DPDan's Schumann Piano Concerto - COMPARISON OF GPO & REAL ORCHESTRA!

[DPDAN]

Here are a few snippets from my rendition of Clara Schumann's Piano Concerto In A Minor, Opus 7 that I did for a client who is a GPO owner and also has Digital Performer. He hired me to replicate a particular audio CD recording of a real orchestra performing this piece. He will use this GOS/GPO "track" to play along with. I can't say that this one was done by ear, I am learning how to read music, but My Mom (bless her heart) played in much of the parts. Of course, thanks to Digital Performer and all of it's incredible features that allowed this 22 minute piece to be completed in a little over two weeks.

The piano that you hear going in and out in these MP3 demos is the piano from the audio CD recording of the "real orchestra". As soon as the GOS/GPO Orchestra comes in, I turn the piano way down. All sounds are Garritan except the timpani which is from Vienna demos included with Gigastudio GS3 Orchestra.

The track named "compare and save" is crossfading quickly between me and the real recording. Have a listen... it shows just how close GPO and GOS can come to replacing a real "recorded" orchestra.

The client will send me the stereo recording of himself playing the piece on his Uncle's huge real grand piano in New York late March, at which time I will add this in, then it will be done!

GOS is so amazing, the alternating up/down bows are to die for, not to mention the amazing selection of articulations. Thank you Gary!

snippet 1 (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Track%201.mp3)
snippet 2 (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Track%202.mp3)
snippet 3 (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Track%203.mp3)
snippet 4 (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Track%204.mp3)
snippet 5 (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Track%205.mp3)
compare and save (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/compare%20and%20save%20remix.mp3)

dpDan

[brasspig]

Wow! The Compare and Save track is REALLY COOL! Garritan really blends/matches that orchestra. So cool to hear a direct comparison as you've done here.

Great work with the sequencing. Sounds like a very interesting project.

Do you have templates set up with GPO and DP?

Fellow DP user here,

Brasspig

[Rhap2]

DPDAN:

A great undertaking and one of the best comparisons to a real orchestra that I have heard. Even Robert Schumann would be amazed at hearing this. You wouldn't be able to convince him it wasn't a real symphony playing nearby.

Great Work! This needs to be heard by all of those people that have any doubts about how real GPO can be...........

Jack

[Fabio]

If you are not a crazy man fooling us all, I can't believe to my ears...

But be careful, if it's a joke, it's the more improper trick people can imagine...and I hope that Gary may reveal it...

If it's real, please let me know what's your job, and why you are "just" learning music... :confused:

Who writes (me...;-) has experience in classical music recreation, but what you did is unbelievable for me too.......and I read and write music very very well.... :o

[Christopher Duncan]

Whoa.

Dan, that's really something to hear. Very, very cool, man.

[DPDAN]

Thank you very much guys. It's no joke, since I had to replicate or duplicate the audio CD recording, the very first thing I did after opening a new project in Digital Performer, was to copy all three movements from the audio CD into a stereo audio track. From the very first note played to the last timpani hit, had to match as closely as possible the original recording. I was not able to use any conductor/tempo track at all since audio tracks can not follow a conductor track. All the feeling and timing was created through the intricate placement of every note by hand with the trackball, and many features in DP.

So, it goes without saying, (although I am going to say it).... :)
the original CD track was always there along for the ride, "in sync" with my GOS/GPO orchestra.
When I sent the demo pieces to the client, I decided it would be really cool for him to hear just how close I got, which is why I made compare and save (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/compare%20and%20save%20remix.mp3) a little joke there, which crossfades quickly between me and the real recording.

After I had come home from FedEx, I emailed the client these links and referred to the links as little teasers that he could listen to before the next morning when his CD would arrive.

With all humbleness and meekness, I received this email from him...

Dan:

"Unbelievable" is an over-used word. But that is the only word that comes to mind when I hear your teaser.

Can't wait to hear your final version.

Fred

Thanks so much for your kind compliments everyone, and Don, I will be posting soon a picture of the tracks window from the DP project which is the template that I used for this project.

dpDan

[dnortana]

This is simply stunning.

Trond

[Larry G. Alexander]

That is truly amazing! Thanks for the "compare and save" demo. It is mind-boggling.

Regards,

Larry A.

[Styxx]

Wow Dan these are fantastic! Now I want GOS. Wow again and again! So real and full of articulation!

[Karl Garrett]

Hey guys,

Have you ever wondered why Dan doesn't post a picture of himself? That's because he has these huge musical ears and brain that have for years vacuumed up everything musical that has come within ten miles of him. And now that GPO has come into his life, he has no choice but to regurgitate all those lovely sounds back for us to hear. He is a man possessed. He can't help it. There is nothing we can do to stop him. He will go on forever rendering astonishing realism with GPO and GOS.

God help us all, :D:D:D

Karl

[SeanHannifin]

:eek: Holy cow! That is awesome! I really can't tell the difference in the "compare and save" track . . . that's amazing, you did an astounding job! Brilliant!

[Garritan]

Dan,

Absolutely amazing! What a fantastic A/B comparison

Your skills are superb and you just keep getting better. Looking forward to seeing your DP Project template.

Thanks for posting this Dan,

Gary

PS: Give your mom a big thank you from me :)

[Jeff Turner]

This is amazing. And that "compare & save" track, I can't hear a difference.
I need to take ear-training lessons from Dan. He's got this stuff nailed.

