for 7 minutes, it's here (http://www.sonarama.com/1.0/zina_index.php?l=8&p=c04/99/Funkynova.mp3&m=1)

Thank you in advance (will be hitting that F5 every minute :D ).
please...

[Martin Hines]

I listened to the 45 second version. There is nothing wrong with the song except that a person can easily tell that the guitars and saxaphone don't sound real.

[cptexas]

I listened to the 45 second version. There is nothing wrong with the song except that a person can easily tell that the guitars and saxaphone don't sound real.
Yeah, the saxes are a dead givaway.
I'm sure there are some great sax sample libraries out there........somewhere.
Just take a look around. Your bound to find something that works for your ears and budget.

Chris

[Alewis]

I was under the impression that Sax is one of the most difficult instruments out there to program with samples.....

[midphase]

It sounds very stiff, like everything is way too quantized. You might consider loosening it up a bit. I also thought that the electric piano was very loud in the mix.

Lastly, I really don't understand why people who don't have a particularly good sample of an instrument insist in writing music for that instrument. If you don't have a good sax (and I have some news for you....nobody does!) then don't write music with sax in it if you want it to sound realistic. Simple, problem solved! Why don't you use another sound instead of sax? Perhaps another interesting lead synth? Or even a piano?

[Alan Russell]

It sounds very stiff, like everything is way too quantized. You might consider loosening it up a bit. I also thought that the electric piano was very loud in the mix.

Lastly, I really don't understand why people who don't have a particularly good sample of an instrument insist in writing music for that instrument. If you don't have a good sax (and I have some news for you....nobody does!) then don't write music with sax in it if you want it to sound realistic. Simple, problem solved! Why don't you use another sound instead of sax? Perhaps another interesting lead synth? Or even a piano?


Midphase,

there are times that a certain sample and also being that particular instrument fits the bill just right. Certainly it is easier to take another sample that is more authentic in sound having terrific articulation patches and applying them to seqencing software. The reality decided is whether it captures the moment in the arranger's subjective reality.

If I had demo something for the sake of the product and a good old alto would be somewhat convincing and needed for that score, (not nearly perfect) I'd use a sample that would be considered not looped. (most keyboard synths use loops in their samples)

The saxes remain are a huge challenge in this virtual community and one needs the right Jazz Musician to offer their sound and of course spend countless hours with a dedicated sound developer playing each note SO many ways. The question is, which reed musician has the patience to assist here.

Alan Russell

[cptexas]

I was under the impression that Sax is one of the most difficult instruments out there to program with samples.....
Well, what do I know? :D
I've never wanted a sax in my orchestra so I never bothered researching them.

Chris

[Mosquito]

If you need sax, a new plugin, Saxlab (http://www.linplug.com/Products/SaxLab/saxlab.htm) have just been released. Might be worth checking out.

[thesoundsmith]

Saxlab demos pretty much suck, IMHO - but there is a free demo DL, my favorite kind - every minute or so a sound is emitted, but if you play/record the part 2 or 3 times, you can comp the parts together to create the section. Not legal for commercial use, I'm sure, but you can try it in depth before purchasing, something which is in short supply in the sample community (unlike the VI community.)

[area51recording]

I play sax and keys in both live and studio situations, and I really feel like sax is one of the hardest instruments to sample and have it sound like the real deal. It's really hard to emulate all the personality the player brings to the instrument- bends, slides, vibrato, tonal changes at the drop of a hat, ghosted notes, growls, etc. I've heard sax libs that tonally can come pretty close but wind up sounding too static to fool anyone IMHO.

[Max Head]

What monitors do you use? what room you mixing in? It sounds like the problem is in environment.

[sfiks]

It sounds very stiff, like everything is way too quantized.
Hi-Hat is the only thing that was quantized.

I also thought that the electric piano was very loud in the mix..
Where? In 48 seconds excerpt?

What monitors do you use?
Mackie HR-824, but mostly headphones (maybe that's the reason?)

what room you mixing in?
Living room in a building. And, as Bruce A. Richardson once said,
"with the volume at slightly below listening level."

It sounds like the problem is in environment.
What problem do you hear? What frequencies are bad?
Thanks for taking your time, guys. Hope to hear more.

[lukpcn]

Mackie HR-824, but mostly headphones (maybe that's the reason?)

If i can add two cents. I think that using Headphones may be one reason.
If i Use Headphones the mix does sounds good on them but doesn't sound good on Speakers (monitors) but if I use Speakers then the mix sounds good on both Monitors (Speakers) and Headphones...