JT

[Styxx]

And rightly so! Dan ROCKS with his work! Love this immensely! The compare and save is the best sales promo this lib could have by far! Unbelievable, however there is one thing that's really bothering me. I still can't tell which of the voices is really Dan or symphonic sample Dan? :D

[stevegoers]

wow. and again, wow. well done, Dan.

wow.

[Garritan]

Hard to believe that Clara Schumman (l8l9-l896) wrote this at age 14! She was one of the most famous pianists of her time and one of the great stars of 19th-century musical Europe. She premiered new works by Frederic Chopin, Johannes Brahms, and her husband Robert Schumann.

[David Collett]

DPDan - do I understand you correctly that the piano we are hearing is off the original audio CD (from the audio track that you imported to DP)?

If so, how did you isolate just the piano so well?

Also, I have GPO, but not GOS. Is there a "huge" difference? Could you have achieved this same quality using only GPO?

If not, what would the differences be? (In other words, using GPO only, what would have sounded worse and why?)

Thanks!

David

[tradivoro]

Hey Dan, that is fantastic work, and the fact that you had to do it to a recording and not to midi click is even more amazing... Hats off to you... :)

[DPDAN]

DPDan - do I understand you correctly that the piano we are hearing is off the original audio CD (from the audio track that you imported to DP)?
If so, how did you isolate just the piano so well?

Holy Cow everyone, ummm well, let me answer David's legitimate questions.
Yes, the piano that is on the "compare and save" MP3, is indeed the piano from the actual audio CD recording of the real orchestra. I will have to go out on a limb here to say that the piano was way too loud in my opinion on this recording, even though it is a Piano Concerto. I allowed the piano to peak through in areas where the mix of the recording had way too much piano for these little MP3 snippet demos. You will notice that I have to quickly turn down the piano so as to not interfere with the purpose of the demo itself.


Also, I have GPO, but not GOS. Is there a "huge" difference? Could you have achieved this same quality using only GPO?

If not, what would the differences be? (In other words, using GPO only, what would have sounded worse and why?)
Thanks!

David

That's a great question because from what I understand, GPO's "string" sectional sounds are derived from the GOS recording sessions. So, as far as the sound quality goes (fidelity, frequency response etc.), I think they are probably the same, if not very close.

I believe the difference lies in the fact that GOS just simply has a ton of articulations to choose from. Certainly, GPO has much fewer articulations. Gary Garritan, Tom Hopkins and Jeff Hurchalla and all the other wonderful people that made these libraries, had to decide what GPO would have, and what would simply have to be left out in order to fit. Heck, the amazing amount of different sounds that Violins alone can make is unreal! I feel that it is imperative that a careful choice be made from the many selections of samples during the process of assembling a midi orchestra. The same thing has to take place in using GPO, but the hidden beauty in GPO, is that the user is faced with fewer choices, and that's a very good productive thing. I believe that is perhaps GPO's greatest feature of all. There's nothing worse than being in front of a shelf full of candy with only 78 cents to spend, I know I should have said 5 bucks. :) these days anyway.

With GPO, you can go to the candy store with a few bucks, and walk out with a little bit of every candy bar in the place for just 250. Ultimately, the answer to your question, NO, I will be honest and say that I could not have achieved the quality of sound in the strings with only GPO. I don't think Gary nor anyone that is intimately familiar with GOS would ever suggest that. The difference in cost is significant. Don't be sad though, I hear the new GPO edition is going to have many more articulations in the instruments that are already in GPO! Cool! Cool! Cool!

There have been many comments on this forum that I chuckle at, when I read that someone wanted to try brand X sounds to see if they would work well together with GPO or some other library. Funny, any library will work together. It is totally up to the user to determine whether or not the sound is "AS GOOD" as the standard of quality that has been established or presented before this "Brand X" instrument comes in and sings.
Thanks for these questions,,, trust your ears, and take the time to nitpick the "you know what" out of your midi production.

I will be posting the template that I used in Digital Performer 4.5 shortly.
Thanks for listening! I can't wait to get a piano on this baby! :D
dpDan

[David Collett]

dpDan - thanks for your reply.

I'm very new to GPO. I'm using a Mac G4 with DP 4.5.2. I believe that Gigastudio is only for PCs, right? If later I decide to go the GOS route, do I have options for the Mac?

Thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing the templates for DP. I'm sure I'll learn a lot.

David

[DPDAN]

Hi David, you are correct, Gigastudio is for PC only, I too love my Mac G4 and dp. A friend was over the other day and said "wow, all this from a sound engineer who hated computers a year ago" ,,, :) he he he.

I was a PC user for about three years for word processing, invoices and internet use, then I fell in love with dp so I was forced to buy a Mac. I had always heard amazing things about Macs.... it's all true. I like both PC and Macs, I could not do what I do without both. it's also very good to be familiar with both platforms I think. Glad to help you out David!

dpDan

[David Collett]

dpDan (or anyone else who can offer advice):

Because I use a Mac, would MOTU's MachFive or Kontakt be an option to use GOS, or is the only way to get a PC, get Giga, then get GOS?

Are others here using MachFive, Kontakt, or other SW (???) to run GOS on a Mac?

Obviously, lots of great GS stuff is out there, but I really don't want two systems. I'm too Mac invested, and I'd rather spend my $$ on great samples than a PC.

Recommendations? Suggestions? Thanks.

David

[DPDAN]

I've just finished listening again and I still can not get over how realistic and alive this sounds. It honestly sends shivers down my spine.

When are we getting a Master Class from you? *laughs*

Wow. :eek:

Thank you Neo! I see you are a late night owl too :)
This is the template that I set up in Digital Performer for this project.
dpDan

http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/top11.jpg
http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/bottom11.jpg

[Karl Garrett]

Thank you Neo! I see you are a late night owl too :)
This is the template that I set up in Digital Performer for this project.
dpDan

http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/top11.jpg
http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/bottom11.jpg

Aint it perrrtty and classy too. Just gotta love dat DP & DPDAN. Yaaahoo!

[Karl Garrett]

I've just finished listening again and I still can not get over how realistic and alive this sounds. It honestly sends shivers down my spine.

When are we getting a Master Class from you? *laughs*

Wow. :eek:

Remember that Dan although new to GPO (within the past year or so) like most of us, has had 10,000 years of experience as an audio engineer. During those 10,000 years, he has developed the most important skill that any musician can possess---the art of listening.

This is why, when I became brain dead from working on Peter and the Wolf, I asked him to give it a listen. Of course I couldn't help slipping in some little, almost inaudible noises just for laughs. The man got 'em all. We've just got to keep this guy humble. :D:D So not too much praise guys or the next time he might charge me. :D:D

[BermudaFlyer]

I've finally had a listen to that comparison demo... it's amazing. I think Gary should definately have it on his GPO demo page. :cool:

[DPDAN]

We've just got to keep this guy humble. :D:D So not too much praise guys or the next time he might charge me. :D:D

Humble I will always be,... thank you Karl :)

David, forgive me for not responding to your question about playing GOS on your Mac. Karl Garrett uses GOS with MOTU's Mack 5 sample player with great results. You can hear some GOS in Karl's Peter and the Wolf (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/larkg/Peter%20and%20the%20Wolf%20(Final%20MIX).mp3) that he just finished. GOS comes with a separate program called Marble Sound (Maestro Tools) that controls the midi going into Gigastudio. This allows the up and down bows to alternate. Gary Garritan was smart (of course) :) and included additional choices in GOS for those without a PC because Marble Sound is PC only. So, if you don't want to get a PC, dive in head first, get MOTU's Mach 5 sampler, and GOS from Gary and you will be stylin'!

A very special thank you to all these good folks who took the time to listen, and post comments that make me feel so blessed! It is an honor to receive so many compliments when there are so many demos posted every day.
It's easy to miss some. Anyway, thank you everybody!

In case a few have wondered, I am not in any way associated with MOTU's Digital Performer, but I have to give them a huge thank you for their unbelieveable software and audio/midi components! And thanks big time to "Magic" Dave at MOTU.

Dan Kury

Thanks everyone!

Don/brasspig
Jack/Rhap 2
Fabio
Christopher
Trond/dnortana
Neotypic
Larry
Styxx
Karl
Sean
Gary
Jeff
Steve
David
Tradivoro
Steve/bermudaflyer

[Hardy Heern]

That's brilliant Deepee.....that's the real proof of the competency of GPO (and you) when comparing A vs B with a real orchestra.

We rest our case!

Frank

[David Collett]

Thanks for replying dpDan about this issue. I'll talk with Karl to find out more info.

[David Collett]

dpDan -- another question:

Did you enter the notes for all the instruments using your keyboard, Quickscribe, Overture, or another method?

Thanks.

David

[DPDAN]

dpDan -- another question:

Did you enter the notes for all the instruments using your keyboard, Quickscribe, Overture, or another method?

Thanks.

David
Yamaha KX-88 controller/keyboard into the sequence editor window, and only a couple dozen notes were put in with the trackball.

Thanks David!

Thank you Frank for your compliments, as always, they are very valued and appreciated.


Dan

[Karl Garrett]

Thanks for replying dpDan about this issue. I'll talk with Karl to find out more info.

David, MachFive as well as Kontakt translates giga format samples. Don't get me wrong, it can't do anything with Maestro Tools. That is a horse of a different color. I have found GOS extremely useful for articulations that at this time are not available in GPO.

In Peter, that Dan Mentioned above, I used the little 1/2-step violin slides that come with GOS in between notes from the GPO violins. You can hear these in the section about half way through the piece in the sad string lament just after the Wolf eats the duck. If anyone is interested I can post exactly how it was done.

I have separated the midi files out as well as the Overture score sections, and they will be made available soon for anyone who has the will to immerse themselves in them.

The other place where I used GOS is in the procession near the end. I used the calegno articulations. They are easily heard. Without GOS, I could not have been nearly as expressive and score accurate as I was. As has been said a number of times on this forum it is important to have a number of libraries at one's disposel.

Thanks,

Karl

[David Collett]

David, MachFive as well as Kontakt translates giga format samples. I have found GOS extremely useful for articulations that at this time are not available in GPO.


Hi, Karl. Thanks for jumping in right away to explain this. I'm glad to know that MachFive and Kontakt are both solutions for Mac users who want to use GOS.

Two related questions, that perhaps you, dpDan, or others in this forum can answer:

1. Which of the two (MachFive or Kontakt) would you recommend, and why?

2. I've read (somewhere) that Garritan will (soon?) be releasing a "Pro" version of GPO – any idea if this would be a near equivalent of GOS? If so, would it make sense for me to that route rather than GOS?




In Peter, I used the little 1/2-step violin slides that come with GOS in between notes from the GPO violins. You can hear these in the section about half way through the piece in the sad string lament just after the Wolf eats the duck. If anyone is interested I can post exactly how it was done.