[Alexcremers]

The biggest shortcoming of samples is that they haven't got a clue what it is you are trying to express with your composition.


------------
Alex Cremers

[josejherring]

Hello everybody!
I started remixing my old piece, spent several months and ended up with almost exact version.
I need your fresh ears. I'm sure you can catch what's wrong with the mix (or me :o ).
I don't own Mark II, D6, and can't hire real sax, guitars or drums. Is this the reason it sounds so fake?
Roland XP-60 and Akai S5000 were used.
Short 48 seconds excerpt is here (http://www.sonarama.com/1.0/zina_index.php?l=8&p=c04/99/Funkynova_48seconds.mp3&m=1)
If you have time for 7 minutes, it's here (http://www.sonarama.com/1.0/zina_index.php?l=8&p=c04/99/Funkynova.mp3&m=1)

Thank you in advance (will be hitting that F5 every minute :D ).
please...

Hey, I didn't know you could just hit F5 to refresh your connection. Serves me right for being mostly a mac guy until recently.

As far as the mix is concerned I actually think it's mixed pretty well considering the elements you're working with. I think the problem lies more in that the instruments and parts don't integrate that well together.

I'd try experimenting with different instrumentation and also there is a lot of hocketing in the melody parts which is okay but then it takes you awhile to come back in with the other parts so it sounds like many times there's just a base line with a melody 3 octaves above it and then suddenly the melody is in the bass and there's a keyboard part trying to cover the harmony three oct. above that.

When I write pieces if I have the melody in the bass I'll usually either put in a real stable harmony part just above it so that everything doens't sound thin and unsupported as the bass line is the main support of the harmony and resonance of your chord structure.

Try stablizing out the harmonic structure and see if that makes the piece sound more pro.

Cheers,


Jose

[sfiks]

I'd try experimenting with different instrumentation...

Thanks for suggestion, Jose. It's a difficult thing to do when you already chose the instruments for a particular piece.

[Bruce A. Richardson]

To me, it's just all about the sounds. They're all rather hollowed, slick, sounds...so you don't get the forward punch. I think you've mixed it about as well as you could given the sounds.

I guess if you really wanted to work on it, you could start pumping up the midrange on different voices and trying to get some presence in the mix. But on the other hand, it's also fairly busy in places, so it would be hard work.

I'm sure you're already more than aware of it, but the sax sample just kills everything. If you were using a real player on that, it would be intensely dynamic, and you might have a better chance of building a soundstage around it. Since everything hangs back behind the speakers, with nothing punching that "hole" into the room, you are lacking front-to-back depth...what I'm calling "forward punch."

[josejherring]

Thanks for suggestion, Jose. It's a difficult thing to do when you already chose the instruments for a particular piece.

There comes a time in everybody's musical development when they realize that they just can't run amok with passion as the only guide in choosing instrumentation and constructing a piece.

The art of music itself has a certain logic to it that must be followed or you get into the kind of trouble that you're experiencing in this piece. But the cool thing is, is that if you learn that logic well enough you'll be able to do anything you want with music. Just look at some of Miles Davis's work especially during the "cool" period. Incredibly structured, great instrumentation, original as hell.

So don't be married to any one thing and then say that's it. Change that piece around until you find something that works for you. It's obviously not working for you or you wouldn't have asked for help. It's not just the mix, but it can be fixed.

We've all been there when something isn't quite working out to well. I use to blame the equipment until one day I woke up and realized that the equipment was fine; it was my writing in certain respects that need improving. Once you reach that point then you can call yourself a pro, because then you'll rewrite and rewrite and rewrite and experiment with a piece until you got something that's killer. Until you reach that point you'll fall into the trap of trying to get something to work that maybe isn't going to work---frustration sets in and then the feeling of hopelessness, ect.

Rework the musical elements until you've got something that you think sounds professional then finish it off with a killer mix. But until you got some killer music that hangs together all on its own, until then, if you try to mix, you'll just end up amplifying the faults in instrumentation and composition which is what's happening in this piece.

Jose

[sfiks]

To me, it's just all about the sounds. They're all rather hollowed, slick, sounds...so you don't get the forward punch...
I think this says all.
Thank you all for taking time to listen and respond.

[scottnorma]

Quantum Leap Brass has some really good saxes. In fact, they are the only thing I actually like in that set.

[Edi]

The biggest shortcoming of samples is that they haven't got a clue what it is you are trying to express with your composition.


------------
Alex Cremers

Excellent!

Still, when musicians do not know what you want, it is even more painful. :)

Ed