I would LOVE to hear how you did this, Karl. Trying to learn not only orchestration, but also how to use GPO to achieve 'realistic' orchestral parts is difficult. It's really great that you and dpDan (and I'm sure others here) are willing to share templates, MIDI files, Overture files, etc. so the rest of us can study them.



I have separated the midi files out as well as the Overture score sections, and they will be made available soon for anyone who has the will to immerse themselves in them.


Ditto for this, Karl. I'd love to see the MIDI and Overture files - anything that you are willing to share would be a wonderful resource for beginners like me! Thanks!

David

[Garritan]

**bump**.......................................... ...............................

[Karl Garrett]

David,

I have collected the midi and Overture files in some kind of order. There are some 80 little files that go along with Peter and the Wolf. I just haven't figured out yet how to display them so it would make some sense to you.

I will also, next week, do a little snippet on inserting GOS string slides along with GPO string tracks. It's not hard. The key is as the narrator in Peter and the Wolf says at the end: "If you listen very carefully, you can here the duck crying inside the wolf..." The key is to listen, analyze, listen again and experiment.

Karl

[tcohen]

Outstanding job, DPDan... compareandsave is an excellent comparison, it indeed is a testament to this program. Congratulations and super work!

Tim

[RickD]

Wow DP Dan, that's simply amazing! I'm continually amazed by how musical your work sounds. And your engineering skills are to die for! Now I'm thinking it's time to dust off GOS and bring it back to the fold. :)

Rick

[synthnut]

Great Stuff Dan !!......Nice job mom !!..........I love hearing what can be done with this program especially work's done this well .....Sincerely, Jim

[DPDAN]

Thank you Tim, Rick and Jim..... your compliments are so generous!

I have remixed the entire piece, and I am actually happy with it.
I can't wait for you all to hear it when it gets the piano, which is what it's all about! I can't believe that I turned 49 a month ago, and have never in my life heard this piece by Clara Schumann. It's absolutely gorgeous. The mood and emotion swings back and forth, it's just an amazing piece of writing and arranging by her and her husband.

Like my new avatar picture? I emailed "MAGIC" Dave at MOTU, (Mark Of The Unicorn) maker of Digital Performer, asking his permission to use it,..
his response was, "post it with pride!"

Again, a very humble thanks to you all, and Gary,... what can I say?
You're an amazing person!
dpDan

[synergy543]

Hi Dan,

Quite amazing. Even your ambience is identical! How did you do that?

Would it be possible for you to post the same section of both the original orchestra and your version (or at least a section) for an A/B comparison?

Also, I was just wondering why didn't you use the Beat Dectection engine in DP? You should be able to analyze the audio track and create a tempo map that matches the audio track. Did you try this?

Another DP guy,

Greg

[Karl Garrett]

Hi Greg,

I have fooled around with the Beat Detection in DP. Had good success when there were clear rhythmic patterns to set the meter, such as in pop or jazz, but in classical tracks, it has been not so wonderful due to the absence of clear meter. This could be my not taking the time to work with it enough.

Karl

[synergy543]

Hi Greg,

I have fooled around with the Beat Detection in DP. Had good success when there were clear rhythmic patterns to set the meter, such as in pop or jazz, but in classical tracks, it has been not so wonderful due to the absence of clear meter. This could be my not taking the time to work with it enough.

KarlHi Karl,

I don't imagine it would be all automated however it could be a useful tool to help build a tempo map to an existing track. I haven't tried it yet myself but I could see how having a matching tempo map in such a case would be very useful.

Greg

[DPDAN]

Hi Dan,

Quite amazing. Even your ambience is identical! How did you do that?

Brace yourself, you better go get a Pepsi.... :D I really just set my old Lexicon 200 reverb to a setting that I liked, and went from there. I was talking with Gary the other day, and told him that I would not expect anyone to believe me when I said this, but I am going to say it anyway. I don't mean for this to sound boastful, but not once did I listen to, or refer to the original recording once I started mixing. I wanted to be the director. After I was done mixing, I wanted to see how close GOS/GPO and I came to duplicating the recording. I was pleasantly surprised. After I was happy with the placement and velocity of every single note, I was ready for the fun to begin!

I recorded every note of each instruments' part or section, into it's own single stereo audio track in DP. Gigastudio GS3 Orchestra for Garritan Orchestra Strings, and Garritan Personal Orchestra for everything else, except timpani which is from the Vienna demo samples that were included with GS3 Orchestra. I always want to be able to access the separate audio tracks in the future, with or without the midi gear. In other words, all the different articulations from the many various midi tracks for 1st violins were now all in one stereo audio track. Same with everything else.

Lexicon 200 Reverb... http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/Lexicon%20and%20828r%20017.jpg

I set up an aux send for every track, and assigned each of them to bus 1. Bus 1 would then be assigned to the input of a stereo aux track for sending audio to the Lexicon reverb for monitoring during the mixing process. This aux track output was assigned to analog 1 of the MOTU 828 MK2. This sent the analog signal (bus 1 aux sends) to one of the Lexicon reverb inputs. The lexicon reverb stereo outputs were then connected to analog inputs 7-8 of the MOTU 828 MK2. Once back inside dp, I set up yet another stereo aux track, and assigned analog 7-8 to it's inputs. This would finally be my "live Lexicon reverb return" for monitoring while mixing.

It's very important to mix with reverb running live. The acoustics of the concert hall or room where classical oriented music is played, is an integral part of the sound, so, your mix probably won't sound realistic if you just add it at the end. Could you imagine a great pipe organ in a small room, yuk! Half of the beauty of any large pipe organ is the room it's in.

It is also important to note that these "stereo aux tracks" that I have mentioned here, are not recordable audio tracks, but just a stereo volume control (or bus) to control signal flow/chain. Later, I set up a stereo "audio track" to record the Lexicon reverb, but only after all the fader automation movements are just right. If I had the new version of Altiverb 5 for the MAC and dp, I would not have had to go through all this trouble with all these additional auxes, but hey, the sound of the Lexicon is so amazing. In the future, with Altiverb, I will set up only one stereo aux track for reverb, and insert Altiverb in it. Of course I would still record the reverb to an audio track. I'm kinda nuts that way.

Time To Mix...
When I say time to mix, I mean it's time to start the fader automation for every single track.

Here's a little funny sidenote, my (RA) Rheumatoid Arthritis was so bad those few days, my hands were so swollen and racked with pain, one of my medications was backordered for over a month and I was getting bad. Normally I'm not that bad, but I knew I would not be able to stand using the trackball for all this automation programming. So I used the "attach midi controller" feature that is in the mixing board's mini menu of dp, and connected a foot operated volume pedal to my KX-88 keyboard. This allowed me to use the foot operated volume pedal to do all the fader moves. In dp you simply click the mouse, (or trackball in my case) on any volume fader or pan that you want to control with a midi device, and it begins to flash red and waits to "hear" midi information, I moved the pedal and whalla! The pedal now controls 1st violins audio fader for automation. I am so excited about dp can you tell? Literally, this is how user friendly dp is. Ahhhhhh relief! :) Thanks MOTU! (http://www.motu.com/)

I started the fader automation by listening to the first violins all by themselves, (without listening to the original CD track) just as though I was listening to the 1st violins' microphones in solo mode. After that, onto second violins, except this pass, I would indeed listen to the first and second violins for balance/blend purposes. This process continued all the way through to basses. Once the strings were all balanced and sounding nice, I would continue fader automation for flute 1, while also listening to the strings, again for balance purposes. After flute 1 track was automated, I muted all the strings, and listen to flute 1 while automating the fader for flute 2, balancing the two flutes harmonies. After the flutes, onto oboe 1 the same way, listening to the two flutes, and automating the fader for the first oboe, relative to the flutes, eventually completing all the fader automation for every instrument. After all this was done, of course there was still some individual tweaking that was needed to balance/blend instruments.

Setting up Groups for the instruments...
I set up three stereo aux tracks to be used as group volume faders. The first group would be all five strings tracks, (1st and 2nd violin, violas, cellos and basses) The second group fader would be used for all woodwind instruments, (flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon) and a third group for brass (french horns, trumpets, trombone). The timpani, solo violin and solo cello went directly to the main mix. These groups allowed me to maintain my individual fader automation "balance of harmonies", but now I had the convenience of balancing the three main sections, strings, woods & brass. Of course these faders were automated as well.

These three stereo groups also had an aux send assigned to the same (bus 1) for Lexicon reverb. In many passages, I would automate the aux send knob on these groups to accurately blend more reverb to the instruments' group for certain phrases, of course, this is something that simply would not be possible in a real acoustic environment, but can be taken advantage of in simulating a real performance. Hey, it's technology, so I'll take what I can get and run with it! :p

Time to "kick it up a notch" right? BAMB! BAMB! BAMB!
EQ, compression, expand, de-ess, limit, and we can't forget to excite it with an aural exciter. Those are all very fine plugins that I use alot, and are very useful for other types of music as Karl Garrett mentioned like pop, rock, jazz funk, you get the idea, but these plugins are not at all desirable for this type of project, IMHO. I am not one of those esoteric, purist type of engineers that stick their noses up in the air and say stuff like..."I only cut EQ, I never boost". I say, put that knob sucker thingy wherever it has to go to make it sound right, and be done with it. :rolleyes: With that said, absolutley no EQ or any audio processing of any kind was used in this project except the Lexicon reverb.
Awe yea Babe, this is classical music! :)


Would it be possible for you to post the same section of both the original orchestra and your version (or at least a section) for an A/B comparison?

As you wish :)

"all Garritan version" (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/allGarritan.mp3)

little piano (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/littlepiano.mp3)

original CD (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/originalCD.mp3)

Feel free to download these and place the all Garritan mp3 and the original CD mp3 into two stereo audio tracks in your DAW, sync them up, and have some fun, compare and save with Garritan! :) OK enough's enough.


Also, I was just wondering why didn't you use the Beat Dectection engine in DP? You should be able to analyze the audio track and create a tempo map that matches the audio track. Did you try this?

No I didn't try it. I assure you, there is not enough serious punchy bass in the recording, and there would be no way for dp to make any sense out of the audio track. Beat detection is a valuable feature in some cases, but not with something like this. Sometimes you just have to dig in and get dirty.


Another DP guy,

Greg

Another dp guy, cool cool cool!
Thank you Greg. I know you got alot more information here than you asked for, but hopefully sharing this with those interested will perhaps try some of these ideas and end up being happier with their musical results.

Thanks everyone for your time, and happy listening!

dpDan

[synergy543]

Brace yourself, you better go get a Pepsi.... :D I really just set my old Lexicon 200 reverb to a setting that I liked, and went from there. Pretty amazing Dan. My guess is the samples are fairly dry but still have a fair amount of early reflections (ER) in the recordings and together with the Lexicon makes for quite a good emulation!


I was talking with Gary the other day, and told him that I would not expect anyone to believe me when I said this, but I am going to say it anyway. I don't mean for this to sound boastful, but not once did I listen to, or refer to the original recording once I started mixing. I wanted to be the director. After I was done mixing, I wanted to see how close GOS/GPO and I came to duplicating the recording. I was pleasantly surprised. After I was happy with the placement and velocity of every single note, I was ready for the fun to begin! You must have done a fair amount of A/B comps as you were selecting sounds and laying down tracks or you couldn't have gotten that close.


I recorded every note of each instruments' part or section, into it's own single stereo audio track in DP. Gigastudio GS3 Orchestra for Garritan Orchestra Strings, and Garritan Personal Orchestra for everything else, except timpani which is from the Vienna demo samples that were included with GS3 Orchestra. I always want to be able to access the separate audio tracks in the future, with or without the midi gear. In other words, all the different articulations from the many various midi tracks for 1st violins were now all in one stereo audio track. Same with everything else. That's a great idea. I wish I'd have done this with some of my older projects as they'd be virtually impossible to re-create now. I'd have to be willing to connect a rat's nest of cables and machines but wouldn't even know where to begin as its not documented and I no longer have access to the software I was using back then. This is something I wonder about....what will happen when we want to re-create pieces with our orchestral software plugins 10 years from now? Will we have access or will these become the Opcode Studio (defunct software) of the future? Regardless, audio tracks are a good idea. What a job archiving though!

One question, you mixed instruments to mono tracks? So you had to re-create the placement on the stage for each instrument track? Sorry, I don't have Garritan yet (waiting for next version to be released and using QLSO now) but aren't the instruments situated already in the stereo field as they would be on stage?


It's very important to mix with reverb running live. The acoustics of the concert hall or room where classical oriented music is played, is an integral part of the sound, so, your mix probably won't sound realistic if you just add it at the end. Could you imagine a great pipe organ in a small room, yuk! Half of the beauty of any large pipe organ is the room it's in.Agreed. The room and the instrument play upon each other just as a distortion box does for the guitar and the guitarist is inspired by the distortion box!.


It is also important to note that these "stereo aux tracks" that I have mentioned here, are not recordable audio tracks, but just a stereo volume control (or bus) to control signal flow/chain. Later, I set up a stereo "audio track" to record the Lexicon reverb, but only after all the fader automation movements are just right. If I had the new version of Altiverb 5 for the MAC and dp, I would not have had to go through all this trouble with all these additional auxes, but hey, the sound of the Lexicon is so amazing. In the future, with Altiverb, I will set up only one stereo aux track for reverb, and insert Altiverb in it. Of course I would still record the reverb to an audio track. I'm kinda nuts that way.OK, so you're recording instruments to mono tracks. But then you're recording just a single reverb track for the entire piece right? Altiverb 5 has some interesting capabilities to place the instruments on stage. I'm not quite sure how its implemented as you obviously can't change the E/Rs in a convolution reverb without taking multiple samples and I know this isn't the approach being taken in Altiverb 5. But it does bring up the question about how to track reverb then....hmmmm. Stereo reverb tracks for each orchestral instrument would be a bit much!


Time To Mix...
When I say time to mix, I mean it's time to start the fader automation for every single track.

Here's a little funny sidenote, my (RA) Rheumatoid Arthritis was so bad those few days, my hands were so swollen and racked with pain, one of my medications was backordered for over a month and I was getting bad. Normally I'm not that bad, but I knew I would not be able to stand using the trackball for all this automation programming. So I used the "attach midi controller" feature that is in the mixing board's mini menu of dp, and connected a foot operated volume pedal to my KX-88 keyboard. This allowed me to use the foot operated volume pedal to do all the fader moves.I'd find it hard to get the accuracy with my foot that I have with my hands but you did a great job.


I started the fader automation by listening to the first violins all by themselves, (without listening to the original CD track) just as though I was listening to the 1st violins' microphones in solo mode. After that, onto second violins, except this pass, I would indeed listen to the first and second violins for balance/blend purposes. This process continued all the way through to basses. Once the strings were all balanced and sounding nice, I would continue fader automation for flute 1, while also listening to the strings, again for balance purposes. After flute 1 track was automated, I muted all the strings, and listen to flute 1 while automating the fader for flute 2, balancing the two flutes harmonies. After the flutes, onto oboe 1 the same way, listening to the two flutes, and automating the fader for the first oboe, relative to the flutes, eventually completing all the fader automation for every instrument. After all this was done, of course there was still some individual tweaking that was needed to balance/blend instruments.Yeah, live players get to interact to balance in realtime. With virtual instruments its a one-way conversation and requires some juggling.


Setting up Groups for the instruments...
I set up three stereo aux tracks to be used as group volume faders. The first group would be all five strings tracks, (1st and 2nd violin, violas, cellos and basses) The second group fader would be used for all woodwind instruments, (flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon) and a third group for brass (french horns, trumpets, trombone). The timpani, solo violin and solo cello went directly to the main mix. These groups allowed me to maintain my individual fader automation "balance of harmonies", but now I had the convenience of balancing the three main sections, strings, woods & brass. Of course these faders were automated as well. OK so you mixed a good balance of all instruments in a section and then later mixed all of the sections as well. Got it. Good idea. I would think it might be interesting to try adding a reverb for each section. This might be a good way to utilize the stage location feature of Altiverb 5.



These three stereo groups also had an aux send assigned to the same (bus 1) for Lexicon reverb. In many passages, I would automate the aux send knob on these groups to accurately blend more reverb to the instruments' group for certain phrases, of course, this is something that simply would not be possible in a real acoustic environment, but can be taken advantage of in simulating a real performance. Hey, it's technology, so I'll take what I can get and run with it! :p Fifteen years ago, I used to use hardware FX with an effect box on each synth and I'd use MIDI automation for many effects parameters. Everything including levels was totally automated. This was back in the days of Performer 2.7.


Time to "kick it up a notch" right? BAMB! BAMB! BAMB!
EQ, compression, expand, de-ess, limit, and we can't forget to excite it with an aural exciter. Those are all very fine plugins that I use alot, and are very useful for other types of music as Karl Garrett mentioned like pop, rock, jazz funk, you get the idea, but these plugins are not at all desirable for this type of project, IMHO. I am not one of those esoteric, purist type of engineers that stick their noses up in the air and say stuff like..."I only cut EQ, I never boost". I say, put that knob sucker thingy wherever it has to go to make it sound right, and be done with it. :rolleyes: With that said, absolutley no EQ or any audio processing of any kind was used in this project except the Lexicon reverb.
Awe yea Babe, this is classical music! :) Well, I guess you could argue that the Lexicon FX is also somewhat of a "purist" approach too as its the box often used to "add" ambience to real orchestral recordings!

Talk about reality distortion....


As you wish :)

"all Garritan" version (me) (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/allGarritan.mp3)

little piano (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/littlepiano.mp3)

original CD (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/originalCD.mp3)

Feel free to download these and place the all Garritan mp3 and the original CD mp3 into two stereo audio tracks in your DAW, sync them up, and have some fun, compare and save with Garritan! :) OK enough's enough. OK I'll admit I was a bit of a skeptic with your "Compare" example but now I can clearly hear the comparison. You've really done an excellent job. Thanks very much for posting these.




No I didn't try it. I assure you, there is not enough serious punchy bass in the recording, and there would be no way for dp to make any sense out of the audio track. Beat detection is a valuable feature in some cases, but not with something like this. Sometimes you just have to dig in and get dirty.
So did you create a tempo map to match by hand? Or did you just run "free-flow"? I guess, I'd be inclined to make a "click track" and then adjust a tempo map to match the recorded music. Either way, its a tricky task!



Another dp guy, cool cool cool!
Thank you Greg. I know you got alot more information here than you asked for, but hopefully sharing this with those interested will perhaps try some of these ideas and end up being happier with their musical results.

Thanks everyone for your time, and happy listening!

dpDanDan, thanks very much for sharing in detail. Its been quite interesting and I hope I didn't flood you with more feedback than you were expecting!

Cheers,

Gregory D. Moore

[DPDAN]

In case some of you didn't want to read that lenghty post I made, here is another section to listen to

"all Garritan version" (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/allGarritan.mp3)

little piano (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/littlepiano.mp3)

original CD (http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/originalCD.mp3)

dpDan

[DPDAN]

My guess is the samples are fairly dry but still have a fair amount of early reflections (ER) in the recordings and together with the Lexicon makes for quite a good emulation!
The samples are very dry with no early reflections.


You must have done a fair amount of A/B comps as you were selecting sounds and laying down tracks or you couldn't have gotten that close. Well, yes sometimes. I had the piece pretty much memorized by the time the notes were being played in, and I separated the notes into the correct sounding midi track after they were played in, for the strings at least.


That's a great idea. I wish I'd have done this with some of my older projects as they'd be virtually impossible to re-create now. I'd have to be willing to connect a rat's nest of cables and machines but wouldn't even know where to begin as its not documented and I no longer have access to the software I was using back then. This is something I wonder about....what will happen when we want to re-create pieces with our orchestral software plugins 10 years from now? Will we have access or will these become the Opcode Studio (defunct software) of the future? Regardless, audio tracks are a good idea. What a job archiving though!

I think in ten years we will not have any desire to use these programs. Look at the technology change in just the last year, WOW!
As far as archiving goes, I don't look at "recording to audio tracks" as time spent archiving, it is the only way I like to mix, personlly, but you're right, it is ultimately a form of archiving, and that's a good thing!


One question, you mixed instruments to mono tracks? I'm not sure where you read that I use mono tracks. Always stereo. The samples in GOS are actual stereo samples of the sectional sounds. GPO on the other hand are mostly mono samples that are panned left to right in a natural or typical panorama setting. The Steinway piano and some instruments are however stereo in GPO.


So you had to re-create the placement on the stage for each instrument track? Sorry, I don't have Garritan yet (waiting for next version to be released and using QLSO now) but aren't the instruments situated already in the stereo field as they would be on stage? I did indeed set my own panning for just about every instrument. But yes, as I just mentioned, in GPO the panning is already done for you, if it's what you want.


Agreed. The room and the instrument play upon each other just as a distortion box does for the guitar and the guitarist is inspired by the distortion box!. That's true, I can definately see your analogy, but a distortion box for a guitar is only an affect on that instrument. The quality of the simulated reverb that we all use is critical to insinuating a real performance, where the guitar is good with or without a distortion box, it all depends on the sound needed for the song, but I get your idea.


OK, so you're recording instruments to mono tracks. No,
But then you're recording just a single reverb track for the entire piece right? Yes,
Altiverb 5 has some interesting capabilities to place the instruments on stage. I'm not quite sure how its implemented as you obviously can't change the E/Rs in a convolution reverb without taking multiple samples and I know this isn't the approach being taken in Altiverb 5. But it does bring up the question about how to track reverb then....hmmmm. Stereo reverb tracks for each orchestral instrument would be a bit much! well, yes a bit much but, if you are talking about Impulse Response reverberation (IR) then it would be very logical and beneficial to use a separate reverb for each of the three sections. I think of it like this... I know the director is not the ideal place to hear the orchestra from, (for a recording) but he has to be that close to communicate his body and facial expressions to the players. Strings are closest to the X-Y microphones, and they would have minimal reverb, the woodwinds a little more distant, and the percussion way back there with the brass. That is the beauty of the IR reverbs, like Gigastudio's G-Pulse, the magical setting is called "perspective". Of course being able to place an instrument on the stage where it would be heard from, is a very beautiful thing, but I know of no one that has enough processing power or computers to have a separate setting for every single instrument. That would be outrageous :)


I'd find it hard to get the accuracy with my foot that I have with my hands but you did a great job. again that's another beauty in automation, do it however many times you have to to get it right. I certainly didn't do this automation in one pass. :cool:


Yeah, live players get to interact to balance in realtime. With virtual instruments its a one-way conversation and requires some juggling. That's for sure.


OK so you mixed a good balance of all instruments in a section and then later mixed all of the sections as well. Got it. Good idea. I would think it might be interesting to try adding a reverb for each section. If you re-read my loooong post, I did do this, I specifically talk about setting up an aux send to the Lexicon reverb on these group masters for additional reverb for certain phrases.

This might be a good way to utilize the stage location feature of Altiverb 5. Well, yes but only to ADD reverb to the sectional sound. If you do not have individual sends on each section, and only place the instruments into reverb at the group master, they will all have exactly the same amount of reverb, and that would not have near the affect for realism.



Fifteen years ago, I used to use hardware FX with an effect box on each synth and I'd use MIDI automation for many effects parameters. Everything including levels was totally automated. This was back in the days of Performer 2.7.

Well, I guess you could argue that the Lexicon FX is also somewhat of a "purist" approach too as its the box often used to "add" ambience to real orchestral recordings!
You are right, Lexicon is a huge part of the sound! :)


Talk about reality distortion.... well, I don't consider any good reverb to be distortion, distortion is a nasty, grungy, crackling, blown up type of sound, but then again, I do understand your intention for that comment. :)


OK I'll admit I was a bit of a skeptic with your "Compare" example but now I can clearly hear the comparison. You've really done an excellent job. Thanks very much for posting these.
Thanks alot Gregory!



So did you create a tempo map to match by hand? Or did you just run "free-flow"? I guess, I'd be inclined to make a "click track" and then adjust a tempo map to match the recorded music. Either way, its a tricky task!
I went over this in detail in my previoius long post. There is no way to use a tempo track. The fluctuation of phrasing and feeling between different instruments even in one measure is huge, perhaps this is a noteable thing to notice in this whole discussion, hmmmm maybe it's the use of these features that have allowed us to make music fast, but not really great music..... things to make you say hmmmmm? ;) A conductor track or tempo track would be a horrible way to approach something like this. It is easy to fall in love with all the gadgets and features that we have at our fingertips, but like I said earlier, sometimes you just have to dig in and get dirty.




Dan, thanks very much for sharing in detail. Its been quite interesting and I hope I didn't flood you with more feedback than you were expecting!
This response took a long time, but I feel it's worth it, if it helps someone make better music.
Thank you very much Gregory! :)


Cheers,
Gregory D. Moore

[synergy543]

I think in ten years we will not have any desire to use these programs. Look at the technology change in just the last year, WOW! Hi Dan,

Actually I have several sample libraries I bought close to ten years ago that are still quite useful (Miroslav, Symphony of Voices, ProSonus and Advanced Orchestra). The new libraries I have now sound even better and I don't expect that in ten years they will sound any worse. I think I'll still be happy to use them if I can load them.


I went over this in detail in my previoius long post. There is no way to use a tempo track. The fluctuation of phrasing and feeling between different instruments even in one measure is huge, perhaps this is a noteable thing to notice in this whole discussion, hmmmm maybe it's the use of these features that have allowed us to make music fast, but not really great music..... things to make you say hmmmmm? ;) A conductor track or tempo track would be a horrible way to approach something like this. It is easy to fall in love with all the gadgets and features that we have at our fingertips, but like I said earlier, sometimes you just have to dig in and get dirty.This is very interesting Dan. So as I understand it, you sync'd up to an existing recording just by ear ignoring measures and beats? Not having any "frame of reference" to align to would seem torturous. But it certainly worked for you! Using a tempo map doesn't require you to quantize to it. And I have noticed the best works I've heard have literally no notes that land precisely on the beat. So I understand well what you're referring too. There are just different approaches to achieving it.

I do clearly understand and agree with your red text comment . Its easy to make "fast food music" with samples but it takes as much work as with a real instrument to make samples really sound alive.


This response took a long time, but I feel it's worth it, if it helps someone make better music.
Thank you very much Gregory! :)Thanks Dan. Your focus on the music and not just the notes is what its all about. I look forward to hearing your work in the future and hope others will strive to reach the level you've achieved.

Gregory D. Moore

[DPDAN]

You are so kind Gregory!

Thank you!
dpDan :)